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Mark, the long and short of it...

Slumberfreeze said:
I think sorcery is a bit far to take it
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The emphasis was about how rebellion ,resting on one's own authority, is like the sin of sorcery. Once again it wasn't a reproach of you, just the mindset that many who make the same statement have. I'm a Childrens Pastor at a Charismatic church that works with other churches and I see that mindset all the time. In the pass I've tried to explain it this way. If the Sheriff of Kingdom county deputizes you to chase down and arrest Big Bad Stan in Kingdom county but you go to Rebellion county and start gunning down Big Bad Stan's gang, your going to be held accountable because you had authority to act according to the instructions you were given but choose to claim that authority as your own and do what you decide you want to do. It doesnt matter that Big Bad Stan's gang were outlaws and taking them out was a good thing. The authority to do so wasn't yours and you acted on your own behalf misrepresenting the Sheriff.
 
@Asforme&myhouse So your trying to cut out the good 20% because of the bad 80%? Should we cut out Polygamy because of the vast, vast majority, well more than 80% "Islam and Mormons" do it wrong? Should we stop eating because people over indulge and commit gluttony? God forbid. We don't live in reaction to what the enemy is doing. But that is exactly what you are doing.
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
I agree, it’s very easy to find this stuff. Miracles are no longer being done by God to bear witness to specific men.

TB Joshua is a false prophet. How do i know? He has prophesied things that didn’t happen. One of the biggest issues I have with the Charismatic Movement is how easily they seem to embrace false prophets and false signs and wonders. They’re practically swimming in false prophets. Mike Bickle says that eighty percent of dreams, visions, words of knowledge, and prophecies in the Charismatic Movement are false. YOU READ THAT CORRECTLY, 80%. That’s a lot of false prophets! Frankly, I think he is grossly underestimating it, I think the number is substantially higher than that. How can a Movement be of God that, according to leaders within the movement, averages 80% false prophecies, when God has a zero tolerance policy for false prophecies and false prophets?
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Wouldn't the other side of that coin be how could a movement be of God that has a form of Godliness but denies the power thereof be of God? One is just as perverse as the other. Ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth is a good descriptor of the modern American Church.
 
Soldier's Psalm said:
Wouldn't the other side of that coin be how could a movement be of God that has a form of Godliness but denies the power thereof be of God? One is just as perverse as the other. Ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth is a good descriptor of the modern American Church.
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To what Movement are you referring?
 
Any movement that denies the power of God by doing away with parts of the five fold ministry, gifts, Holy Spirit, ect.... Most Church's don't have a problem with most of the Bible. Most do have problems however with the parts talking about the Power of God and his desired ways to display it and use it among his people. God said he doesn't do anything unless he first reveals it to his prophets. Theologies cut out prophets even though God said he used them and that they are a display of his power. Same with Apostles. Pastors, teachers and evangelist aren't walking in that level of Power so most everyone feels comfortable keeping them. These theologies have 3 of the 5 offices. They have a form but are denying the power.
 
Soldier's Psalm said:
Any movement that denies the power of God by doing away with parts of the five fold ministry, gifts, Holy Spirit, ect.... Most Church's don't have a problem with most of the Bible. Most do have problems however with the parts talking about the Power of God and his desired ways to display it and use it among his people. God said he doesn't do anything unless he first reveals it to his prophets. Theologies cut out prophets even though God said he used them and that they are a display of his power. Same with Apostles. Pastors, teachers and evangelist aren't walking in that level of Power so most everyone feels comfortable keeping them. These theologies have 3 of the 5 offices. They have a form but are denying the power.
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And what IS the power? Is it signs and wonders?
 
Exactly.


Word: dunamij

Pronounce: doo'-nam-is

Strongs Number: G1411

Orig: from 1410; force (literally or figuratively); specially, miraculous power (usually by implication, a miracle itself):--ability, abundance, meaning, might(-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle(-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work. G1410

Use: TDNT-2:284,186 Noun Feminine
 
It's the root we get the word dynamite from. That is what is used in 2 timothy 3:5 and is used for miracles.
 
A side note it is the word used when Jesus said tarry in Jerusalem and you will be induced with POWER from on high. He wasn't referring to salvation.
 
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I get the logic of what you are saying, but I think you are mistaken. Here is 2 Timothy chapter 3 in its entirety. Isn’t it interesting that the men chosen by Paul as an example of those who oppose the truth where two men known for performing signs and wonders??

2 Timothy 3:1-17 KJV
[1] This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
[2] For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
[3] Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
[4] Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
[5] Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
[6] For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
[7] Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
[8] Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
[9] But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men , as theirs also was. [10] But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
[11] Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. [12] Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
[13] But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
[14] But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them ;
[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
 
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At the end of 2 Timothy 3, Paul tells Timothy to hang on to the scriptures, and says nothing about the necessity of performing real signs and wonders.

In context, it sounds like the people that Paul is talking about would have no problem with signs and wonders, but would have a problem with the sufficiency of Scripture.
 
Soldier's Psalm said:
@Asforme&myhouse So your trying to cut out the good 20% because of the bad 80%? Should we cut out Polygamy because of the vast, vast majority, well more than 80% "Islam and Mormons" do it wrong? Should we stop eating because people over indulge and commit gluttony? God forbid. We don't live in reaction to what the enemy is doing. But that is exactly what you are doing.
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I’m saying there’s no baby in that bathwater.
 
Soldier's Psalm said:
@Asforme&myhouse So your trying to cut out the good 20% because of the bad 80%? Should we cut out Polygamy because of the vast, vast majority, well more than 80% "Islam and Mormons" do it wrong? Should we stop eating because people over indulge and commit gluttony? God forbid. We don't live in reaction to what the enemy is doing. But that is exactly what you are doing.
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If we used the biblical definition of a false prophet, the Charismatic Movement wouldn’t have any real ones.
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
I’m saying there’s no baby in that bathwater.
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I'm getting a little confused, please bear with me.
Are you saying God changed His ways? That He stopped using signs and micricales to show it is His will like he had done from Genesis.
Asforme&myhouse said:
If we used the biblical definition of a false prophet, the Charismatic Movement wouldn’t have any real ones.
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The only Prophet to refer to themself as a prophet as far as I can remember is Yeshua. It's always been other men who recognize Elohim working through the prophets by the signs He gave or prophecy. I'm always weary of a person who calls themself a prophet. Met a few who claim it. Wasn't fooled.

Are the signs going to just start back up in the last days. Remember most of the verses quoted about signs and wonders are in the context that it's the last of days. Since the Era they were spoken in was obviously not the last days we have no other choice ,other than saying scripture lied, to assume it was prophetic speech about the last days. This makes sense to me because the False prophet will counterfeit signs and wonders. It's hard to counterfeit something that's not happening because there is nothing to base it off. The false signs will glorify the The False prophet were as signs and wonders glorifies Adonai.
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
Who was Jesus talking to when He said that?
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He was talking to everyone who would receive the Spirit. The Spirit doesn't come without Power as I guess you are saying he did or maybe we don't get him like we used too but... They were to wait for the Spirit, and with him the Power to perform miracles.
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
If we used the biblical definition of a false prophet, the Charismatic Movement wouldn’t have any real ones.
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I set under a real prophet who doesn't like to receive the title. You should try Perry Stone. You seem to have a real disdain for the charismatic movement. Bad history? I know there are a lot of people in it not doing what they are supposed too but then again, that is true of the whole body. I wouldn't let someone misusing the Roman Road keep me from Heaven... Don't let someone misusing or misrepresenting gifts let you fall short.
 
Kevin said:
The only Prophet to refer to themself as a prophet as far as I can remember is Yeshua. It's always been other men who recognize Elohim working through the prophets by the signs He gave or prophecy. I'm always weary of a person who calls themself a prophet. Met a few who claim it. Wasn't fooled.
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I agree 100%. All prophecy is Christ centered. Any prophet that puts the focus on himself is either a false prophet or as in Yeshua’s case He truly is The One that prophecy is all about.

Kevin said:
Are the signs going to just start back up in the last days. Remember most of the verses quoted about signs and wonders are in the context that it's the last of days. Since the Era they were spoken in was obviously not the last days we have no other choice ,other than saying scripture lied, to assume it was prophetic speech about the last days. This makes sense to me because the False prophet will counterfeit signs and wonders. It's hard to counterfeit something that's not happening because there is nothing to base it off. The false signs will glorify the The False prophet were as signs and wonders glorifies Adonai.
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I think this is a misconception. If someone starts making ‘brown bess’ reproduction muskets today, does it mean the original ‘brown bess’ muskets must still be in production? My point being that you can have fakes of something that happened while the twelve apostles were still walking the earth. Fake ones do not necessitate simultaneous real ones.
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
At the end of 2 Timothy 3, Paul tells Timothy to hang on to the scriptures, and says nothing about the necessity of performing real signs and wonders.

In context, it sounds like the people that Paul is talking about would have no problem with signs and wonders, but would have a problem with the sufficiency of Scripture.
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Pretty sure he said turn away from people who said miracles were dead.
 
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