Making Progress on the church acceptance front

[rockfox]

They had nothing to do with it. They are no longer part of the class, but when they were, they were staunch opponents of the homosexual agenda/movement.

So were the ones I'm talking about. It was mere cover. Are you sure they had nothing to do with it given the pro-homosexual sentiment you're seeing came out of that group?

Instead, he brought up, fighting the urge to eat twinkies, as an example of opposition we might face. I was aghast! I emailed him on that. He responded by saying he thought the people got the point.

Wow, talk about a milquetoast.

#3) He has his own interdenominational agenda, this prayer movement he keeps harping on, and he fears alienating leaders from other denominations whom he wants to be part of this prayer movement. He is convinced that if he can get enough people to engage in 24/7 prayer, city wide, revival will come. That sounds good in theory, but OTOH, is also comes across as a gimmick.

That could be it. The urge for fame/power/influence/'doing good for the kingdom' is a strong siren song.

The problem is, God hears those who repent and who desire holiness. Can't get that when looking the other way about the biggest sins in the culture and the church. Revival comes when the spirit wills, and rarely because people desire it specifically. Most of the time it comes across to me as a gimick as well. That or as a desperation move. But rarely do people build the groundwork necessary for it in repentance and holiness.

 

[PeteR]

Revival comes when the spirit wills, and rarely because people desire it specifically.

Yeah... Running joke between my wife and me is the quip, 'Hey, look, they scheduled the Holy Spirit this week,' anytime we see a church sign announcing 'revival' or 'Holy Ghost revival' or some such...

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

So were the ones I'm talking about. It was mere cover. Are you sure they had nothing to do with it given the pro-homosexual sentiment you're seeing came out of that group?

No. Those two I am referring to, knew deliverance from that lifestyle, and were happy to be free from it, and shared their testimonies with the class.

Wow, talk about a milquetoast.

Indeed!

That could be it. The urge for fame/power/influence/'doing good for the kingdom' is a strong siren song.

The problem is, God hears those who repent and who desire holiness. Can't get that when looking the other way about the biggest sins in the culture and the church. Revival comes when the spirit wills, and rarely because people desire it specifically. Most of the time it comes across to me as a gimick as well. That or as a desperation move. But rarely do people build the groundwork necessary for it in repentance and holiness.

Preach brother!

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

Yeah... Running joke between my wife and me is the quip, 'Hey, look, they scheduled the Holy Spirit this week,' anytime we see a church sign announcing 'revival' or 'Holy Ghost revival' or some such...

Some of y'all know I have been a big fan of Wayne Watson:

 

[rockfox]

Yeah... Running joke between my wife and me is the quip, 'Hey, look, they scheduled the Holy Spirit this week,' anytime we see a church sign announcing 'revival' or 'Holy Ghost revival' or some such...

They call it that because 150 years ago a preacher set up a tent to preach to people or visited a church or spoke in a theater and big things happened; so they figure if they keep doing the same thing it will work. Classic going through the motions. Glorying in the past. Cargo cult Christianity. Lots of churches are mausoleums to the days of glory past when the Holy Spirit still yet moved among them.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

I get the impression that they get some sort of hollow satisfaction out of getting the bulk of the faithful to come forward and pray, when they go for long spells with very few new converts to the faith. The optics take precedence over real revival.

 

[rockfox]

I get the impression that they get some sort of hollow satisfaction out of getting the bulk of the faithful to come forward and pray, when they go for long spells with very few new converts to the faith. The optics take precedence over real revival.

Well the 20th century with it's pray a prayer form of conversion has taught them that that is real revival. Never mind we've known for 30 years that method rings hollow.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

Well there is an elderly lady in our church; we'll call her Mrs. D. she is a widow of many years. I often give her hugs, and she always appreciates them. She says that she misses her deceased husband, and the hugs always remind her of him. This past Sunday, both my wife and I have her a hug, and she told us something very interesting. She has a long time friend, whose wife has dementia. She offered to go over there and help him with his wife. Mrs. D. said that he used to be a pastor, but with his wife's dementia, he has been unable to preach. He has prepared sermons, and was unable to deliver those sermons to his people. Mrs. D. told us about how lonely she is, and that she is hoping this pastor friend of hers will accept her offer.

I reached out to her on Facebook, because of the muzzle the church has on me with regard to speaking about polygamy while on the church premises, but she has not responded to me. I tried to get her to join us for lunch, but she had other obligations. I am hopeful that I can encourage her to ecplore this possibility, and I will let her know that I have her back. I am willing to start a brand new church, just to acommodate her and her potential new husband, but I will continue to attend the virtual Bible Study class that we have been a part of. The funny thing is, I never agreed to keep silent about polygamy while in a Zoom meeting, and I have spoken out about this while at class functions. The head of the Bible Study group meetings, often pops in, since each class meets at different times, and he knows my views, as he is the one that my wife and I sat down with at a Starbucks, to discuss this. It will be very interesting to see how he and the church responds to what will take place, when the time comes for me to speak up in defense of Mrs. D.

 

[FollowingHim]

@Daniel DeLuca, can I just suggest not pushing this too much with this lady? You've thrown the topic out there on Facebook, I'd leave it at that. She can investigate further if she likes. If you push it, she may get the feeling that her friendship with this former pastor could be perceived as an indecent affair, given you've obviously perceived it in a sexual / marital way, and give up on the entire idea of helping him just to avoid bad public impressions. There is a risk you could do more harm than good if you press this.

Far better for her to spend increasing amounts of time with him on her own terms, and leave God to develop this. You sowing the seed simply means it is there for God to grow if He so chooses, in His time.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

@Daniel DeLuca, can I just suggest not pushing this too much with this lady? You've thrown the topic out there on Facebook, I'd leave it at that. She can investigate further if she likes. If you push it, she may get the feeling that her friendship with this former pastor could be perceived as an indecent affair, given you've obviously perceived it in a sexual / marital way, and give up on the entire idea of helping him just to avoid bad public impressions. There is a risk you could do more harm than good if you press this.

Far better for her to spend increasing amounts of time with him on her own terms, and leave God to develop this. You sowing the seed simply means it is there for God to grow if He so chooses, in His time.

Well the funny thing is, she explained it to us as if she wanted someone to accept her actions. She explained it as if we might be inclined to react negatively towards the idea. My response on Facebook, and if and when we can meet with her off the premises of the church, was, and will be in such a way as to give her the impression that it is her idea to move forward with this, and that we are just agreeing with it. I agree that the nudging in the right direction should be gentle, but I am not sure she actually uses her FB account, or at least the IM feature. She has two of them, and I sent the same message on both, but I sent IMs to her last year that she never responded to. I at least want to confirm that she received my message of support, and of course, if not, I am hopeful that she will do lunch with us after church where I can discuss this with her, gently of course.

 

[cnystrom]

Should be interesting...

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

We had an interesting discussion on Isaiah 65 and 66 yesterday. Clearly it is a post-apocalyptical prophecy, so we read some of Revelation 21 as well. I pointed out that children will be born as Isaiah speaks of no more infants dying. I got the class leader a bit flustered, because he kept going back to the passages that say that there is no marriage in heaven, but he didn't want to acknowledge that this is not the same thing as not having sex. It got me to thinking that perhaps there is a lot more validity to the claim that fornication is not what the church has always claimed that it is, than I have been willing to embrace.

The class leader did acknowledge that Gen 6 is about the angels having sex with women, because he was trying to claim that we will be like the angels, and therefore won't have the desire for sex. He ultimately resigned himself to the standard "I am not a theologian and I don't have all the answers." I love questioning assumptions that have always been held to be true, even when they are not really backed up by Scripture, as much as people would like to think they are. I did also manage to insert a remark about what marriage was considered to be in Biblical times. I knew they couldn't dispute the claim that back then, marriage was a contract. That was fun, and I am sure it got some people to thinking, rather than just accepting the commonly held beliefs.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

View attachment 1161
[no don't actually get one of these, I just found the situation so absurd it warranted a tshirt]

I have been thinking about getting one of these, not to wear around church, mind you, but now that my wife is on board, it might be good to have something to wear to the grocery store or when going out for a walk.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

On Sunday, we talked with someone at church, and we invited them to lunch with us. He said he was unable to go, but he took a rain check. I am not at liberty to disclose too much info at the moment. If all goes well, we will have lunch with them on Sunday. That ought to be fun!

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

Well silent persistence seems to have paid off. I cashed in on the rain check and we had a great conversation! Due to his position at the church, I don't want to say too much, lest prying eyes take notice. I did warn him that he could lose his position, if he were to come out in support of what we discussed. We will have to see where this goes.

EDIT: I also explained to him that this was the reason why I was no longer in the orchestra and that I was not allowed to discuss this on the church property.

 

[frederick]

Well silent persistence seems to have paid off.

Excellent news. Yeah, if you don't make it like you're on a crusade to make converts it stays simple. Last year I introduced my second wife to one of my mates from way-back. He now knows both my wives and I've discovered he has told others about us. There haven't been any problems from it yet but he's not a Christian and neither are the people he's told. They all seem to accept it as me being that weird religious guy.

 

[Keith Martin]

Excellent news. Yeah, if you don't make it like you're on a crusade to make converts it stays simple. Last year I introduced my second wife to one of my mates from way-back. He now knows both my wives and I've discovered he has told others about us. There haven't been any problems from it yet but he's not a Christian and neither are the people he's told. They all seem to accept it as me being that weird religious guy.

I laughed out loud when I read this, because it resonated with why I have never been particularly worried about the scenario when people would find out that I have more than one wife at a time: just about anyone who knows me at all simply expects me to be weird, so it's unlikely that they'd waste too much time giving me grief about something after the fact.

Love what you wrote about avoiding being on a crusade. It's that whole thing about how the best way to avoid getting caught or confronted for doing something is to just go about your life as if there's absolutely no reason to question what you're doing.

 

[frederick]

Love what you wrote about avoiding being on a crusade. It's that whole thing about how the best way to avoid getting caught or confronted for doing something is to just go about your life as if there's absolutely no reason to question what you're doing.

Thanks Keith. Yes, I came to realise that it makes things a lot simpler if we are just normal... .

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

It also helps in Christian circles, when you know the Scriptures forward and backwards, and develop a reputation for being "that guy" who can quote it, who can answer all the trivia, and knows which chapter and verse. It doesn't hurt to be able to talk about ways in which God has worked in your life and how you have seen Him accomplish great things that the average Christian who just shows up on Sunday (or Saturday for some of you ) has never experienced.

 

[frederick]

It also helps in Christian circles, when you know the Scriptures forward and backwards, and develop a reputation for being "that guy" who can quote it, who can answer all the trivia, and knows which chapter and verse. It doesn't hurt to be able to talk about ways in which God has worked in your life and how you have seen Him accomplish great things that the average Christian who just shows up on Sunday (or Saturday for some of you ) has never experienced.

Oh yeah!