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Making Progress on the church acceptance front

Daniel DeLuca said:
@Julia Mykaele is not arguing against polygamy here. She is arguing against excessive wives, and I think she is right, but not for the reason that she stated.
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If God says He gave David his wives and David could have had more if he asked, did David have excessive wives making him a horrible father?
Julia Mykaele said:
David was a horrible father, maybe he never had much time for his children.
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God blessed David most graciously and told David He would have given him more if that had not been enough (2 Sam.12:8). God wasn't wrong then, and He isn't wrong now for giving a man more than one wife if He wills. We ought to take care not to be making any kind of negative assertions against others, and certainly against our holy God for His actions. James 4:12 There is one Lawgiver who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another? Just saying...
 
frederick said:
If God says He gave David his wives and David could have had more if he asked, did David have excessive wives making him a horrible father?

God blessed David most graciously and told David He would have given him more if that had not been enough (2 Sam.12:8). God wasn't wrong then, and He isn't wrong now for giving a man more than one wife if He wills. We ought to take care not to be making any kind of negative assertions against others, and certainly against our holy God for His actions. James 4:12 There is one Lawgiver who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another? Just saying...
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I already made the case that David was not a horrible father. The excessive amount I would be most concerned about, are the instances we had with Warren Jeffs, Joseph Smith, and Brigham Young.

Anyways, I think we should cut @Julia Mykaele some slack here. She is new. All of us have come to the knowledge of the truth through some sort of preconceived misconceptions. I see she went and clicked on the "Unlike" link, as I suggested. The initial post from @The truth seemed innocuous at first, so I don't think we should give her too much grief over that.
 
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Daniel DeLuca said:
I didn't include Solomon though, because in times of war, when there is a severe depletion of men,
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And I've seen a lot of christians saying they don't want to marry or have children because the world is a bad place lol -_-. In my opinion the world is better than before, the problem of the modern world is unbelief in Christ, feminism and individualism..
 
Julia Mykaele said:
And I've seen a lot of christians saying they don't want to marry or have children because the world is a bad place lol -_-. In my opinion the world is better than before, the problem of the modern world is unbelief in Christ, feminism and individualism..
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You know I and many others here want to have lots of children! You cannot really multiply by having only three. 2 times 1.5 is not the multiplication God had in mind, LOL.

EDIT: I want to pass this along to Tommy Nelson, pastor of Denton Bible Church...who said he wished he had had 12, but his one wife was only able to have two because of medical complications.
 
Daniel DeLuca said:
I wouldn't go so far as to call him a horrible father. He did poorly in his response to Amnon's raping of his half sister, and we can only speculate why, (after all what he had done was rather shameful to start with) but he did a great job with Solomon. Now Solomon clearly went overboard on the number of wives he had, but his children did not have any drama or acting out, or murder or whatever but then again, Nathan clearly told David the reason that he was about to experience the heartache and bloodshed that ensued. We can look at what Absalom did as poor parenting, or as backlash for the failure to respond to what Amnon did. Two other sons are mentioned, one of whom tried to usurp the throne and if he had not asked for Abishag to be his wife, Solomon would not have put him to death, but then again, blaming that on poor parenting, would be ignoring the judgment that Nathan pronounced, and the specific reason why that was announced, was that he (David) had taken Bathsheba to be his wife and had her husband killed by the Ammonites. One other son of David is mentioned, and he was Chileab, born to Abigail, and we never hear of anything good or bad about him, as he seems to have slipped off into relative obscurity.

I think we look at single mothers today, and see how many children raised in that environment, turn out to be poor adults in society, and extrapolate that to what we think would happen in a polygamous family where the man has too many wives. When we look at how large families actually turn out, Josh Duggat notwithstanding, and even he isn't as bad as a lot of those raised by single mothers, well, we can take a look at the Bountiful, and the guy has like 11 wives, and his children are quite industrious. We can look at Philip Sharp. These men do have flaws, but have managed to raise decent hard working children.
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I neglected to mention two other children David had, of whom we read nothing either positive or negative. I think it is safe to assume tthat he wasn't a horrible father to either of them.
 
Verifyveritas76 said:
Just curious if there is a number in general for you that equals too many, or it depends on the family dynamics or ?
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I don't have an adequate number. I think the man should decide how many children he would be able to educate.
The woman is good at taking care of children, but the man is better at applying the law.
Lack of paternal influence brings many problems.
I've heard that most men in prison are children of single mothers (but I've never researched this).
Today boys spend more time with women than with men, I believe that this is one of the reasons why boys are becoming more and more feminized. Only a man can teach a boy to be a man.
It also causes problems for girls, because they become more insecure and have low self-esteem. Read this text, it is very good.

http://www.bereanpatriot.com/how-ge...ed-every-great-civilization-in-world-history/
 
Daniel DeLuca said:
I already made the case that David was not a horrible father. The excessive amount I would be most concerned about, are the instances we had with Warren Jeffs, Joseph Smith, and Brigham Young.
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Those men are cult leaders. You could use the same argument against monogamous parents if you considered Joseph Stalin or Adolph Hitler's fathers and how those men turned out. There is no number of wives stated in the Bible as God's preferred number so it would be safer for us not to suggest we know better than God. Shalom
 
Julia Mykaele said:
I don't have an adequate number. I think the man should decide how many children he would be able to educate.
The woman is good at taking care of children, but the man is better at applying the law.
Lack of paternal influence brings many problems.
I've heard that most men in prison are children of single mothers (but I've never researched this).
Today boys spend more time with women than with men, I believe that this is one of the reasons why boys are becoming more and more feminized. Only a man can teach a boy to be a man.
It also causes problems for girls, because they become more insecure and have low self-esteem. Read this text, it is very good.

http://www.bereanpatriot.com/how-ge...ed-every-great-civilization-in-world-history/
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I think this is what you are saying, but apply to a family which is exactly what any reasonable father would do.

Luke 14:28
"Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won't you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it?
 
Julia Mykaele said:
I think the man should decide how many children he would be able to educate.
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Excellent point!
Some males think that lots of children educated by the State is a reasonable course of action. I don’t.

But one man can educate quite a few, if it’s done right. Consider the one-room schoolhouse presided over by the Schoolmarm. The key to teaching 15-25 kids was having the older ones spend part of their time teaching the littles. The synergism far exceeded the results that are available from our regimented system.
 
steve said:
The key to teaching 15-25 kids was having the older ones spend part of their time teaching the littles.
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Yes! Teaching the material helps reinforce the material for the older ones (one tends not to otherwise learn something like they do when they teach it*), and gives them experience teaching and dealing with children for later in life when they're the father or mother.... a wonderful combination.

*Many years ago I thought I knew how to do a certain thing the teacher didn't care to go into great detail on in class, but I spoke up about it, and was given the opportunity to go up to explain to the class how to it, if I was interested. I liked the topic, so I did, and I suddenly didn't seem to know it as well as I thought I did. I gained a new respect for what teachers do after that.
 
eye4them said:
Yes! Teaching the material helps reinforce the material for the older ones (one tends not to otherwise learn something like they do when they teach it*), and gives them experience teaching and dealing with children for later in life when they're the father or mother.... a wonderful combination.

*Many years ago I thought I knew how to do a certain thing the teacher didn't care to go into great detail on in class, but I spoke up about it, and was given the opportunity to go up to explain to the class how to it, if I was interested. I liked the topic, so I did, and I suddenly didn't seem to know it as well as I thought I did. I gained a new respect for what teachers do after that.
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Experience is the best teacher.
 
Julia Mykaele said:
http://www.bereanpatriot.com/how-ge...ed-every-great-civilization-in-world-history/
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Phenomenal article.

The event precipitating the fall of every great civilization in history [80 in this study] was the full legal emancipation of women (making them the legal equals of men).

A female emancipating movement is a cultural phenomenon of unfailing regularity; it appears to be the necessary outcome of absolute monogamy.

In other words, a Monogamy only culture will always result in the destruction of the Patriarchal structure, leading to an egalitarian structure that will inevitably and predictably result in the destruction of the home, an epidemic of fatherless children and husband less wives, a massive increase in crime and the ultimate implosion of that particular civilization. . . . . Every Time!


I am personally not convinced at this point that women have to be chattel or legal property to appreciate the benefits of a patriarchal family structure enough to prefer it, though it does seem that the majority in our era (that I am familiar with) who don’t subscribe to a patriarchal - ish authority structure are loose cannons who are consistently making worse and worse choices
 
Verifyveritas76 said:
Phenomenal article.

The event precipitating the fall of every great civilization in history [80 in this study] was the full legal emancipation of women (making them the legal equals of men).

A female emancipating movement is a cultural phenomenon of unfailing regularity; it appears to be the necessary outcome of absolute monogamy.

In other words, a Monogamy only culture will always result in the destruction of the Patriarchal structure, leading to an egalitarian structure that will inevitably and predictably result in the destruction of the home, an epidemic of fatherless children and husband less wives, a massive increase in crime and the ultimate implosion of that particular civilization. . . . . Every Time!


I am personally not convinced at this point that women have to be chattel or legal property to appreciate the benefits of a patriarchal family structure enough to prefer it, though it does seem that the majority in our era (that I am familiar with) who don’t subscribe to a patriarchal - ish authority structure are loose cannons who are consistently making worse and worse choices
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I agree great article.
 
frederick said:
Those men are cult leaders. You could use the same argument against monogamous parents if you considered Joseph Stalin or Adolph Hitler's fathers and how those men turned out. There is no number of wives stated in the Bible as God's preferred number so it would be safer for us not to suggest we know better than God. Shalom
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I think you completely missed my point. I think it is a good idea for church leaders to impose self limitation in order to avoid the scenario where they end up with all the ladies, even though that is not the point Paul was trying to make in I Tim 3:12, to veer this discussion somewhat back to where it started. Sure, not every man is qualified to marry, as Jesus pointed out in Matt 19, but in those cults, practically no one was qualified to marry, since all the potential wives belonged to the cult leader. We do have to look at the mistakes those cults made and make every effort to avoid making those mistakes ourselves.
 
Julia Mykaele said:
lol
Ok ... I take back what I said. David was a great father :D
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Well, I am not trying to argue that he was a great father, but rather that his failures had less to do with the number of wives he took, and more to do with his own moral failings, which led to inactivity after Amnon's wickedness, and resentment on the part of Absalom. He learned a hard lesson, but turned out to be a great father to Solomon, but not so much to Amnon.
 
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