Yes! That's it! Thanks Sweetie!
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Making Progress on the church acceptance front
- Thread starter Daniel DeLuca
- Start date
It's an inside joke for anyone who has a big family. The most frequent response to finding out how many children you have is, "You know what causes that right?" One of my goto responses is a dead pan, "No I don't, just can't seem to figure out how this keeps happening. Do you know?" Usually they get the joke.
My wife showed me this email from Mr H. last night. He apparently sent it shortly after our conversation, but I never have time to check my personal email. He apparently sent one a few months ago that I never saw until just now. I'll see if I have time to provide a complete response. I want to respond to him, but I also have to make sure I get my work done. I find it interesting, though not surprising that what I said "irked" him. After all, it kind of implies that he DOES make presumptions about why God has said certain things.
From: <Mr. H>
To: Daniel DeLuca
Subject: A phrase you should never use again
You've said "I do not presume on why God..." And it's irked me, so I'm going to explain why you should never use that phrase again.
To be blunt, what you're really saying when you say that phrase is "I have no idea how that fits into my theology or my view of God, and I'm too lazy to figure it out." I've always called it redneck theology, which is the theology of "I believe it, because my daddy told me so." You've just dressed it up with nice words, but it's still just as ignorant.
You then equated it to you telling your kid, "because I said so..." But that's intellectually and logically dishonest. At least I hope so for your sake and your sons' sake. Because typically as parents, "because I said so" is shorthand for I don't have time to explain 40 years of experience and logic to you right now before something bad happens to you. But behind every "because I said so" needs to be logic and reasoning. Otherwise, when your kid turns into a teenager, he's going to decide that A) "because I said so" really isn't good enough AND B) if Dad's wrong about this, then what else is he wrong about? Which results in an all out rebellion. By the time your kid is a teenager, he needs to have a basic understanding of what's behind the "because I said so" just like we as believers should have an understanding of the character of our king.
If your "because I said so" doesn't carry reasoning and logic behind it, then really you shouldn't have said so to begin with. And if it does, at some point, you need to help your child understand what that reasoning and logic is. Be careful using the "because I said so," because it's a good way for you to ultimately lose the respect of your kids if you're careless.
From a theological point of view, this redneck theology is one of the primary reasons why the church is in the state of disaster that it's in. We go around screaming at the top of our lungs that something is bad (gay marriage, women clergy, gambling, abortion, whatever it is, fill in the blanks as you want), but then we don't have the foggiest notion as to why. And then we wonder why a lost world laughs at us and rejects our theology. Because we are not able to present any logic behind it. And we lose any shred of credibility that we had. And worst of all, we embarrass our God and our King.
That phrase "I don't presume why God said..." should never be uttered again, because God's better than that, he's smarter than that, he's more logical than that and he deserves better representation from his people than that. Don't allow a lost world to lose respect for you and for the king you represent.
<Mr. H>
From: <Mr. H>
To: Daniel DeLuca
Subject: A phrase you should never use again
You've said "I do not presume on why God..." And it's irked me, so I'm going to explain why you should never use that phrase again.
To be blunt, what you're really saying when you say that phrase is "I have no idea how that fits into my theology or my view of God, and I'm too lazy to figure it out." I've always called it redneck theology, which is the theology of "I believe it, because my daddy told me so." You've just dressed it up with nice words, but it's still just as ignorant.
You then equated it to you telling your kid, "because I said so..." But that's intellectually and logically dishonest. At least I hope so for your sake and your sons' sake. Because typically as parents, "because I said so" is shorthand for I don't have time to explain 40 years of experience and logic to you right now before something bad happens to you. But behind every "because I said so" needs to be logic and reasoning. Otherwise, when your kid turns into a teenager, he's going to decide that A) "because I said so" really isn't good enough AND B) if Dad's wrong about this, then what else is he wrong about? Which results in an all out rebellion. By the time your kid is a teenager, he needs to have a basic understanding of what's behind the "because I said so" just like we as believers should have an understanding of the character of our king.
If your "because I said so" doesn't carry reasoning and logic behind it, then really you shouldn't have said so to begin with. And if it does, at some point, you need to help your child understand what that reasoning and logic is. Be careful using the "because I said so," because it's a good way for you to ultimately lose the respect of your kids if you're careless.
From a theological point of view, this redneck theology is one of the primary reasons why the church is in the state of disaster that it's in. We go around screaming at the top of our lungs that something is bad (gay marriage, women clergy, gambling, abortion, whatever it is, fill in the blanks as you want), but then we don't have the foggiest notion as to why. And then we wonder why a lost world laughs at us and rejects our theology. Because we are not able to present any logic behind it. And we lose any shred of credibility that we had. And worst of all, we embarrass our God and our King.
That phrase "I don't presume why God said..." should never be uttered again, because God's better than that, he's smarter than that, he's more logical than that and he deserves better representation from his people than that. Don't allow a lost world to lose respect for you and for the king you represent.
<Mr. H>
And here is my response:
I can understand why that irks you, because it implicitly points out that that is exactly what you are doing, and that is to your shame. I love you man, but we should NEVER go outside of what Scripture clearly tells us. I told you this in our face to face meeting, and I will say it again. You are unable to find confirmation of this legalistic bias that you have against polygyny, and so you want to squeeze it out of Scripture where Scripture is at best silent. This is classic Eisegesis. If you would simply read and understand the Scripture for what it says, (i.e. Exegesis) you would be forced to acknowledge that there is nothing wrong with polygyny. It is going beyond Scripture that led to the RCC adopting all kinds of heresies, including praying to (or as they like to say "through") Mary, and the doctrine of transubstantiation. You can chronicle this for yourself and see how some of these doctrines were actually introduced by people we have always respected as church fathers. Legalistic monogamy is no different.
I have a couple of links to address some of the points you made the other day:
https://biblicalfamilies.org/resources/biblical/common-objections#165410
https://biblicalfamilies.org/resources/biblical/common-objections#165411
I resent being labelled as intellectually lazy. I am not trying to boast, but I have read through the entirety of Scripture multiple times over in both the KJV and NIV, and have memorized numerous passages of Scripture, including the entirety of quite a few epistles in the New Testament. I knew you were off the other day, when you were referring to the Benjamites in Judges 20:16, and had them confused with David's mighty men. I am quite familiar with that story of how a war was fought after a man's concubine was gang raped by the men of a particular city, and how all Israel went to fight against the Benjamites, and ultimately devastated them. Trust me man! I know the Word of God, and I am NOT lazy in my efforts to seek out what God has clearly said!
When I spoke of telling my son, "Because I said so", there was nothing intellectually or logically dishonest about that! I can trust that God knows best, and I don't question His authority, because I know and believe the truth of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the Hydroplate Theory confirms for me, that the Genesis account of the global flood is true. You know that when Abraham was told to leave Ur, he didn't ask God why! He didn't even ask why God wanted him to sacrifice his son Isaac! He trusted and obeyed, and he was called the friend of God. I suppose you could ridicule him as the ultimate redneck, but there really is no such thing as redneck theology. There is only the Word of God, vs philosophies handed down to us by human reasoning and fine sounding arguments that go outside the Word of God.
If God sees fit to tell me why, I listen to what He says. I could turn around and ask why for instance God wants to raise godly offspring or why He thinks men having sexual relations with other men is an abomination, and that would be just like my teenager. You don't have teenagers, so you won't be able to relate. I tell my son the reason, and he wants to know why for the reason I just gave him. It is incessant. That is what you have to look forward to, and I pray you will have the wisdom you need so that you won't fall into the trap of trying to answer every why your children throw at you. The fact is, my son knows that the Bible is true, and he knows why the Bible can be trusted, and doesn't need human reasoning, or any of this whole cockamamie, "Oh God loves us but gives us free choice" crap that you hear all the time in church, which simply doesn't sell when kids go off to college. This idea that we have to portray God as some sort of Omni-benevolent being in order to get people to like Him, and come to Jesus, just doesn't hold up when we see all the suffering in the world. We don't come to God because He is nice, but because He is realm and He is true, and when we can't understand WHY He does what He does, we can still trust Him.
I have read the entirety of Malachi, and God clearly says why He desired to make them one, but you are looking for a different reason, because that simply does not fit your narrative. You parrot the same rhetoric about the purpose of marriage being some sort of picture, The fact is, God does have two wives, and one day they will be one in Him. The same is true about Jew and Gentile becoming one in Christ as we see in Eph 2:13-16. When Jesus spoke about the two becoming one in Matt 19:5, He immediately followed that up by saying that they are no longer two, but one. So just as Judah and Israel both become one with God, as he restores them to Himself, they are distinct apart from Him, inasmuch as the Jew and Gentile is distinct apart from Christ, but in Him, we become one. So it is incidental that marriage DOES create a picture of Christ and the church, but that goes beyond Scripture, to claim that this is the reason for marriage.
Paul said in Galatians 5, that it is for freedom that Christ has set us free, and then proceeds to tell us to stand firm, and not allow ourselves to be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. He applied this directly to circumcision, but there is no reason why this should not also be applied to ANY of the traditions of men that are not found in Scripture, especially traditions for which men and women set aside the commandments of God.
I gave you an opportunity to show me FROM SCRIPTURE that polygyny is wrong, but you keep wanting to play semantics. I looked up the meaning of ἁμαρτία and the Hebrew word as well, and "missing the mark" is only one of the many definitions used for that word, but it is never used in that sense in the NT, and the word used in Hebrew for not missing a "hair's width", is slightly different than the Hebrew word used for sin. Etymologically it may indeed have that root as its origin, but over and over again, it is used to describe an offense, whether that offense be directed at God or at a fellow man. Needless to say, you are on unstable hermetical ground, if you are going to use that definition to replace the definition found in I John 3:4, which clearly states that sin is the transgression of the Law.
The only logic we need, is to show proof of the existence of God and the veracity of His Word, and once that proof is out there to be seen, it doesn't matter if we understand why men sleeping with men is an an abomination in the sight of God, or any of the other sinful things we find in the Ten Commandments or Prov 6:16-19. If God is real, you can choose to follow Him or reject Him, but you do not get to choose the consequences for doing so, whether you like His decrees or not.
I can understand why that irks you, because it implicitly points out that that is exactly what you are doing, and that is to your shame. I love you man, but we should NEVER go outside of what Scripture clearly tells us. I told you this in our face to face meeting, and I will say it again. You are unable to find confirmation of this legalistic bias that you have against polygyny, and so you want to squeeze it out of Scripture where Scripture is at best silent. This is classic Eisegesis. If you would simply read and understand the Scripture for what it says, (i.e. Exegesis) you would be forced to acknowledge that there is nothing wrong with polygyny. It is going beyond Scripture that led to the RCC adopting all kinds of heresies, including praying to (or as they like to say "through") Mary, and the doctrine of transubstantiation. You can chronicle this for yourself and see how some of these doctrines were actually introduced by people we have always respected as church fathers. Legalistic monogamy is no different.
I have a couple of links to address some of the points you made the other day:
https://biblicalfamilies.org/resources/biblical/common-objections#165410
https://biblicalfamilies.org/resources/biblical/common-objections#165411
I resent being labelled as intellectually lazy. I am not trying to boast, but I have read through the entirety of Scripture multiple times over in both the KJV and NIV, and have memorized numerous passages of Scripture, including the entirety of quite a few epistles in the New Testament. I knew you were off the other day, when you were referring to the Benjamites in Judges 20:16, and had them confused with David's mighty men. I am quite familiar with that story of how a war was fought after a man's concubine was gang raped by the men of a particular city, and how all Israel went to fight against the Benjamites, and ultimately devastated them. Trust me man! I know the Word of God, and I am NOT lazy in my efforts to seek out what God has clearly said!
When I spoke of telling my son, "Because I said so", there was nothing intellectually or logically dishonest about that! I can trust that God knows best, and I don't question His authority, because I know and believe the truth of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the Hydroplate Theory confirms for me, that the Genesis account of the global flood is true. You know that when Abraham was told to leave Ur, he didn't ask God why! He didn't even ask why God wanted him to sacrifice his son Isaac! He trusted and obeyed, and he was called the friend of God. I suppose you could ridicule him as the ultimate redneck, but there really is no such thing as redneck theology. There is only the Word of God, vs philosophies handed down to us by human reasoning and fine sounding arguments that go outside the Word of God.
If God sees fit to tell me why, I listen to what He says. I could turn around and ask why for instance God wants to raise godly offspring or why He thinks men having sexual relations with other men is an abomination, and that would be just like my teenager. You don't have teenagers, so you won't be able to relate. I tell my son the reason, and he wants to know why for the reason I just gave him. It is incessant. That is what you have to look forward to, and I pray you will have the wisdom you need so that you won't fall into the trap of trying to answer every why your children throw at you. The fact is, my son knows that the Bible is true, and he knows why the Bible can be trusted, and doesn't need human reasoning, or any of this whole cockamamie, "Oh God loves us but gives us free choice" crap that you hear all the time in church, which simply doesn't sell when kids go off to college. This idea that we have to portray God as some sort of Omni-benevolent being in order to get people to like Him, and come to Jesus, just doesn't hold up when we see all the suffering in the world. We don't come to God because He is nice, but because He is realm and He is true, and when we can't understand WHY He does what He does, we can still trust Him.
I have read the entirety of Malachi, and God clearly says why He desired to make them one, but you are looking for a different reason, because that simply does not fit your narrative. You parrot the same rhetoric about the purpose of marriage being some sort of picture, The fact is, God does have two wives, and one day they will be one in Him. The same is true about Jew and Gentile becoming one in Christ as we see in Eph 2:13-16. When Jesus spoke about the two becoming one in Matt 19:5, He immediately followed that up by saying that they are no longer two, but one. So just as Judah and Israel both become one with God, as he restores them to Himself, they are distinct apart from Him, inasmuch as the Jew and Gentile is distinct apart from Christ, but in Him, we become one. So it is incidental that marriage DOES create a picture of Christ and the church, but that goes beyond Scripture, to claim that this is the reason for marriage.
Paul said in Galatians 5, that it is for freedom that Christ has set us free, and then proceeds to tell us to stand firm, and not allow ourselves to be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. He applied this directly to circumcision, but there is no reason why this should not also be applied to ANY of the traditions of men that are not found in Scripture, especially traditions for which men and women set aside the commandments of God.
I gave you an opportunity to show me FROM SCRIPTURE that polygyny is wrong, but you keep wanting to play semantics. I looked up the meaning of ἁμαρτία and the Hebrew word as well, and "missing the mark" is only one of the many definitions used for that word, but it is never used in that sense in the NT, and the word used in Hebrew for not missing a "hair's width", is slightly different than the Hebrew word used for sin. Etymologically it may indeed have that root as its origin, but over and over again, it is used to describe an offense, whether that offense be directed at God or at a fellow man. Needless to say, you are on unstable hermetical ground, if you are going to use that definition to replace the definition found in I John 3:4, which clearly states that sin is the transgression of the Law.
The only logic we need, is to show proof of the existence of God and the veracity of His Word, and once that proof is out there to be seen, it doesn't matter if we understand why men sleeping with men is an an abomination in the sight of God, or any of the other sinful things we find in the Ten Commandments or Prov 6:16-19. If God is real, you can choose to follow Him or reject Him, but you do not get to choose the consequences for doing so, whether you like His decrees or not.
From a theological point of view, this redneck theology is one of the primary reasons why the church is in the state of disaster that it's in. We go around screaming at the top of our lungs that something is bad (gay marriage, women clergy, gambling, abortion, whatever it is, fill in the blanks as you want), but then we don't have the foggiest notion as to why. And then we wonder why a lost world laughs at us and rejects our theology. Because we are not able to present any logic behind it. And we lose any shred of credibility that we had. And worst of all, we embarrass our God and our King.
Wow! This guy...I guess scripture really is lacking in the professing churches. Every one of those topics are addressed in the bible and can be easily defended. This guy Episcopalian?
2 Timothy 2:15 - Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. KJV
Oh... The world rejects our theology because they are blind and love their sin. Jesus does not bow to the world... One day every knee will bow to HIM!
Wow! This guy...I guess scripture really is lacking in the professing churches. Every one of those topics are addressed in the bible and can be easily defended. This guy Episcopalian?
2 Timothy 2:15 - Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. KJV
Oh... The world rejects our theology because they are blind and love their sin. Jesus does not bow to the world... One day every knee will bow to HIM!
He is a member of my church, Hyde Park Baptist, but you gotta wonder if he learned that from his upbringing. It's crazy to think that someone like that would believe that God's revealed Word is not enough reason to obey it.
He seems pretty smart, but you gotta wonder about his Biblical literacy sometimes. He likes to throw around the Greek and Hebrew terms, but I mean, if he was at all familiar with the Book of Job, he would see that Job's three friends think they have it all figured out, why a man like Job was suffering, and Job spends most of the book, defending himself, when he has an opportunity to do so. God never answers Job's "Why"s. He simply answers that Job wouldn't understand, even if God were to explain it to him. "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?" I told Mr. H that God's thoughts are higher than our thoughts, and he passed that off as a misapplication, since Paul uses that quote from Isaiah, to refer to the mystery of salvation, yet God doesn't always tell us why. Some mysteries He reveals, and others He chooses to conceal. So be it! Praise His Holy Name!
...He likes to throw around the Greek and Hebrew terms
I hear a lot of so called scholars in the Evanjelly world throw these around. Usually in a attempt to water down The Word or proof text their effeminate bow to feminism. Just recently I heard this done to water down the submission of wives to their husbands.
Hebrew and Greek being used to deepen understanding and conviction is one thing, but these guys are hoping that we stand in awe of them and their Greek and Hebrew as they twist The Scripture. When asked how they deal with the KJV on any topic they love to say... "Well, uh... what that really means is...". At that point it becomes extremely hard to either not throw up in my mouth or horse laugh in their face. They really do love their traditions.
I hear a lot of so called scholars in the Evanjelly world throw these around. Usually in a attempt to water down The Word or proof text their effeminate bow to feminism. Just recently I heard this done to water down the submission of wives to their husbands.
Hebrew and Greek being used to deepen understanding and conviction is one thing, but these guys are hoping that we stand in awe of them and their Greek and Hebrew as they twist The Scripture. When asked how they deal with the KJV on any topic they love to say... "Well, uh... what that really means is...". At that point it becomes extremely hard to either not throw up in my mouth or horse laugh in their face. They really do love their traditions.
Wow that letter was insufferable. And I find his redneck slur highly offensive. He hasn't a clue why the church is declining (because in part it's because of male shaming like he does).
'Because I said so' is what you tell children who still need to learn to obey, because explanation only invites debate. He want's logic for why he should follow a Biblical injunction/silence because he wants to dispute the reasons so he can avoid the injunction/speak where God is silent. It's him standing in judgement of God.
Because God says so is also what I tell Christians who aren't mature enough to understand/accept God's actual reasons. Often because God's reasons are offensive to their worldly presuppositions.
'Because I said so' is what you tell children who still need to learn to obey, because explanation only invites debate. He want's logic for why he should follow a Biblical injunction/silence because he wants to dispute the reasons so he can avoid the injunction/speak where God is silent. It's him standing in judgement of God.
Because God says so is also what I tell Christians who aren't mature enough to understand/accept God's actual reasons. Often because God's reasons are offensive to their worldly presuppositions.
Oh man! Mr. H has resorted to spewing venom! I knew it would come to this. I don't want to copy and paste this latest exchange, but he started throwing around insults and making wild accusations, and even advocated that my wife "clean my clock". I responded, and I'm sure he is not going to like what I have to say. I don't know what more there is to say. I would rather move on to a more receptive ear. I gave him the opportunity to show me where I am wrong from Scripture, but he punted on it. 
He thinks I need some sort of intervention! Well meaning blind folks who think they can lead the blind.
Just a suggestion, you might hold his feet to the fire on the “show me from scripture”. It would be interesting to see his response when you hold the line there. Just a simple, calm, “show me from scripture” to anything he tries to say. Or, “until you bother to show me from scripture, you’re wasting your breath and my time”. Show me from scripture.
Its amazing sometimes how people shut up when they are required to show scripture as a prerequisite for any further conversation. And there’s lots of ways to word this talking point.
Its amazing sometimes how people shut up when they are required to show scripture as a prerequisite for any further conversation. And there’s lots of ways to word this talking point.
Yes, this is precisely what put a stop to the accusations of adultery. I challenged those who were accusing me of adultery, when I took a second wife, to show me the biblical definition of adultery. I didn't let them avoid it and the accusations stopped.
Is that a reference to divorce court or is he wanting her to abuse you in order to force you to drop poly?
Oh do share that sounds so entertaining!
OK, Here goes:
Since you say you’re interested in the truth, here’s the truth. I wouldn’t care 2 wits about your theology of polygamy if it wasn’t going to destroy your marriage, your kids and your witness.
Your marriage is struggling because of this theology of yours. The 2nd most foundational statement of the law is love others like you love yourself. When you’re proclaiming your support for polygamy, what your wife hears is, “I need something more than I have right now.” If she said that to you, you’d be pissed and rightfully so. So is she. The truth is when you say that you desire another wife, you’re hurting her. Period. You owe her an apology. And flowers.
Your son is rejecting your faith, because he doesn’t see the logic in it. You’ve gone so far down the “because God said so” path, that you can’t explain to him why he should believe it. His stupid little friends that he likes to run around church with on Sundays while you’re sitting in service are filling his head with all kinds of garbage. And they are causing him to question what you say. If you can’t defend your beliefs with more than, “because that’s what I believe…” you’re going to lose him. You need to get your crap together and figure out some logic, because he’s not going to listen to you for much longer.
Your younger son is young enough to say, “Dad’s my hero.” So he’s ok with “because God said so…”… For now. There will come a day when he gets challenged to think for himself, and if you don’t build him a good foundation that’s actually defensible, you’re going to lose him.
Your witness at this point is dead, because the pagan world can’t stop laughing at your position. When a sexual freedom that you’re promoting has even the world shaking its head at you, red flags should be popping up everywhere. We’re talking about a pagan world that loves every sexual freedom there is, and even they see your position as absurd. You’re preaching a theology that promotes fleshly desires, and as a result your witness is not only dead and rotting, it’s toxic.
You say you’re familiar with the scripture, so I’m sure you can figure out where all of these things are coming from. Look, I care about you as a friend, but here is the truth. You know just enough about your position to try and defend it, but your theology as a whole is indefensible. You use “I don’t presume” as your line of defense, because you don’t even ask the right questions. If you go into the Bible looking to bolster your theology, that’s exactly what you’ll get out of it. The world loves to do that. Why don't you go into the Bible to learn the character of God so you’ll find out what he’s really like?
Get your crap together before it’s too late for your marriage, your kids and your witness.
If you haven’t already stopped reading, and you still want to argue, then I have one more question. What are you trying so hard to justify? Because as best as we can tell, it looks like you're trying to justify stepping out on your wife, and we would blame her if she cleaned your clock for it.
Since you say you’re interested in the truth, here’s the truth. I wouldn’t care 2 wits about your theology of polygamy if it wasn’t going to destroy your marriage, your kids and your witness.
Your marriage is struggling because of this theology of yours. The 2nd most foundational statement of the law is love others like you love yourself. When you’re proclaiming your support for polygamy, what your wife hears is, “I need something more than I have right now.” If she said that to you, you’d be pissed and rightfully so. So is she. The truth is when you say that you desire another wife, you’re hurting her. Period. You owe her an apology. And flowers.
Your son is rejecting your faith, because he doesn’t see the logic in it. You’ve gone so far down the “because God said so” path, that you can’t explain to him why he should believe it. His stupid little friends that he likes to run around church with on Sundays while you’re sitting in service are filling his head with all kinds of garbage. And they are causing him to question what you say. If you can’t defend your beliefs with more than, “because that’s what I believe…” you’re going to lose him. You need to get your crap together and figure out some logic, because he’s not going to listen to you for much longer.
Your younger son is young enough to say, “Dad’s my hero.” So he’s ok with “because God said so…”… For now. There will come a day when he gets challenged to think for himself, and if you don’t build him a good foundation that’s actually defensible, you’re going to lose him.
Your witness at this point is dead, because the pagan world can’t stop laughing at your position. When a sexual freedom that you’re promoting has even the world shaking its head at you, red flags should be popping up everywhere. We’re talking about a pagan world that loves every sexual freedom there is, and even they see your position as absurd. You’re preaching a theology that promotes fleshly desires, and as a result your witness is not only dead and rotting, it’s toxic.
You say you’re familiar with the scripture, so I’m sure you can figure out where all of these things are coming from. Look, I care about you as a friend, but here is the truth. You know just enough about your position to try and defend it, but your theology as a whole is indefensible. You use “I don’t presume” as your line of defense, because you don’t even ask the right questions. If you go into the Bible looking to bolster your theology, that’s exactly what you’ll get out of it. The world loves to do that. Why don't you go into the Bible to learn the character of God so you’ll find out what he’s really like?
Get your crap together before it’s too late for your marriage, your kids and your witness.
If you haven’t already stopped reading, and you still want to argue, then I have one more question. What are you trying so hard to justify? Because as best as we can tell, it looks like you're trying to justify stepping out on your wife, and we would blame her if she cleaned your clock for it.
To which I responded:
You are way out of line mister, and this is precisely what I was telling you I had NO INTENTION of dealing with crap like this from people like yourself! You told me that you didn't really mean that you were going to be harsh, but your vitriol is on display for all to see.
My marriage has never been better, so if that's your concern, then we can just end this discussion right here, because you aren't interested in the truth. Polygamy has never ended a marriage. It is the jealousy and bitterness and selfishness that monogamy promotes, that ends marriage. Show me one polygamous man, who ended his marriage to one of his wives, who did not commit adultery! I can show you plenty of wives who left their polygamous husbands, and that is because they wanted monogamy! Monogamy destroys marriages, brother! You ought to turn your concerns onto yourself!
If my wife ever told me that she needs somebody better than myself, I would take that as a challenge to be a better man. I would not get the least bit upset about it! I have worked with her on not getting angry over something like this, and helped her to see that this anger that you speak of, comes from the pit of hell! There are times when things need to be said that may hurt, but ultimately bring a relationship to the right place where it needs to be, and thankfully, my wife has come to understand that I dearly love her. I love that woman to death, and she knows it, albeit sometimes she needs reminders, but that was true even before I discovered the truth about polygamy! My love for her will never diminish one bit, whether God brings another wife into our family, or not!
You know nothing about my son, and calling his friends "stupid" shows the epitome of your classless baseless behavior. You ought to concern yourself with your own witness, because the venom you spew doesn't sound like something that would come from a true follower of Christ. Mu son is solid in his faith, because I have established a foundation for why we know that Scripture is true, but you wouldn't know that, because you haven't spent time with him. My son fills his friends' head with the knowledge of the truth, and we know this, because we have them over at our place all the time. I also speak to his friends as opportunity comes along, so I have the same opportunity to reach them as he does. You have no clue how he has come along and helped that young woman we have been bringing to church, from where she was, to where she is today. My son mocks the ways of this sinful world, and he learned to do so, from his father. As for my little one, I am building the same foundation for him that I have built for his brother, and when we have more children, I will do the same for them as well.
You have no clue how the pagan world reacts to my position. I could care less how much they laugh. I have made those who try to mock the truth, look like a buffoon, time and time again. How you managed to change the topic of this discussion from polygamy, to sexual freedom, is baffling. I never said anything about sexual freedom. I am talking about MARRIAGE freedom from unbiblical traditions of men! The feminized world shakes its head at what I have to say, because they have embraced the lie that men and women are basically the same. That is to their shame, and you should have no part in that, nor take their side in this debate, but that is precisely what you have done. I find it no wonder that the sheep follow their pastor who makes the unbiblical claim that his wife is the neck, essentially promoting the notion that it is OK for the wife to usurp the husband's authority in the home, but I probably shouldn't expect you to grasp that concept. This same pastor said that if he wants to remain married a little longer, he has to change his clothes in the garage. I think you should be more concerned about his marriage than mine!
The theology found in Scripture, the plain truths of Scripture, have nothing to do with promoting fleshly desires, but rather God given desires, and responsibility to the women that He gives you; nothing more; nothing less. I share the gospel with people all the time, but I am not about to show people a counterfeit gospel that incorporates man-made traditions and rules that neither we, nor our fathers have been able to keep and ultimately have led people to disobey God, destroying countless homes and raising up a generation of people that hate God. Let that sink in! My great-grandfather left his wife in order to maintain monogamy, and he did this a second time. That sin repeated itself in my grandfather, who committed suicide because his wife threatened to leave him. It was monogamy that threatened that marriage, not polygamy! Neither of them knew anything about what Scripture says regarding polygamy. Don't even get me started on my father. Your theology is toxic, and I have seen it firsthand! Your theology leads a man that has a God given desire to marry another woman, to ditch his wife first. Your theology leads men to set aside the commandments of God, in order to placate the traditions of men.
I have defended my position quite well. We can discuss this using Scripture, or you can go outside Scripture and employ your own rationalization. Did you not read the Book of Job? The whole book, his three friends think they have God all figured out, and in the end, God never answers Job's "Why". He simply asks Job, "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the world?" God could answer all our "why"s, but we wouldn't understand it. So no! I did not misuse Scripture when I said that God's thoughts are higher than our thoughts, and His ways are higher than our ways. You have a feel-good religion, and countless young people go off to college and have their feel-good religion destroyed by a professor who can see through that thin veneer.
I am not justifying anything! I have no ability to justify anything. Only Christ can justify sin. Sin is the only thing that needs to be justified, and since you have abysmally failed to make the case that polygamy is sin, what leads you to conclude that I am trying to justify that which needs no justification whatsoever? Where you come up with this notion that I ever intend to step out on my wife or wives, is from your own imagination. Maybe you are projecting. Maybe that is your intent, since you are assuming that I would ever do such a thing.
I know you intended to say "wouldn't", and that shows your lack of character. You see, Scripture tells us to be kind to one another, but you are advocating having my wife "clean my clock", which is a figure of speech for a very unkind and disrespectful action, especially on the part of a wife towards her husband. You should repent my friend! That is not Christ-like whatsoever! Jesus said "By their fruits, you shall know them". Your fruit is rotten to the core!
You are way out of line mister, and this is precisely what I was telling you I had NO INTENTION of dealing with crap like this from people like yourself! You told me that you didn't really mean that you were going to be harsh, but your vitriol is on display for all to see.
My marriage has never been better, so if that's your concern, then we can just end this discussion right here, because you aren't interested in the truth. Polygamy has never ended a marriage. It is the jealousy and bitterness and selfishness that monogamy promotes, that ends marriage. Show me one polygamous man, who ended his marriage to one of his wives, who did not commit adultery! I can show you plenty of wives who left their polygamous husbands, and that is because they wanted monogamy! Monogamy destroys marriages, brother! You ought to turn your concerns onto yourself!
If my wife ever told me that she needs somebody better than myself, I would take that as a challenge to be a better man. I would not get the least bit upset about it! I have worked with her on not getting angry over something like this, and helped her to see that this anger that you speak of, comes from the pit of hell! There are times when things need to be said that may hurt, but ultimately bring a relationship to the right place where it needs to be, and thankfully, my wife has come to understand that I dearly love her. I love that woman to death, and she knows it, albeit sometimes she needs reminders, but that was true even before I discovered the truth about polygamy! My love for her will never diminish one bit, whether God brings another wife into our family, or not!
You know nothing about my son, and calling his friends "stupid" shows the epitome of your classless baseless behavior. You ought to concern yourself with your own witness, because the venom you spew doesn't sound like something that would come from a true follower of Christ. Mu son is solid in his faith, because I have established a foundation for why we know that Scripture is true, but you wouldn't know that, because you haven't spent time with him. My son fills his friends' head with the knowledge of the truth, and we know this, because we have them over at our place all the time. I also speak to his friends as opportunity comes along, so I have the same opportunity to reach them as he does. You have no clue how he has come along and helped that young woman we have been bringing to church, from where she was, to where she is today. My son mocks the ways of this sinful world, and he learned to do so, from his father. As for my little one, I am building the same foundation for him that I have built for his brother, and when we have more children, I will do the same for them as well.
You have no clue how the pagan world reacts to my position. I could care less how much they laugh. I have made those who try to mock the truth, look like a buffoon, time and time again. How you managed to change the topic of this discussion from polygamy, to sexual freedom, is baffling. I never said anything about sexual freedom. I am talking about MARRIAGE freedom from unbiblical traditions of men! The feminized world shakes its head at what I have to say, because they have embraced the lie that men and women are basically the same. That is to their shame, and you should have no part in that, nor take their side in this debate, but that is precisely what you have done. I find it no wonder that the sheep follow their pastor who makes the unbiblical claim that his wife is the neck, essentially promoting the notion that it is OK for the wife to usurp the husband's authority in the home, but I probably shouldn't expect you to grasp that concept. This same pastor said that if he wants to remain married a little longer, he has to change his clothes in the garage. I think you should be more concerned about his marriage than mine!
The theology found in Scripture, the plain truths of Scripture, have nothing to do with promoting fleshly desires, but rather God given desires, and responsibility to the women that He gives you; nothing more; nothing less. I share the gospel with people all the time, but I am not about to show people a counterfeit gospel that incorporates man-made traditions and rules that neither we, nor our fathers have been able to keep and ultimately have led people to disobey God, destroying countless homes and raising up a generation of people that hate God. Let that sink in! My great-grandfather left his wife in order to maintain monogamy, and he did this a second time. That sin repeated itself in my grandfather, who committed suicide because his wife threatened to leave him. It was monogamy that threatened that marriage, not polygamy! Neither of them knew anything about what Scripture says regarding polygamy. Don't even get me started on my father. Your theology is toxic, and I have seen it firsthand! Your theology leads a man that has a God given desire to marry another woman, to ditch his wife first. Your theology leads men to set aside the commandments of God, in order to placate the traditions of men.
I have defended my position quite well. We can discuss this using Scripture, or you can go outside Scripture and employ your own rationalization. Did you not read the Book of Job? The whole book, his three friends think they have God all figured out, and in the end, God never answers Job's "Why". He simply asks Job, "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the world?" God could answer all our "why"s, but we wouldn't understand it. So no! I did not misuse Scripture when I said that God's thoughts are higher than our thoughts, and His ways are higher than our ways. You have a feel-good religion, and countless young people go off to college and have their feel-good religion destroyed by a professor who can see through that thin veneer.
I am not justifying anything! I have no ability to justify anything. Only Christ can justify sin. Sin is the only thing that needs to be justified, and since you have abysmally failed to make the case that polygamy is sin, what leads you to conclude that I am trying to justify that which needs no justification whatsoever? Where you come up with this notion that I ever intend to step out on my wife or wives, is from your own imagination. Maybe you are projecting. Maybe that is your intent, since you are assuming that I would ever do such a thing.
I know you intended to say "wouldn't", and that shows your lack of character. You see, Scripture tells us to be kind to one another, but you are advocating having my wife "clean my clock", which is a figure of speech for a very unkind and disrespectful action, especially on the part of a wife towards her husband. You should repent my friend! That is not Christ-like whatsoever! Jesus said "By their fruits, you shall know them". Your fruit is rotten to the core!
Wow you made him mad!
That is delusional.
That's a mind virus.
Truth!
Two thumbs up for "when".
That is delusional.
That's a mind virus.
Truth!
Two thumbs up for "when".
Hmmm.... Maybe you could have avoided the subtle nuances and gone straight for the king hit!
LOL! He set hyimself up for that. I baited him and he took the bait. I can just see him frothing at the mouth!Hmmm.... Maybe you could have avoided the subtle nuances and gone straight for the king hit!