I’m not saying that God has changed His ways, but that sometimes we don’t pay attention to how He does things. How many miracles occur in the Genesis time period? Did Adam perform any miracles? Did Abraham perform any miracles? Noah? Seth? Shem? Joseph? There are lots of godly men and women in scripture that never saw a single miracle, yet God was still working and orchestrating the lives of His servants.
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Mark, the long and short of it...
- Thread starter Asforme&myhouse
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I’m not saying that God has changed His ways, but that sometimes we don’t pay attention to how He does things. How many miracles occur in the Genesis time period? Did Adam perform any miracles? Did Abraham perform any miracles? Noah? Seth? Shem? Joseph? There are lots of godly men and women in scripture that never saw a single miracle, yet God was still working and orchestrating the lives of His servants.
I'm not sure why you posted this. It just furthers what I was saying. Jannes and Jambres had an answer for every miracle God wrought through Moses. Moses would do a miracle, they would have an answer as to why it wasn't real or they would counterfeit it. The verses you highlighted is Paul continuing the thought about turning away from those who deny the Power of God.
I realize where both of us are coming from, I’m just pointing out that the Gospel by definition is the story of Christ’s birth, life and death and resurrection and what that means for our salvation. This is contained within the first four “Gospels”. The rest of the New Testament is the history of the early church and how they spread the message of the first four books.
So . . . If the canon is to be restricted to the Gospel, then the rest of the NT can be kept with the Apocrypha. (Not that I believe this, just making the point)
One could also make the argument that those Godly Men and women had a special relationship in the fact that most of the ones mentioned were blessed to actually converse with Elohim. All of them knew who God was in times when man was calling on the name of Elohim starting with Seth. I count actually talking and walking with God as signs and wonders, I don't know if you do. It wasnt till man grew more distant from God by being more corrupt and sinful that He used prophets more.
Genesis 4:26
26 To Seth also a son was born, and he called his name Enosh. At that time people began to call upon the name of the Lord
There are noncanon accounts of Adam prophecing the destruction of the world twice once by flood and once by fire (read Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus, its an interesting read), Seth's pillars, Enoch prophecing the destruction of the world by flood, Noah was a prophet who actually talked to God, Shem was the Melkziedek (a prophet/high priest foreshadow of Messiah in pre-Talmudic midrashes that ended up in the Talmud), Abraham talked with God, Joseph prophecied. It seems where there's Men of faith all throughout scripture there's micricales of some sort. Once again some of these are noncanon so...... while I still hold the actually conversing with God mentioned in scripture is a sign.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the purpose of miracles and the testimonials of those who experience them are to point to Him so those who don't know Him.
Luke 24:33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
So its not just limited to the 11 “apostles”
I believe you may find upon rereading your reply that you have simply recommitted the exact same error while acknowledging. @Asforme&myhouse is speaking about all of the inspired books fo the New Testament, not iust the four first books. You can't make the argument that the closing of the canon would have cut parts of the canon if he is saying that all of the canon is actually canon. His point is that Revelation marks the close of the canon and so claiming that he risks losing Acts through Revelation is nonsensical. He is referring to the whole New Testament.
Finally, one true prophet among us!
The Gospel and the expounding of it are interwoven through the whole New Testament, and the Old Testament for that matter.
Hey man, post the video
Looked, couldn't find it. I saw it a very long time ago. But I do remember that it was an American missionary who was working in India.
Having met once with a pastor from India who worked in Muslim areas I can tell you there is a difference in kind to their faith. They don't have our problem of Christians who 'fall away'. The concept is almost foreign to them. They risk death to convert.
I too have huge problems with the Charismatic movement. But I'm not going to set my theology based on them but scripture and this:
Is not a statement grounded in scripture nor even in reality.
And yet God also had Christ and His apostles do miracles when they were preaching that Gospel.
Again with the sweeping generalizations. I'm not fan of that movement but that's not a statement you'd have any hope of even knowing is true.
He was talking to the people who would experience what He was foretelling. Did you have, as it were, a tongue of upon your head when you received the Holy Spirit? Did you start speaking the wonders of God in a language you had never studied and people who spoke that language heard you? I’m guessing your experience was a bit more tame than that. Why? Different Holy Spirit? Why was it different? Could it be that God choose to do things differently there for a specific purpose?
I know this was directed at Joe but I would also like to address this.
Metaphor
Becoming one Flesh for example.
All through out the Tanahk you'll find references to Rauch HaKodesh/Holy Spirit/Spirit of the Lord without the fiery tongues. At times other figurative speak that invoke imagery used to describe what's going on and on most occasions a bit more tame description of it. It depended on if something is trying to be emphasized like knowledge of unknown languages if a metaphor was used.
Numbers 27:18
So the Lord said to Moses, “Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him.
1 Samuel 16:12–13
So he sent word and had him come. Now he was ruddy-cheeked, with beautiful eyes and a handsome appearance.
Then Adonai said, “Arise, anoint him, for this is the one.” So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers. From that day on Ruach Adonai came mightily upon David. Then Samuel rose up and went to Ramah.
Exodus 31:2-5
“See, I have called by name Bezalel son of Uri son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with wisdom, understanding and knowledge in all kinds of craftsmanship, to make ingenious designs, to forge with gold, silver and bronze, as well as cutting stones for setting and carving wood, to work in all manner of craftsmanship.
Numbers 11:17
Then I will come down and speak with you there, and, I will take some of the Ruach that is on you and will place it on them. They will carry with you the burden of the people, so you will not be carrying it alone
Judges 6:34
But the Ruach Adonai cloaked Gideon, and he blew the shofar, and Abiezer rallied behind him.
Then there are other Gospel examples.
- Mary, Jesus' mother -- "The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Most High will overshadow you..." (Luke 1:35).
- Elizabeth, John the Baptist's mother (Luke 1:41).
- Zechariah, John the Baptist's father (Luke 1:67).
- John the Baptist himself (Luke 1:15), who is "filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth" (Luke 1:15).
- Simeon (Luke 2:25-27).
- Anna (Luke 2:36-38).
In Afghanistan and it was terrifying because up to that point ALL I ever heard people speak was Pentecostal repeating the same syllables over and over again like they had be taught and I caught them interpreting tongues from little notes they had in their bibles so they didn't forget and I thought it was complete BS until that point in my life.
Side note not directed at anyone: Scripture shows that tongues don't always manifest when the Spirit of the Lord is there, so the doctrine of man that says if you don't speak in tongues you haven't received the Holy Spirit is a false teaching. If you have to be taught how to do it, its counterfeit. If the two interpretations are different, its counterfeit. If there's any confusion, I believe its been covered on another thread, but prayer language and speaking in tongues are two different things.
I apologize if the way I explain this seems harsh or confrontational, when it comes to this subject I don't know how to be anything but blunt.
Kinda makes one wonder if the American church is preaching a false gospel, don’t it? And by the way Charismatic and Seeker Friendly churches are the majority not the minority in the United States.
Actually it is, see Hebrews 2:3-4. If God worked signs through them to bear witness to the things they testified that they saw, those signs would become rather irrelevant, don’t you think? Those signs are a huge part of the reason we give the weight that we do to Scripture. It’s special. If you gave your address to someone so they could find your house, but every house in your town had the same address, wouldn’t it just be a useless string of numbers. What good is a sign that points in all directions?
Yes, affirming that it was the real Gospel and infallibly so.
Bro, even Charismatics are shocked when one of their prophets gets even one thing right. How many false prophecies does a person have to give before they are a false prophet?
If the movement does have a real prophet, I’m convinced he’s tied up in a basement somewhere with duct tape over his mouth, because the folks strutting around on the stages fail the test, to a man.
Oh no worries, I can take harsh, it’s squishy that i have a hard time with
Acts 2:3 KJV
[3] And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
I’m sorry, but this doesn’t sound anything like a metaphor.
Ok, you’re going to have to lay this story out from start to finish. Where was it? Why were you there? Who else was there? What happened exactly? Pretend you’re Peter and you just got back to Jerusalem after preaching the Gospel to Cornelius’ household.
Ill PM you because I have to name people and the situation and I cant do that on the open forum.Ok, you’re going to have to lay this story out from start to finish. Where was it? Why were you there? Who else was there? What happened exactly? Pretend you’re Peter and you just got back to Jerusalem after preaching the Gospel to Cornelius’ household.
Cool, sounds good!
Agreed. And I agree that they should all be in there. My question is regarding the process that excluded other writings.
I actually did understand that. So why does Revelation close the canon?
You want a mind twister on the canon check this out. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_Old_Testament_canon#Bryennios_List
You know, really, if signs and wonders are an ongoing unabated thing, there really is no reason to say that the canon is closed. Is there anyone performing signs and wonders whose writings you would like to add?