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Question about "Answers In Genesis", Nathaniel Jeanson, Mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosome based genetic research

For instance, in humanity today we see darker skinned people along the equator and lighter skinned people in the more Arctic regions. Lighter skinned people do better at creating their own vitamin D when there's less sunlight and darker skinned people are less prone to sunburn and skin cancer in the brightest sunlight.

As humans migrated to these areas the individuals who were not already adapted to prosper in these areas did not prosper. But their lighter/darker skinned compatriots did. Eventually the populations in those areas were all light or dark.

As mutations occur in genetic code most of the mutations filter out of a population because they're not well suited to the environment at hand. But some mutations will be better suited and the progeny of those individuals who have those mutations will outcompete their peers who do not have what is now a genetic advantage.
This is all true - but describes the process of natural selection, which is only one part of what is called "evolution". The standard "proof" of evolution is exactly what you have done here (which you are repeating as you've heard it yourself, I'm not accusing you of bad logic, just repeating what you think is good logic):
1) Explain natural selection.
2) Show natural selection is real, by obvious examples.
3) Mention mutations, and show they can be selected for sometimes.
4) Assert that this means the whole evolutionary theory is real - without proving this vital and final point (or even realising it hasn't been proven).

Points 1-3 follow logically and are completely provable. Point 4 takes a massive leap, but it is not immediately obvious, so the argument is generally accepted as valid.

The leap is that evolution does not just require mutations that are beneficial, but mutations that add new information.

There are certainly mutations that are beneficial. E.g. albinoism (the lack of skin and hair pigmentation) - can be very beneficial for an animal that lives in the arctic. Or, for a fish that lives in the dark, a mutation that means the fish has no eyes will be beneficial - they weren't helpful in that environment, only something that could be injured, fish without eyes will be selected for. These are beneficial mutations - but do not add information, so they have no value in onward-and-upward progress of evolution.

You cannot transform a fish into an amphibian by losing information, only by gaining it.

Even mutations that at first appear to add features, can actually have lost information. For instance, penicillin resistance comes from a mutation that damages the gene that controls the production of penicillinase enzyme, so instead of producing small amounts of this enzyme (note importantly that the organism could already produce this enzyme, the mutation did not give them this ability), the organism produces far more than it would normally need. In most situations this would be a harmful, wasteful mutation, but when exposed to unnaturally large quantities of penicillin (in medicine) those organisms survive. So under repeated exposure to penicillin, resistance builds (as resistant organisms dominate the population) - but when no longer exposed, resistance falls away, because the more fit non-resistant normal organisms survive better, as they're not wasting energy producing all that penicillinase.

Every single example of a beneficial mutation ever given as an evolutionary proof, when closely examined, always turns out to involve the loss of information.

As @MemeFan pointed out, organisms can in some circumstances get information from other organisms - but again this is pre-existing information. It is not the invention of new structures. So it can help one bacterium change to be more like another - but does not progress evolution towards more complex forms.

And it is that new information which mutations can never provide. Information theory shows us this. Random changes cannot, and do not, create new information, new features, that did not exist before.

That vital point is ignored in all scientific "proofs" of evolution, because the moment it is taken account of, the whole argument falls over. Instead, atheistic evolutionists have blind faith that although it has never been observed, and contradicts information science, sometimes there are mutations that add information. Their whole theory rides on the faith that over and over again throughout history (not just once, but at every single tiny progressive step), a process has taken place that nobody has ever observed.

Theistic evolutionsts at least have the cop-out that they can claim "God did that bit". Atheists have to ignore it and pretend this major flaw in their argument doesn't even exist.
 
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Incidentally I believe this is one reason why there is a rise in pantheism, in many different forms, in the world today. In viewing the earth as Gaia, or praying to "the universe", and any sort of vague "spirituality". It is because at some level (likely subconsciously in many cases) more and more people are realising that evolution could not occur without being directed or assisted in some way by some sort of force that is outside what is known by science. This causes them to assume there must be some sort of directing force in nature, and then seek it out.

So many supposedly secular evolutionists are actually theistic evolutionists - even those in academia. They believe it is directed by some supernatural force, just usually not the God of the Bible.
 
Every single example of a beneficial mutation ever given as an evolutionary proof, when closely examined, always turns out to involve the loss of information.

So what? Losing information that is no longer necessary for survival is not a loss at all.
 
Their whole theory rides on the faith that over and over again throughout history (not just once, but at every single tiny progressive step), a process has taken place that nobody has ever observed.

You do have kids right? Haven't you ever had something happen with them that you did not see yet you were able to figure out what happened anyway?

No human alive saw the oldest Bristlecone pine trees sprout from seedlings yet it's still a logical conclusion that they did indeed sprout from seedlings.
 
You cannot transform a fish into an amphibian by losing information, only by gaining it.
Individuals do not evolve. Populations do.
That is not an objection, it is a separate statement. The population must still gain information to evolve (and that information is stored in the individuals).
So what? Losing information that is no longer necessary for survival is not a loss at all.
Of course, loss of unnecessary information must occur also. But you cannot get past the fact that you cannot make a simple organism more complex solely by losing information. At some point you must also add information (the fish with gills must gain the information to make lungs, before it can lose the information to make gills). It is that addition of information that atheistic evolution cannot explain.
 
On the catfish - the fact that incredible fish that can move across the land exist (and there are many, eels do the same), does not in any way tell us that they evolved to get to that stage. They're cool fish. Were they made by God like that, or did they evolve to get there? To answer that question we have to go back to actually engaging with the points I am making - which those fish do not in any way answer, and are just a fun distraction from.
 
It is that addition of information that atheistic evolution cannot explain.

Atheistic evolution is a religious matter. Atheists are rarely ever content to be indifferent to the existence of God, no they tend to be what I call evangelical atheists who can't rest until everyone believes in their religion.

To them evolution is just a stick to use as a weapon. They tend not to know any more about it than most other people.

The thing you're missing here is that the making of chromosomes is the tool that generates what you call 'new information'.

Here, read this article that gets into the chemistry of DNA:


And then read this one on chromosomes which will make more sense after reading the article above.

 
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Said no one ever.
@MeganC, sarcastic responses like this tell me that you are completely failing to understand anything @MemeFan or myself are saying about information. I am not going to keep responding to posts that just completely miss the point, as that will make the discussion less valuable for other readers. I'd prefer to stay on topic.

We are talking about information science. You are now talking about DNA - the place that information is stored. These are almost entirely different topics. I feel like I'm having a discussion about literature, and then somebody chimes in talking about typewriters, feeling they're making a contribution to the discussion. Or talking about computer coding languages, and having someone start talking about how microprocessors work.

Information science is the field of science that studies information, completely independent of what it is stored on (be that DNA, printed text or computer storage).

If anyone actually wants to look into this, I would highly recommend the book "In the beginning was information" by Dr Werner Gitt as an introduction.
 
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You don't understand the mechanism of DNA. It isn't just a storehouse for information it is also a producer of new information and sometimes a destroyer of it too. It is not a static and unchanging entity. It is not designed to be static and unchanging.

We are talking about information science. You are now talking about DNA - the place that information is stored. These are almost entirely different topics.

Then don't go off topic when the topic is literally about DNA.

Lately you seem to be making a habit out of trying to derail topics so you can come back and claim some sort of point. Like asking a bunch of leading questions about Scott Ritter, insisting I answer them, and then claiming that I'm the one taking the topic in a new direction. This is something I will call you on every single time. It's a form of gaslighting.

This habit of yours irritates me because I'm now accustomed to looking at your posts with a bit of apprehension even when you're writing something that is very constructive.
 
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You don't understand the mechanism of DNA. It isn't just a storehouse for information it is also a producer of new information and sometimes a destroyer of it too. It is not a static and unchanging entity. It is not designed to be static and unchanging.
I understand the mechanism of DNA well, I studied it at university. And it is for that reason that I can see past the standard explanation and on to the problems with it. DNA recombination can certainly reshuffle the letters, and sometimes import new sequences from outside the organism - but does not produce new information.

I can reshuffle this sentence, but it doesn't create new information.
I sentence, can this but it doesn't reshuffle new create information.

But maybe if I reshuffled it enough it would become not only meaningful again, but mean something wholly new and useful?

This is "magical thinking", the idea that simply reshuffling and mutating things will somehow magically create coherent, meaningful codes that do new, useful functions. It sounds plausible - but there are actual laws of science and mathematics that it violates. It is statistically impossible. In reality, meaningful sentences only occur when they have been created by an intelligent author (or, of course, a semi-intelligent computer programmed by an intelligent programmer).

Like everything in science, the statement I just made can be disproven by just one example. So, please disprove my statement, and give just one example of a wholly new and beneficial feature being created through simple reshuffling of DNA. Don't just ridicule it. Disprove it with an example.
 
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@MeganC, to be clearer, looking at it from an information-science perspective:
- What is my password to this forum?
- How many times do you think you would need to type in random characters before you worked it out?

The exact same mathematical problem applies to DNA. The physical mechanism to change the code certainly exists (recombination and mutation), just as the physical mechanism to type any character into the password box of a computer certainly exists. But just saying "keyboards exist and can make different characters" does not in any way help with the actual, fundamental, information question. Most potential combinations of characters are meaningless garbage - neither real words, nor the password you're trying to guess. In the same way, just saying "DNA recombination is a thing" does not in any way answer the question of how new, meaningful combinations that code for new structures come about. Almost all potential DNA combinations are garbage. The question of "how to get a meaningful combination of characters, that contains information" is where information science comes in.
 
Picture of Mona Lisa is information. Separate case is it's physical representation (seeing it alive, on TV or mobile phone). Information is by nature immaterial, but to be perceived must have it's physical form.

@FollowingHim, Cells are capable of invention of new information by changing and mixing existing DNA. Changing meaning of sentence by changing letters of sentence is creating new information.

Do you know that T-cell are able to change it's own DNA? That how each T-cell become specialized for different antigen.

Perry Marshall in his book Evolution 2.0 mentions how scientists have created new speices. They have inserted bacteria inside amoeba. In most cases combination has died. But in very small amount, like less 1%, they have learned to cooperate forming new specie. Same thing is considered to happened with first eukaryotic cell.

See, forming new species doesn't require Lord's personal intervention.

Only one thing which can be considered to have to be created by Lord is life itself, first cell. Communication system must have sender, receiver and code. Code is meaning, message itself together with rules how to understand message. English sentence is garbage without understand English grammar and semantics.

Only intelligent being can created code. Perry has offered reward in millions for finder of naturally occuring code. So far, nobody has taken. Therefore, code creation requires living being. We humans create code: languagues and arts are good example.

Since cells are inteligent beings they can create code. Bacteria have both interspecies and intraspecies language. Do you know that bacteria inside you do census of their number before deciding to mount invasion? Collecting information, making decision, responding to enviroment are all marks of intelligence and marks of living being. All communication requires code because meaning must be understood.

Key question in biology is not how new species are formed. Cells can do that already by changing its own genetic code. We may not understood all details, but it is know capability of cell. Problem is who has created first cell since only life can create life and code?
 
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Changing meaning of sentence by changing letters of sentence is creating new information.
Only if the sentence has a new meaning. If it doesn't make sense, it does not contain information. Random sequences are not information.
Do you know that T-cell are able to change it's own DNA? That how each T-cell become specialized for different antigen.
They are programmed to do this, they are carefully coded to learn certain things and save that information in code. That's not evolution, it's their function.
Perry Marshall in his book Evolution 2.0 mentions how scientists have created new speices. They have inserted bacteria inside amoeba. In most cases combination has died. But in very small amount, like less 1%, they have learned to cooperate forming new specie. Same thing is considered to happened with first eukaryotic cell.
Still just using pre-existing information (amoeba and bacteria). No new code. Interesting experiment but not relevant to this question.
Only intelligent being can created code. Perry has offered reward in millions for finder of naturally occuring code. So far, nobody has taken. Therefore, code creation requires living being. We humans create code: languagues and arts are good example.
Exactly. The end result of all of this is that life can only come from life - and ultimately life can only come from God.
 
He's technically right about that @steve - because the word "species" is a scientific term that has no direct relationship with the Biblical "kinds" of animals God created. It's a different classification. Technically species are distinct groups that cannot breed with each other. So technically if you breed dogs to the point that one breed is physically so big and another physically so small that they simply cannot mate - they are now by definition able to be classed as two separate species. On a microbial level you can obviously do even more manipulation (whether or not you should of course).

Scientists creating new species doesn't mean anything theologically. The word "species" is just a way of categorising things to try and describe life. It's just a word.
 
He's technically right about that @steve - because the word "species" is a scientific term that has no direct relationship with the Biblical "kinds" of animals God created. It's a different classification. Technically species are distinct groups that cannot breed with each other. So technically if you breed dogs to the point that one breed is physically so big and another physically so small that they simply cannot mate - they are now by definition able to be classed as two separate species. On a microbial level you can obviously do even more manipulation (whether or not you should of course).

Scientists creating new species doesn't mean anything theologically. The word "species" is just a way of categorising things to try and describe life. It's just a word.
Sorry that my comment was so non-specific.
The idea that creating a new species of amoeba is a bit underwhelming.
 
I understand the mechanism of DNA well, I studied it at university. And it is for that reason that I can see past the standard explanation and on to the problems with it. DNA recombination can certainly reshuffle the letters, and sometimes import new sequences from outside the organism - but does not produce new information.

I can reshuffle this sentence, but it doesn't create new information.
I sentence, can this but it doesn't reshuffle new create information.

This is a flawed example and the more accurate comparison to DNA is not to reshuffle the words (analogous to genome sequences) but to reshuffle the letters thereby creating new genome sequences.

Example is to start with your original expression: I can reshuffle this sentence, but it doesn't create new information.

Reshuffling the words gets us a new expression with some leftover words that don't do anything anymore - which is very similar to DNA where some parts are simply not in use for the time being.

Example: I can create new information but not reshuffle this sentence it does

I can go Full Yoda (or perhaps Shakespeare) with the sentence, too: Create new information I can, but it reshuffle this sentence not

But to get really serious I would recombine the letters to make whole new words and sentences. In DNA it's just four nucleotide bases (A, T, C, and G) that combine and recombine to create new expressions.

In your sentence there are a myriad of things that can be done with the sixty-seven letters and two punctuations. Some of those options will leave letters or punctuation marks unused. In any case the results will indeed be new information.
 
In your sentence there are a myriad of things that can be done with the sixty-seven letters and two punctuations. Some of those options will leave letters or punctuation marks unused. In any case the results will indeed be new information.
And 99.999999999% of the time the result will be utterly useless garbage. I know that you can theorise that if you did it enough then eventually one day you might get a useful result (the old millions-of-monkeys-with-typewriters analogy). But you have to ignore statistics to believe that is practical. In reality, it just doesn't happen.

As I have already said, prove me wrong with an example.
 
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