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Our Need to Study and Learn from Others

Have you become familiar with the term and development of a theological tradition known as "Christoplatonism"?

I think then that is what you are struggling with with your "heavenly body" ideology.

Are you aware of that ide and set of beliefs that come from that idea? Sometimes it is also called syncretism stemming from Origen and Philo was the early church era and NT era. Familiar with those issues and ideas? If not I'll explain further but if so there is no need for me to hash out all of that if you have already become familiar with those issues and ideas.
 
let us not get side-tracked, as so easily happens :)
here is the point that i keep geting stuck
or does he still have that body today and can teach and make primary apostles face to face at the present time?
 
Steve, it is the issue at hand. It deals with how one defines biblical terms and views them from their own perspective of thought. If you don't know what it is just say "I don't know." There are tons of things we all are still learning. If you do understand it then let me know so we can move on to the delineation of the proper perspective on Christ's ascension body. It's almost as if you are fearful of saying you do not know or understand something, which is exactly the point of this original thread. We all need to be sitting at the feet of older men in the Lord so we can learn.

There is nothing wrong with saying I do not know and then taking the time to examine the new ideas one is not familiar with. Your issue of over the proper way to see Christ and his body is directly related to which way one leans in regard to this. This is the art of learning and growing. We all need to be learning from those who have gone further and deeper in the Word, which is the point of discipleship. I'm hoping I can be a disciple of someone or several people until the day I die. Even among us here, men like John Whitten, Doc, Bill Luck, Nathan provide me with invaluable discipleship, and then even beyond men who have trained me in the educational classrooms as well as in other areas of life too have much to offer when we are willing to learn and walk through new concepts.

You have asked some questions and I'll be glad to share with you some theological answers but the questions you have raised and the resolutions are often determined by the prior set of presuppositions or ideas that one goes into the discussion with. If a person embraces the ideas as set forth by Philo and Origen, or others or even something else, or if one embraces something known as a duality or holistic view of man's body, those prior ideas often if not always in this subject set the person as to where they will be in regard to this subject. Much of the confusion in that can be resolved by examining those preliminary issues. Your view as it stands has some presuppositions to it that need to be brought out on the table so the presuppositions that exist can be seen. Even contentions between the Lutherans and the Presbyterians over the Lord's Supper, the consubstantiation view versus the memorial or spiritual view is rooted in this very issue here.

Since you affirm, if I recall correctly a future earthly millennial reign, then you are already in that doctrine on the opposite side of Christoplatonism. But it is possible that your views of Christ's body have been influenced by the Christoplatonic thought which would in turn, because all theological doctrines are interconnected, cause confusion for you on how to view apostleship because of a position that builds itself upon the connection to Christ. To get to "C" we have to back up to walk through "A" and "B."
 
steve said:
let us not get side-tracked, as so easily happens :)
here is the point that i keep geting stuck
or does he still have that body today and can teach and make primary apostles face to face at the present time?
it is a "yes" or "no" question.
if you cannot answer it, please say so
 
SIGH.....

Are you saying Christ is not then in an actual, literal, physical body today?

Is that how you see it?

Are you asking me does Christ have a body today? That answer to that is simple and straightforward (but still peripheral to the issues and presuppositions that I think are at play in the other areas).

All believers in the Lord recognize he has a body that is physical as it arose from the grave. It was his actual body that came out of the grave. Jesus is not some mystical spirit floating around that lacks physical qualities that it had before. If a person does not believe Christ is in a real, physical, resurrected body that person is a pagan and is unsaved. There is no hope, as Paul said, if Christ is not arisen in a physical literal body (the entire chapter of 1 Cor. 15 deals with this).

Surely you do not think differently in that do you? If so then we have more issues than with what defines an apostle. I know you have never wanted to answer the question about whether or not the Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ living in a person, so maybe that position too is connected somehow to this view you have of Christ and his ascended estate. So please do clarify. Do you accept the Judeo-Christian position that the Lord arose in his physical body from the grave?
 
the focus of the question, rephrased, is;

can Yeshua today teach and make another (by your definition) primary apostle?
 
And you say I will not answer questions :roll

Would you like to answer the ones I have asked?

You have made the remark that something changed in Christ's body in his ascension and thus that what Paul saw was not the same and thus maybe due to that for some reason he in heavenly body makes things different.

Did not Paul see the same Lord Jesus that each of the other apostles saw after he arose from the grave? Is not Christ who arose also the same Christ who commissioned the eleven and then Paul later on (see John 20:19-29, 21:1-23; Acts 9)?
 
And you say I will not answer questions :roll
go ahead and roll your eyes. i asked a question 2 months ago that, i guess, you missed. in my last 5 posts i have asked a parallel question that you might, finally, be getting to. you have wasted your time on questions that i never asked.
Would you like to answer the ones I have asked?
why? this conversation has been my attempts to get an answer from you on a specific point.

i guess that the closest that i am going to get to pulling an answer out of you is to make an assumption from these two statements of your's:
Did not Paul see the same Lord Jesus that each of the other apostles saw after he arose from the grave? Is not Christ who arose also the same Christ who commissioned the eleven and then Paul later on (see John 20:19-29, 21:1-23; Acts 9)?
and an earlier one,
Jesus Christ did speak live to Paul. That is my point. As the resurrected Lord he spoke to him on Damascus road and Jesus is in a literal, physical body and thus there was a live conversation between he and Paul, likely to have been around 3 years of it as well where he learned directly from Christ just like the first apostles were with him for around three years.
and assume that that same Lord Jesus that they saw exists today and can make and instruct primary (your term) apostles in our time.
 
SIGH.....your assumption would contain in it the issues and presuppositions I wanted go back step by step through to discuss as it has other issues that play into the matter but, as I can see, you have no desire to look at in such a step by step format. Your ideas are nothing new as standard Christian texts by many in the teaching and academic field address those ideas you have which are wrapped into that assumption.

And, no, not per se, that is not my assumption or position. The issues revolve around (1) canonicity, (2) what God can do versus what he will do and what he has done, and even other factors such as (3) functional roles of the original apostles versus Spirit gifting and purposes of those after them.

Christoplatonism becomes another issue as one deals with the mysticism factor that led to the ideas that assume one can be on the same level today as one of the original apostles. We can see those ideas surfacing from the writings of Philo and Origen as well as others throughout church history because of their philosophical ideas that they embraced in regard to the nature of language and inspiration.

There is a distinct position the original 12 have plus Paul due to their functional roles, which differs from other roles given to those after them. But again this issue can be traced step by step better when starting from point A going to B and then arriving at C for this day and age. Dr. Wayne Grudem covered this very well in his Systematic Text too and it has helped clear the air for many people. He, as a continuationist theologian in regard to SPiritual giftings, shows why it is not logical or the best position to see modern apostles as the same as the original ones who had a distinct and unique function for the entire body of Christ for all time in all places for all saints. These functional roles play into the equation.

But, that might too be a tough subject of study for you as it requires one to understand who the Holy Spirit is. If your position is still one of where you do not recognize, or understand, or grasp him to be Christ living in someone, truly God of God, then that too would be an issue in this study because that issue plays into roles and functions and by far that issue is much more of a major issue in regard to one's faith in Christ. That plays heavily into the whole matter because the functional roles are issues of Pneumatology and not just Christological. Commissioning for service comes through Christ but empowerment and specific functions come from Christ who lives in one as the Holy Spirit and thus it is these issues that one must step back to examine and work with when seeking to understand how a difference can exist and why it would even exist between the original apostles who were commissioned and equipped for inscripturation whereas later ones would be designed and gifted differently.

But like I said, if you're interested and willing to go through the subject from A to B to C then we can. I'm always eager to walk someone through that if they have the desire to learn. Certainly the seminary students I have walked with through this subject in the Canon and Inspiration class love it and they sure up a lot loose ends as they go. Your call though.
 
Job 42:2 "I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.

God can do all things, but since we have not had any apostles for 2000 years it seems unlikely that they would suddenly start popping up now. The fact that Jesus, after His resurrection, made an apostle out of Paul seems to support the idea that He can make apostles at any time. But since we have His Word perhaps that is enough and we are not in need of any new apostles since we fail to apply what we have already been given.
 
thankyou, it is all clear now :)
 
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