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Torah vs Grace?

The Christian dilemma is found in that salvation renews the heart but the mind must be renewed as well. Most remain spiritually immature and do not develop into mature Christians. This is not God's responsibility but rather it is ours. We must study and pursue the relationship with the Spirit and discard worldly thinking. Most just follow their feelings and their fleshly desires. Hence, the many who profess yet demonstrate little change. but at least, "they haven't killed anyone."
 
steve said:
None of these answers add up to the wholesale changes that one should be able to expect when the Almighty makes good on His promise.
I guess that I just have faith for bigger things in the future.
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I do agree that where we are now is no where near where it will be in the future. But it now is the small cloud as big as a man's hand, but there is more to come. It's the progression that matters.
 
The progression does matter. We will see how it shakes out.
 
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FWIW, the ones claiming Christianity with no fruit may very well be a symptom of the Tares. During the Evangelistic movement in late history, so much emphasis was placed on joining Christianity that many false swearers were transplanted en masse into the Christianity ranks. We’re about 3 generations removed from that now. Is it truly any wonder why we have so many today who have claimed/taken His name in vain?

Its a Hosea 4, 5 scenario. It will end with the pronouncement, They have dealt treacherously against the LORD, for they have begotten strange children. Now shall a month devour them with their portions. Hosea 5:7
 
I must admit, taking a step back, that discussions like this just make me think of the blind men and the elephant.

I find myself nodding in agreement with many details stated from both perspectives. Details that in some cases are contradictory. So I don't think I can quite see the whole elephant yet.
It was six men of Indostan,
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.

The First approach'd the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
"God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!"

The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, -"Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear,
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!"

The Third approach'd the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
"I see," -quoth he- "the Elephant
Is very like a snake!"

The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee:
"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," -quoth he,-
"'Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!"

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said- "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!"

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Then, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
"I see," -quoth he,- "the Elephant
Is very like a rope!"

And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

MORAL,

So, oft in theologic wars
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean;
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!
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This may need another thread to discuss. Recently I was challenged on my OSAS stance (once saved always saved)
It was a friend who was decidedly anti Calvin, but was also anti OSAS and also anti “lose” your salvation.

Basically his challenge accepted eternal salvation, but challenged the fact that it was unconditional. For multiple stated reasons/scriptures but summed up: If ye abide . . .

I had started the conversation by saying that I was reexamining OSAS because of what I had learned about the marriage covenant. That Biblical marriage was a conditional covenant, not an unconditional covenant.

I have to say that at this point, OSAS and “losing” your salvation appear to me to be a false dichotomy. If ye abide, its eternal. If you walk away . . . You haven’t lost it, you’ve rebelled and rejected it. The next question in my mind, is restoration possible post-covenant rejection?
 
Seeing Hebrews 6 through the lens of Deuteronomy 24:1-4, I'd say that it's a good idea not to join yourself to another after leaving the first covenant, else, I think this is the principle Heb. 6 relies on to show there is not a way back. Romans 7:1-6ish confirms.

My hearts says, 'grace,' but Scripture issues a pretty stern warning. Methinks it is very risky to play with rejecting Messiah for another.
 
Acts 3:21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Restoration of everything.

IMO, Everything and everyone will end up where they and it needs to be in the end.

For God to be good He can't lose anything he created.
 
People want their salvation to be safe.
They want Yah to snap a chalk line for the exact boundary. Then they want Him to put Donald’s border wall on the far side of it in case it’s too dark out, or the sun gets in their eyes and they might wander over it.
They often don’t want to live in relationship with Him and make abiding in Him far from the danger zone their safety.

I once read a JARS (Jungle Aviation something something) brochure that explained how when landing on a rough airstrip and you are trying to avoid a rock or a stump, the safest plan is to focus on where you want the plane to be, not where you don’t want it. If you focus on not hitting the rock, you invariably get drawn to that rock.
If we focus on where we think that the chalk line would be, we may very well spend half of our time pulling ourselves back across it.
 
Same principle on a motorcycle... look where you want it to go, not at what you are trying to miss... or, focusing on the tractor trailer in the lane beside you is worse than being caught in a tractor beam...
 
Verifyveritas76 said:
This may need another thread to discuss. Recently I was challenged on my OSAS stance (once saved always saved)
It was a friend who was decidedly anti Calvin, but was also anti OSAS and also anti “lose” your salvation.

Basically his challenge accepted eternal salvation, but challenged the fact that it was unconditional. For multiple stated reasons/scriptures but summed up: If ye abide . . .

I had started the conversation by saying that I was reexamining OSAS because of what I had learned about the marriage covenant. That Biblical marriage was a conditional covenant, not an unconditional covenant.

I have to say that at this point, OSAS and “losing” your salvation appear to me to be a false dichotomy. If ye abide, its eternal. If you walk away . . . You haven’t lost it, you’ve rebelled and rejected it. The next question in my mind, is restoration possible post-covenant rejection?
Click to expand...

I could bring many verses to show you that OSAS is wrong, that you can't have your salvation taken, but you can rebel (or just not abide) and loose it. But instead I'll expand upon a Pauline metaphor...

You can't earn a spot in the military, it is given to you so long as you meet pre-reqs, but you have to turn your life over to them to get it.
You can't have your membership taken from you (generally). But if you go AWOL or disobey orders you'll be kicked out.
All you have to do to stay is obey. (and hiding from your commander doesn't count)
 
With the idea of OSAS to be valid one would have to know if someone was truly saved in the first place. I don't think any of us have that ability.
 
Cap said:
With the idea of OSAS to be valid one would have to know if someone was truly saved in the first place.
Click to expand...
Good point. I haven't seen the book of life laying around lately. I'd say anyone claiming knowlege like that is less then reverent.
 
Cap said:
With the idea of OSAS to be valid one would have to know if someone was truly saved in the first place. I don't think any of us have that ability.
Click to expand...
True, but God knows who He has saved. Jesus said, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.” And Paul wrote, in 2 Tim. 2:19; Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His."
 
rockfox said:
I could bring many verses to show you that OSAS is wrong, that you can't have your salvation taken, but you can rebel (or just not abide) and loose it. But instead I'll expand upon a Pauline metaphor...

You can't earn a spot in the military, it is given to you so long as you meet pre-reqs, but you have to turn your life over to them to get it.
You can't have your membership taken from you (generally). But if you go AWOL or disobey orders you'll be kicked out.
All you have to do to stay is obey. (and hiding from your commander doesn't count)
Click to expand...
Yep!

No one can take you out of His hand, but you. Hebrews 6:4-6. (Among many others)
 
frederick said:
Hypothetical situation; v:6 if they fall away.... there could be no possibility of being saved again.
Reality is, Jesus doesn't lose any of His sheep.
Click to expand...
Like Judas? Chosen by Christ? The foreknowledge of Christ does not negate the fact that Judas chose to fall away. How about Nicholaus? (Acts 6:5 the namesake of the Nicholaitans).

Hebrews 3:6-19 is a great case in point. Highlighting those in the past who were rejected after covenant, exhorting those in the present to hold fast to the end, and warning future readers to be cautious and steadfast.

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.

The New Testament is full of passages affirming this same principle, as are early writings. As I mentioned earlier, the eternal security of the believer is a very true fact, but it is not unconditional. It is also not something that can be lost . . . .but it can be rejected. If it could not be, the concept of apostasy would not exist.

It seems there are 4 possibilities. Not just 2.
  1. The steadfast believer. Has it, nurtures and cultivates his relationship with his Lord.
  2. The late bloomer. Has it, stagnant and lukewarm, at least for the moment. May be like a John Mark who becomes profitable to the kingdom after being initially unprofitable.
  3. The false swearer. Can’t lose what’cha don’t have. Simon Magus
  4. The apostate. Had it, rejected it. Nicholas and Judas, Alexander and Hymenaeus 1 Tim 1:20
I was where you are. But this topic is kind of like poly. Once you see it, you cant unsee it. And it starts popping up everywhere you look in Scripture. In verses you’d swear you’d read before.
 
Verifyveritas76 said:
Like Judas? Chosen by Christ? The foreknowledge of Christ does not negate the fact that Judas chose to fall away. How about Nicholaus? (Acts 6:5 the namesake of the Nicholaitans).

Hebrews 3:6-19 is a great case in point. Highlighting those in the past who were rejected after covenant, exhorting those in the present to hold fast to the end, and warning future readers to be cautious and steadfast.

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.

The New Testament is full of passages affirming this same principle, as are early writings. As I mentioned earlier, the eternal security of the believer is a very true fact, but it is not unconditional. It is also not something that can be lost . . . .but it can be rejected. If it could not be, the concept of apostasy would not exist.

It seems there are 4 possibilities. Not just 2.
  1. The steadfast believer. Has it, nurtures and cultivates his relationship with his Lord.
  2. The late bloomer. Has it, stagnant and lukewarm, at least for the moment. May be like a John Mark who becomes profitable to the kingdom after being initially unprofitable.
  3. The false swearer. Can’t lose what’cha don’t have. Simon Magus
  4. The apostate. Had it, rejected it. Nicholas and Judas, Alexander and Hymenaeus 1 Tim 1:20
I was where you are. But this topic is kind of like poly. Once you see it, you cant unsee it. And it starts popping up everywhere you look in Scripture. In verses you’d swear you’d read before.
Click to expand...
Are you someone, anyone, a person? Then start with who Jesus Christ is and not who you are. He said, And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
So, if He says what He will do; give eternal life, then believe Him to be able to keep His word and no one can defeat Him - He is God. Start with Him and who He is. Neither you nor "anyone" else knows more or can do more than Him! If you think you know more or can do more than Him and defeat His salvific work, you are mistaken.
 
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