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The Husband’s Call to Love Is A Call to Rule

I'd also like to know why you're backpedaling now, from "a call to love is a call to rule" to "a call to love includes ruling". The original claim was in fact that they are the same thing, so let's not lose sight of that.

Point taken. My apologies on this. My intent was not to claim that a husbands love was only rule but that it includes rule. And I can see why it came across that way. Not intending to back peddle. Just poor explanation up front on my part.

Tell me, Pacman, do you beat your wife with a rod when she's out of line?

No

I'd be interested in your thoughts on the music production analogy and why you appear to need to make this "call to love" into something else.

I guess I largely agree with the analogy but I don't think making the claim about ruling is a "push to make the guitars sound more like the keyboards"
 
You guys go on playing your word games, but for everybody else that comes along later, "love" means "love", not "rule". You'd be better off doing a word study on agape or meditating for 30 days in a row on what Eph 5 actually says than trying to make it say something else.

According to rockfox's "money quote", the call to "love" is now actually a call to "chasten". Mmm hmm.


I'll deal with this in a separate thread. Nothing "clear" about it.


So you agree that wives are not children, and you were just asking a rhetorical question. Glad to know that.

Whatever other bible authors have to say about "rule" (let alone chastening) in the household, it's not mentioned in Paul's call to husbands to "love their wives". We could easily let separate passages stand on their own without trying to rewrite the ones we have problems with. What's the big deal trying to make Paul say something he didn't say? Why is that so important?

As a musician and producer, I would say that to really hear what the bible authors had to say about any subject, you have to have all the different parts mixed right. The theme of loving one's wife, taking care of her, treating her as a weaker vessel, nourishing and cherishing her, etc, is picked up by different instruments at different levels, while whatever is said in the bible about a husband's need to rule his household, or train his children, or whatever (nothing explicit about "ruling" one's wife, only analogies...), is carried by other instruments at other levels.

If you believe that God has "produced" the bible, arranging the parts the way he sees fit, saying things the way they are actually said, repeated or elaborated on as necessary, or said once if that was all that needed to be said, then why the big push to make the guitars sound more like the keyboards, or have the trombones blaring over the flutes, or rewriting the melody in the violins because you want it to match the cello part? Why is that necessary?
@andrew--as a musician and having been the conductor as well, I can say this is very well stated and great analogy!!
 
My children know I love them when they see how I sacrificially serve them. When I set boundaries for their safety they do not like. When I am totally absent and uninvolved because I'm doing what must be done to put food on the table. When I stay up at night changing diapers or tending a sick child. Love is not limited to romantic platitudes or ooey gooey affection.

To say love=love and never = rule is simplistic, binary thinking.
 
Amos 3:3 Do two walk together unless they have agreed to do so?

The idea of rule or discipline in a loving relationship is based on choices, at least in my mind. The relationship we each have with God is based on the choices we make to follow Him. The hardships or punishments we receive are based more on our wrong choices more than an actual disciplinary measure from God.

So to is the concept of 'rule' in family relationship, it's based on choice. As God is our head and we make choices to follow Him. Husbands, wives, children, all have to make choices to honor the integrity of the family and the headship structure God created for them.

So I think love = choice = rule, scaled accordingly.
 
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Point taken. My apologies on this. My intent was not to claim that a husbands love was only rule but that it includes rule. And I can see why it came across that way. Not intending to back peddle. Just poor explanation up front on my part.
Roger that. Maybe we'll converge on this yet.... ;)

Glad to hear it!

I guess I largely agree with the analogy but I don't think making the claim about ruling is a "push to make the guitars sound more like the keyboards"
I don't know how much music production you've done, but if you follow my progression there, I was actually mentally evolving my analogy as I wrote, and maybe could've gone back and deleted the guitars and the trombones, but I thought it all worked together so I left it. The most appropriate comparison, though, was where I finally got to: rewriting the violin part to track the cellos.

What Paul said to the men of Ephesus in Eph 5 is completely different, and is from a different context, and is said to a different audience, and for a different reason, than (to pick one) what John says he heard Jesus say to the Laodiceans in Rev 3. If Jesus's utterance in Rev 3 has anything at all to do with how we treat our wives in the here and now, it is at least different in tone, application, and purpose from what Paul says in Eph 5. Hence, my analogy works pretty well if you understand music composition and production. Let Paul say what he said the way he said it. Let John say what he said the way he said it (and the way he says he heard it). Don't mash them up, and don't pretend they said the same thing, or that they're interchangeable, let alone equivalent (which is where we started, and I know you've already walked that back a bit, but I'm still thinking about the author of that article you linked to). Let each voice have its place in the "mix" (back to music production) that God has established for this particular work.

What's important is that we hear the whole song the way He mixed it, and we don't try to do our own remix.
 
Just a quick word re spanking (as opposed to beating...):

What consenting adults wind up with for SOPs in their home is none of my business, but when "chastening" (that is, beating) gets brought up with a straight face in a discussion of what it means to love our wives, it's time for a reality check. If any male or female older than a fairly young child requires a beating to command their cooperation or respect, then something has gone horribly wrong. 'Nuff said for my purposes here; if someone wants to argue with that let's start another thread.
 
@andrew--as a musician and having been the conductor as well, I can say this is very well stated and great analogy!!
I'm glad you appreciated that! :)

Over the years we have used musical analogies and metaphors time and again for teamwork, unity, and cooperation comparisons (as opposed to say sports or military comparisons). Just the way my brain works....
 
Genesis 3:16 ?
Could you be a little more cryptic, please?... ;)

Hey, all I can say is that if you think your job is to be the curse of God in your wife's life, then go for it. Anything else you were trying to say about this verse?
 
In fact, Chris, you've actually done me a favor and made my whole case for me. Thanks, bro! :cool:

Gen 3:16 teaches us pretty squarely that the rulership of the husband over the wife is an artifact of the curse of God on Eve for her disobedience—"from the beginning it was not so". We may need a new thread.... :p
 
To say love=love and never = rule is simplistic, binary thinking.
Whatever, rockfox. To say love=rule is simplistic, Orwellian thinking.

It's not even "binary" thinking; it's hard to tell what you mean by that, other than just to be insulting. I'm just saying that words mean specific things, and we shouldn't act like they're interchangeable. Even Pacman has backed off the equivalence thing. Do you want to try to restate whatever your point was?
 
Amos 3:3 Do two walk together unless they have agreed to do so?

The idea of rule or discipline in a loving relationship is based on choices, at least in my mind. The relationship we each have with God is based on the choices we make to follow Him. The hardships or punishments we receive are based more on our wrong choices more than an actual disciplinary measure from God.

So to is the concept of 'rule' in family relationship, it's based on choice. As God is our head and we make choices to follow Him. Husbands, wives, children, all have to make choices to honor the integrity of the family and the headship structure God created for them.

So I think love = choice = rule, scaled accordingly.
So in other words, wives submit to your husbands?... ;)
 
Hey, all I can say is that if you think your job is to be the curse of God in your wife's life, then go for it.

In fact, Chris, you've actually done me a favor and made my whole case for me. Thanks, bro! :cool:

Gen 3:16 teaches us pretty squarely that the rulership of the husband over the wife is an artifact of the curse of God on Eve for her disobedience—"from the beginning it was not so". We may need a new thread.... :p

I think the fact that Adam's sin is what plunged the human race into a sin nature (1 Corinthians 15:22) is clear evidence that patriarchy existed before the curse. Remember that Eve sinned first not Adam. If Adam had not been the one "in charge" then Eve's sin would have brought the curse not Adam's. So while Genesis 3:16 clearly indicates something changed with regard to a husbands ruling (my hypothesis is this change is because of the fact that he now has to deal with her sin nature) I don't believe that is where it started...
Nor do I believe that ruling her is "being the curse of God in her life." (yes a new thread might be good)
 
Whatever, rockfox. To say love=rule is simplistic, Orwellian thinking.

It's not even "binary" thinking; it's hard to tell what you mean by that, other than just to be insulting. I'm just saying that words mean specific things, and we shouldn't act like they're interchangeable.

You are grossly oversimplifying the author's main point as well as missing several side ones. For example, in the linked authors discussion of love he says

So here are key attributes of how Christ loves his Church that are given to husbands as a model in how God requires them to love their wives in Ephesians chapter 5:
  1. The call to love one’s wife is a call to sacrifice one’s self for one’s wife.
  2. The call to love one’s wife is a call to wash one’s wife, to wash her spiritual spots and wrinkles with the Word of God.
  3. The call to love one’s wife is a call to provide for(nourish) her physical needs.
  4. The call to love one’s wife is a call to protect(cherish) her.

That is far from saying love=rule as if that is all it means and he's just playing word games. Whether his ultimate conclusions are right or wrong, there is a lot more depth to the article than you give him credit for.

Now, apart from anything the author argues from theology. I can say as one who has led in many situations, the act of ruling very often requires loving self sacrifice. Agape love. Now there are different styles of leadership so this may be colored by my style and experience; but to me it is so common and important as to be an inherent, inseparable part of it.
 
I think the fact that Adam's sin is what plunged the human race into a sin nature (1 Corinthians 15:22) is clear evidence that patriarchy existed before the curse. Remember that Eve sinned first not Adam. If Adam had not been the one "in charge" then Eve's sin would have brought the curse not Adam's.
All of that hinges on what you mean by "patriarchy", a word that means different things to different people. There are certainly inferences that can be drawn from Paul's exposition that "by one man sin entered the world" or that "in Adam all die", but what's "clear" from that can be fussed about. Anyway, it's not the main point here.

So while Genesis 3:16 clearly indicates something changed with regard to a husbands ruling (my hypothesis is this change is because of the fact that he now has to deal with her sin nature) I don't believe that is where it started...
Nor do I believe that ruling her is "being the curse of God in her life." (yes a new thread might be good)
Let's talk about the "something" that changed, since that's the whole point. I would say 'separate thread', but the same sort of finagling is going on here that is going on with Eph 5, so I figure it's relevant.

God tells Eve three things: (1) He'll greatly multiply her sorrow and her childbirth, making childbirth a sorrow to her (seems obvious enough what that means), (2) her desire shall be to her husband (whatever that means), and (3) her husband shall rule over her (whatever that means). It seems pretty clear (without the baggage of 'needing' this verse to say anything in particular) that there is a difference between (1) on the one hand and (2) and (3) on the other.

In the first matter, God says He is going to "greatly increase" something, so it seems plain that Eve was already able to have children and had some reason to know or anticipate what childbirth was like. It's required for God's language in His judgment to make sense. If Eve were unequipped to have children before the fall, the language would have been completely different.

In the same way, both the second and third matter are simple changes of state, not an increase or decrease in the quality or quantity of something. This is going to happen, and that's going to happen. Implying that they weren't already happening, or else implying that God speaks in meaningless tautologies just because He can. "Your desire will be to your husband, and he will rule over you." These are new things that haven't been happening yet.
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If the "something" you're avoiding referring to is some sort of change in the manner or severity of his "rule", one would expect God to have said "and he will rule over you with a rod of iron" or some such appropriate figure of speech, but that's not what He says. The "something" that changed is that now he's going to rule over you. Shouldn't have eaten that apple. Shouldn't have listened to that snake. Shouldn't have been talking with snakes in the first place.

So as a result of disobeying God and Adam, Eve is going to be under the rule of her husband. That's what the text says, and coincidentally that's what it means.

None of this has anything to do with Eph 5, except that the same mistake is being made in both cases. Don't make the text say something it doesn't say, just accept what it does say and work with that.

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Note that even this passage is not a command to husbands to rule over their wives, any more than "wives, submit to your husbands" is. Pacman, you suggest that rule is required because of the woman's (new) sin nature, but it could just as easily be something defective about the post-fall man. Maybe fallen man is going to spend the rest of time running the woman into the ground to make up for that one time he let her call the shots. Who knows? All we know from the text is that as a simple statement of fact, God tells the woman that from now on she's going to frustrated in her relationship with her husband, and will no longer enjoy the intimate oneness she enjoyed pre-fall. The big question is whether Christ's blood and the indwelling Holy Spirit change any of that, at least if we're doing it right.

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Note further that God doesn't command the man to keep the woman in check, or even suggest that that is his primary duty; God focuses on the bitter futility of the work the man will do from now on. Notice the 'chain of command' thing going on there, the symmetry? God gave man work to do (tending a garden, animal husbandry, etc), and henceforth that work is going to be a drag. God gave woman work to do (assisting the man in his work and bearing his children), and henceforth that work is going to be a drag. The big question is still whether Christ's blood and the indwelling Holy Spirit change any of that, at least if we're doing it right.
 
@rockfox, sorry bro, but I'll catch up with you tomorrow. I've got someone waiting for me, and I do NOT want her to fall asleep.... ;)
 
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