Torah vs Grace?

[Cap]

And when Grace first was given. It starts with Adam and Eve With a promise. Reaffirmed with Abraham, Issac, Jacob and in The Torah, David and Prophets with Him showing it but not fully extending it. In His time it fully manifested with the Promise He gave to Adam and Eve in the Messiah Yeshua. Grace lifts us up to His Holiness not lowers His Holiness to Us. A restoration of all that was lost. His image and Likeness and His Fellowship.

8Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” d 9So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

According to Paul this was done before the Law was given. And he further states that the Law was there for a purpose until the Son of God came. Once that happened, we are back to the original order of things under the Melchizedek priesthood, not the priesthood that ministers the Law.

 

[Nikud]

Thanks for the explanation. I agree that what is to come is revealed. This is what has always given His people hope. Ezekiel was called in exile if I remember right, and what a comfort he must have been.

I really don't see this as a wandering time. It looks like we are too close to the end. We really see more fulfilled at this point.

Prophecy says we will be called back from wandering when the Messiah comes. I'm about to leave fore the night Ill post that prophecy in a day or two if you want.

 

[Nikud]

8Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” d 9So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

According to Paul this was done before the Law was given. And he further states that the Law was there for a purpose until the Son of God came. Once that happened, we are back to the original order of things under the Melchizedek priesthood, not the priesthood that ministers the Law.

Romans 3:31
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

 

[Cap]

Romans 3:31
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

What does upholding the Law mean? Can you define that and be right?

I define it as having faith in God. Upholding the Law is upholding God first and He upholds the Law for us because we can't do it.

 

[Cap]

Romans 3:31
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

All of Romans 3 sets the context for verse 31. You have to read the whole chapter to get the point of verse 31.

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

He is saying by faith all will be upholding the Law through thier relationship with God.

 

[Cap]

The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Interesting, I never saw that before, there is a law that requires faith, and one is justified in it.

 

[Nikud]

What does upholding the Law mean? Can you define that and be right?

I define it as having faith in God. Upholding the Law is upholding God first and He upholds the Law for us because we can't do it.

The word ἵστημι translated as uphold means stand firm and taken from the kopic greek to the Koine and into the Hebrew means obey.

Also remember that man divided it in chapters the whole context is the whole epistle and with that interpretation you puts Paul in contradiction with James, Peter, the Prophets, Yeshua and God as the Father so there has to be another interpretation.

The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Interesting, I never saw that before, there is a law that requires faith, and one is justified in it.

I posted that on another thread when I was trying to point out that were not suppose to obey out of fear of the consequences but obey God out of love. I have a about 5 pages ive written about it. I can email it to you so you can read it. Im actually heading out the Door I Have to be at the Church in about 30 minutes I holding a lock in for the youth at our Church.

 

[Cap]

The word ἵστημι translated as uphold means stand firm and taken from the kopic greek to the Koine and into the Hebrew means obey.

Also remember that man divided it in chapters the whole context is the whole epistle and with that interpretation you puts Paul in contradiction with James, Peter, the Prophets, Yeshua and God as the Father so there has to be another interpretation.


I posted that on another thread when I was trying to point out that were not suppose to obey out of fear of the consequences but obey God out of love. I have a about 5 pages ive written about it. I can email it to you so you can read it. Im actually heading out the Door I Have to be at the Church in about 30 minutes I holding a lock in for the youth at our Church.

I understand the chapter/verse separation and were it came from, but it is helpful in trying to isolate understandings.

I don't find there to be contradictions, to me it all leads to a better understanding.

I would be happy to read what you wrote to see more of this law of faith, when you get time.

God bless your evening with the children, especially on a night like this.

 

[rockfox]

Jeremiah 31:31-34 NASB
[31] "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, [32] not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. [33] "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. [34] They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

This hasn’t happened yet.

Yes it has happened (Rom 11, 1 Cor 11, Heb 9). The new covenant is here now.

Actually the greek can be read as renewed when Luke writes for Paul but then that wouldn't fit the Grecco Roman church stance.

Not renewed, replaced...

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
13In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

[Slumberfreeze]

It looks like we are too close to the end. We really see more fulfilled at this point.

I sure hope so. My execution is DECADES overdue.

 

[steve]

Theories are fine, but the proof is in the pudding.
I’m simple that way.

If there is such a dichotomy between before and after the law is written on men’s hearts, why have we seen no apparent difference in men’s hearts?

 

[David D]

I see the law of faith as this it, is through faith that we are saved.
I see the works of the law as evidence of our faith.
I believe as we walk righteously we must be careful not to become self righteous and we must live the Fathers ways in love as that is what the law teaches. The law also shows us what we deserve for our transgressions against God and our need for attonement.

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-31‬ ‭KJVA‬‬

 

[Cap]

Theories are fine, but the proof is in the pudding.
I’m simple that way.

If there is such a dichotomy between before and after the law is written on men’s hearts, why have we seen no apparent difference in men’s hearts?

Isn't this Christianity. I mean real Christianity, not the fake stuff.

 

[steve]

Isn't this Christianity. I mean real Christianity, not the fake stuff.

That’s the company line, but shouldn’t we expect to see some fruit?
Why so much fake stuff if the Creator of the universe has downloaded the new app in our operating systems? Quite frankly, it makes Him appear impotent.

 

[Cap]

That’s the company line, but shouldn’t we expect to see some fruit?
Why so much fake stuff if the Creator of the universe has downloaded the new app in our operating systems? Quite frankly, it makes Him appear impotent.

I can vouch for fruit in my life. I wouldn't be where I am if it wasn't for the ongoing ingathering. And I think others here could say the same thing. What exactly are we looking for?

One stone at a time.

 

[steve]

I can vouch for fruit in my life. I wouldn't be where I am if it wasn't for the ongoing ingathering. And I think others here could say the same thing. What exactly are we looking for?

One stone at a time.

How is your testimony any different than anybody in the OT ?

 

[Cap]

How is your testimony any different than anybody in the OT ?

Yes, I would say if it is from a specific point in time where they were. We live in a much different world from them thanks to the Good News, that is being delivered to more than just a few people.

Besides a handful of people touched, for the most part they did not live in a world with much hope.

 

[Joleneakamama]

The tricky part is that we only know our own reality and cannot really know how we compare to others, especially others who lived thousands of years ago.
Paul wrote that some of the gentiles showed the law written on their hearts....and that would explain why so many converted.
I have seen big changes in some family members that can only be called fruit....fitting the scriptural list.

 

[steve]

None of these answers add up to the wholesale changes that one should be able to expect when the Almighty makes good on His promise.
I guess that I just have faith for bigger things in the future.

 

[Slumberfreeze]

If there is such a dichotomy between before and after the law is written on men’s hearts, why have we seen no apparent difference in men’s hearts?

Why so much fake stuff if the Creator of the universe has downloaded the new app in our operating systems? Quite frankly, it makes Him appear impotent.

My terror is that just like Jesus alluded to in the parable of the sower (4 soils) of the 4 different types of people who have the Son of Man offered, only 3 receive Him, and only 1 appropriates Him according to expectation. Lumped with "narrow is the path that leads to life and few find it" and "Many are called but few are chosen", I can say that I expect there to be massive changes in people, but only a very few people. Most people (I say with a sick feeling in my gut) I expect to see nothing from, without regard to what they claim their beliefs are.

I guess that I just have faith for bigger things in the future.

I think so. Then again, even when Jesus is ruling the earth directly and (I assume) the law of the land and the law of Moses are one and the same; the hearts of the people are rebellious and all Satan has to do is show up and the whole world comes together to try to de-throne Him.