Ultimatums

[Keith Martin]

OK, I will scour the web for resources on these steps two and three that you outlined, but I don't know if the desire for this particular young woman is going to go anywhere. That usually doesn't go away until the last hope for a relationship with whomever she may be, has completely dissipated, which usually tanks any motivation that I have for working on helping my wife accept polygamy. You are right about hiding it. I hid it for quite some time, but she suspected something, which I determined not to confirm or deny, and gave her an alternative possible reason for not telling her, that at least got her off my back. I only stated that I would never engage in sexual relations with a woman outside of a marriage, because she thought that it had gone that far.

I always recommend to boys and men that they concern themselves far more with whether or not females have desire for them than with whether they have sufficient desire. When it comes down to it, men are far less picky about whom they want to pursue. What I'm suggesting is that it may be worthwhile to shift a great deal of one's focus from whether or not one desires a particular woman to not only whether one is desired by her but also to other concerns related to the strength of the marriage one already has, which includes massaging one's own desires to ensure that one falls in love over and over again with the wife one already has.

Subterfuge almost always reaps the very negative rewards The Adversary intended.

I quoted myself because the same thought came to mind when I read what you wrote about how the fizzling out of a potential relationship tanks your motivation for teaching your wife about polygamy. Sometimes our subterfuge isn't even primarily intended to fool our beloved; sometimes its purpose is to fool ourselves. The wisdom that others have shared with you about first establishing the foundation for a plural family by becoming one-mind with the woman with whom you are already one-flesh is priceless. I feel certain it is wisdom @andrew shared with me soon after meeting him a couple years ago. The reasons its value are legion, but begin with these two:

1. One's present wife is already one's partner, so, please excuse the redundancy, everything partners do should be done in partnership. Any groundwork one attempts to skip will reap commensurate negative ramifications if one pushes forward without being in partnership.
2. The manner in which one conducts one's primary/first/initial marriage/partnership is the paramount marketing tool for how one will conduct one's potential plural marriage. I put this in sales language on purpose. We are only practicing subterfuge with ourselves if we don't (a) recognize that we need to close more than one sale on the way toward forming plural families [the first sale is with one's first wife, followed by closing the sale with one's next wife], or (b) recognize that any potential wife who isn't brain damaged is going to be watching very carefully how we conduct ourselves with the women to whom we're already married.

If we delude ourselves into believing that it doesn't matter to a potential wife how we relate to our first wives, then we're the ones with brain damage, because we'll be foolishly wondering why one woman after another considers us but never approaches sealing the deal.

 

[andrew]

Slow clap....

 

[Keith Martin]

And, @andrew, it was as if you were going to be a fly on the wall today when you gave me that slow clap last night, because I've already demonstrated this morning the reason why it was only appropriate that I included myself (by writing 'we') in the advice I handed out yesterday evening: at the moment, I'm still in the process of calming myself down after yelling at Kristin for asserting that, "You're just being mean," related to a position I have about an expectation I have for our daughters (what it is is irrelevant to this discussion). Clearly, something about being assigned a nefarious motivation for my position hooked me to the degree that I abandoned being confidently dispassionate in my communication with Kristin -- and, as I sit here stewing, have considered making more than one ultimatum in the midst of running several other unproductive reactions through my angry brain -- but here are the more salient points:

• It doesn't matter whether Kristin was right or wrong in her speaking to me; what matters is that I didn't have the confidence of my own authority to simply listen to her and then repeat my dispassionate rationale for sustaining the expectation; and, more directly pertinent to the advice I handed out last night . . .
• Had a prospective second wife been present, I would have more likely persuaded her to run screaming for the exits than to believe creating a plural family with me was a rational choice on her part; and
• Therefore, the current incomplete status of putting my own house in order demonstrates the not-ready reason for why additional wives have not yet shown up in my life.

Does that mean I will give up? It does not. But it does mean that, if I'm serious about creating a plural family, I have to ensure that I'm consistently honest with myself about where I am lacking in the leadership I provide for the family I already have.

 

[steve]

Go @Keith Martin
Thank you for being able to communicate your process with us .
It helps.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

I'm having a range of emotions that pines for the days of the cave man.

 

[Keith Martin]

I'm having a range of emotions that pines for the days of the cave man.

Be careful what you wish for.

Most of what we envision cave-man days were like is based on unsubstantiated mythology, because it presupposes validity on the part of Charles Darwin's pencil drawings of knuckle draggers.

But if we stipulate that such cave-man days actually existed, if a genie popped up and granted your wish to go back to those days, you would most likely have just wished yourself into dead status, because you're already far older than the imagined average life expectancy of those cave men. And if you were 'lucky' enough to be one of the rare elder statesmen, being able to force women and children to do your bidding would be among the very small number of perks they might have had back then as compared to life in our time. Not only would you not have whatever gizmo you're using to communicate with us here, but you wouldn't have a telephone, a washing machine, running water, a toilet, air-conditioning or heating (much less a dwelling that would protect you from anything but rain), the protection of police or the military, automobiles, bicycles or any but the most rudimentary of tools. I hope you love nuts, berries and raw meat you killed by hand, too, because you likely wouldn't have fire, either, because that would have come at an evolutionary stage beyond the cave man.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

I was half joking. You forgot to mention trombones. What would I ever do without one?

 

[Keith Martin]

I was half joking. You forgot to mention trombones. What would I ever do without one?

Oh, yeah? Well, I was half joking, too!

And what would you do as a cave man without a trombone? The same thing every boy does until he gets his own trombone: you'd make fart noises any way you could think up to make them! (And my authority on that comment is that it comes from my children's former high school band director; he regularly asserts that that is why almost all the boys -- and girls, which is why there are fewer of them -- who gravitate to low brass instruments do so.)

OK. I'm ready (or am I?) for my spanking for getting off-message (or am I?).

 

[The Revolting Man]

And, @andrew... what matters is that I didn't have the confidence of my own authority to simply listen to her and then repeat my dispassionate rationale for sustaining the expectation...

If I were to ever get a tattoo on my forehead, this would be what it says; in gold and possibly with some kind of blinking light to draw my attention to it every time I looked in the mirror.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

Well while I don't agree with Hovind on things like not paying taxes and polygamy, I am in general agreement on most of his ideas regarding the age of the earth and YEC. We had Dr. Hugh Ross at my church, and I had an opportunity to challenge him during the Q&A. He cut off the Q&A, after I came back with two follow ups. That was fun. Now I suppose I need to get ready for my spanking.

 

[rejoicinghandmaid]

I'm having a range of emotions that pines for the days of the cave man.

Sorry dude--maybe they DID live in caves--some of them and at some time before they began their architectural wonders, but the the anti-deluvian society was so far advanced beyond ours, we'll probably never comprehend it. The idea of "cave men" is purely and simply derived from Darwin's mental and spiritual train wreck!

 

[rejoicinghandmaid]

Well while I don't agree with Hovind on things like not paying taxes and polygamy, I am in general agreement on most of his ideas regarding the age of the earth and YEC. We had Dr. Hugh Ross at my church, and I had an opportunity to challenge him during the Q&A. He cut off the Q&A, after I came back with two follow ups. That was fun. Now I suppose I need to get ready for my spanking.

@Keith Martin and @Daniel DeLuca -- okay--both of you "bend over" as my dad used to say! JK!!!!! No WAIT--I don't want to say this because that means I have to agree with "what's good for the goose is good for the gander"! I DON'T want to say I'm willing to "take my spanking" every time I derail a thread--Oh my! Life wouldn't be fun any more!

 

[Keith Martin]

Spankings can definitely have their place.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

Spankings can definitely have their place.

My wife would definitely agree to that!

 

[Patricia C]

My wife has said if I go down this road she will leave. I have been trying for three years. I have one choice with her. Just pretend I am not made this way for her. Any other choice and she said she is leaving. She said no matter what she will never do it. Period

@JustUs from what I have seen this past year I would urge you to please don't jump to quickly. Give yourself time to get to know the community. Study, pray and give your wife all the love you promised to give her. Lead your family you have been blessed with before abandoning (letting your wife slip through your fingers) the family in pursuit of a plural marriage. Many learn that plural marriage is acceptable and not against Biblical law. However not everyone will actually go down this path. It is not easy for anyone including those who believe in Pologny. I have seen quite a few who through time decided they can support those who are living a pologinous life but they themselves cannot. There is no fault in the latter. I do believe it is of the utmost importance to master the marriage commitment you have before adding another into the mix.
I pray you both find peace and the right path for your family.
Shalom

 

[The Revolting Man]

My wife has said if I go down this road she will leave. I have been trying for three years. I have one choice with her. Just pretend I am not made this way for her. Any other choice and she said she is leaving. She said no matter what she will never do it. Period

The vast majority of us will never actually be polygynous.

 

[Mojo]

Is that because it is too inconvenient?

In reality, it's not like going down to the market and picking up a bottle of milk and paying for it.

1) The number of women willing to enter a pre-made family is small.
2) The godly women willing to do it is even smaller.
3) Putting it all together isn't a simple recipe and there are no manuals.

I could go on, but it's often just not feasible for many due to cultural reasons as well.

 

[Patricia C]

Thank you for your response. Is there any point, in your opinion, where the the husband should follow his convictions even if the wife is in full rebellion? If so, when?

When you married your wife did she know you desire for having a plural marriage? If it was not an understanding or a part of your marriage from the beginning then the first commitment is to the first marriage contract or as many consider it, a covenant you made with your wife and God. It may be your conviction but you also can't change the rules to a covenant you made and not expect your wife to jump on board just because this is your conviction. If it is truly a conviction or "calling" on your life it will remain until the ends of time. Give your wife all the love you have, reassure her you love her and want her. And pray! Develop your relationship with Yahweh learn all you can about His word and will for your life and Pray. Patience is a virtue you will need to cultivate especially if you have more than one wife LOL we can be a hand full. Try not to force feed your wife but guide and lead with live and compassion. I don't know about you but when I have been forcefully made to do something my knee jerk reaction is to turn away. I think that is a common response. But when approached with gentleness, kindness and love it goes down so much better.
When and if you are faithful with being a good steward with little then He knows you will be faithful with much. Thus master what you have before you add to your family.
I hope this helps and I will lift you and your wife in my thoughts and prayers. This isn't an easy choice.

 

[Phillip]

Thank you for your response. Is there any point, in your opinion, where the the husband should follow his convictions even if the wife is in full rebellion? If so, when?

I recently resigned as worship leader at a church. I had been there for almost two years. But people were coming to me about issues that could have led to me being in a ‘jezebel spirit’. So, instead of allowing a leadership issue in the church, I stepped down. The churches issues are smoothing out. My wife was in disagreement with my decision, but I felt and still feel it was the right decision. The church people and leadership are doing good. My resignation has created the atmosphere of fixing problems together. My wife was in disagreement with stepping down. But she sees it is resulting in a good thing. (It’s also a small step of my wife submitting to my authority as head of household) we are working towards a BF, one step at a time.

 

[Patricia C]

And, @andrew, it was as if you were going to be a fly on the wall today when you gave me that slow clap last night, because I've already demonstrated this morning the reason why it was only appropriate that I included myself (by writing 'we') in the advice I handed out yesterday evening: at the moment, I'm still in the process of calming myself down after yelling at Kristin for asserting that, "You're just being mean," related to a position I have about an expectation I have for our daughters (what it is is irrelevant to this discussion). Clearly, something about being assigned a nefarious motivation for my position hooked me to the degree that I abandoned being confidently dispassionate in my communication with Kristin -- and, as I sit here stewing, have considered making more than one ultimatum in the midst of running several other unproductive reactions through my angry brain -- but here are the more salient points:

• It doesn't matter whether Kristin was right or wrong in her speaking to me; what matters is that I didn't have the confidence of my own authority to simply listen to her and then repeat my dispassionate rationale for sustaining the expectation; and, more directly pertinent to the advice I handed out last night . . .
• Had a prospective second wife been present, I would have more likely persuaded her to run screaming for the exits than to believe creating a plural family with me was a rational choice on her part; and
• Therefore, the current incomplete status of putting my own house in order demonstrates the not-ready reason for why additional wives have not yet shown up in my life.

Does that mean I will give up? It does not. But it does mean that, if I'm serious about creating a plural family, I have to ensure that I'm consistently honest with myself about where I am lacking in the leadership I provide for the family I already have.

Wow! Keith I commend you for being so honest. I have been off here for a while and I must say you have come a long way since we met. You are doing good proud of you. .... Not that my opinion matters in your world but it is a huge contrast from where you came.