Ultimatums

[FollowingHim]

Is that because it is too inconvenient?

Also, statistically, even in societies that are nominally polygamous, the majority of men are monogamous.
And some men really should not have more than one wife (some shouldn't even have one...).

We're not here to encourage everyone to be polygamous. Rather, we're here to encourage people to have marriages run along Biblical lines. Most of the time, that means monogamy. Sometimes it means polygamy, and it's wonderful when God brings that together. But it is not a failure to be monogamous, not by any means. And I have found I have spent far more time here encouraging people NOT to be polygamous (when they're approaching it for the wrong reasons or in the wrong situation), than supporting people to be polygamous.

 

[Patricia C]

I didn't even know. I thought something was wrong with me based on society so how could I have warned her. As her husband I do have a right to change the direction of our family if I feel it is best. And she doesn't have the right to give me an ultimatum when I do that. She is to submit in all things not just convenient things to her. but all that being said you did post some great thought-provoking questions. I am not going to force this on her. Even if I had the right to do so I don't want to break her. I want to cherish her take care of her but I will have to address the fact that she does not have the right to be rebellious get her convenience. Now how do I go about doing that I have no idea but it will be in love and she will be my wife through this whole process or the process will be halted and God can deal with her thank you

I pray, you both all the best. We are all (ok most) are here to encourage and support you and this crazy journey. Be blessed

 

[steve]

Is there any point, in your opinion, where the the husband should follow his convictions

Convictions?
You can be convicted that polygyny is acceptable to YHWH, but where do you get the conviction that you, personally, should participate?

 

[The Revolting Man]

Is that because it is too inconvenient?

Even in the most polygynous of societies only 15% of the marriages are plural (that number has been rattling around the forum for a while and I can't back it up off the top of me head but it proves the point.) That means most of us are never going to live the life and have to promote and support it for those who do.

 

[cnystrom]

As her husband I do have a right to change the direction of our family if I feel it is best. And she doesn't have the right to give me an ultimatum when I do that.

I think just like maybe you did not know that more than one wife was a righteous option in marriage for you when you married, maybe she did not realize how absolute the vow to obedience was when she made it.

So I think couples need to adjust and grow together in love and understanding of Christian marriage as they come to have a clearer understanding of what it is. Be firm, but gentle and loving.

So we as a community have an educational challenge to teach two things that are not commonly taught but are very important:

1. Men! Don't take those vows of monogamy. You do not have to!

2. Women! Be very, very careful if you get married and who you marry. You don't have to do it, but if you do you will have to obey him for the rest of your life! Is that really what you want? Count the cost!

 

[rockfox]

What should I say to her when she says I am being selfish.

"Was I being selfish when I married you?"

Ironically, if you look at Genesis, the purpose of marriage was for the woman to be a helper for the man. In other words, marriage is selfish, benefiting self; from the perspective of man.

It's kind of like an employee saying to the boss, "you're just being selfish to hire another employee. what about meeeeee".

 

[Patricia C]

What should I say to her when she says I am being selfish.

Absolutely nothing! We are all allowed our own opinions that doesn't mean they are always right. Instead of fighting with her which will only upset her be peaceable and choose not to engage. Let your actions or lack thereof be what wins her.
Just my thought.

 

[rockfox]

Absolutely nothing! We are all allowed our own opinions that doesn't mean they are always right. Instead of fighting with her which will only upset her be peaceable and choose not to engage. Let your actions or lack thereof be what wins her.
Just my thought.

Just shutting up when women bring their objections is an under-appreciated approach. It has it's place depending on the circumstances.

 

[steve]

Just shutting up when women bring their objections is an under-appreciated approach. It has it's place depending on the circumstances.

So.......what I hear you saying is that it is possible.

 

[Keith Martin]

Wow! Keith I commend you for being so honest. I have been off here for a while and I must say you have come a long way since we met. You are doing good proud of you. .... Not that my opinion matters in your world but it is a huge contrast from where you came.

Thank you, Patricia.

 

[Keith Martin]

Convictions?
You can be convicted that polygyny is acceptable to YHWH, but where do you get the conviction that you, personally, should participate?

Hi @steve.

I find that a very interesting question -- and one that I've asked myself on more than one occasion. I don't pretend to have some kind of uber-enlightened answer, but I'd like to run one by you (and others who are reading); I just want to know what you think about it, because I like how you distinguished between having a conviction about polygyny being acceptable to our Father and having a belief that I should personally participate:

I'm wondering if the only appropriate time for me (or perhaps anyone else) to come to the conviction-level conclusion that I should participate in polygyny would require all of the following to be true:

1. Convinced that my Lord approves of polygyny.
2. Convinced that I have a true desire to be the head of a plural family.
3. Open, full communication with my pre-existing family about the possibility of becoming a plural family.
4. Actual existence in my life of a woman I'd be interested in dating toward marriage within a plural family (as in, God placed her steps to enter my life).
5. Open, full communication with said woman (and any relevant children of hers) about the possibility of permanently becoming part of a plural family with me and my already-existing family.
6. Mutual expression of desire to form such a relationship.
7. Creation and implementation of covenants to that effect.

Part of what I'm asserting here is that it wouldn't be my place to have a conviction about my participation in plural marriage if God hadn't yet (or perhaps ever) transformed my reality in such a way that the opportunity was fully present.

 

[steve]

Part of what I'm asserting here is that it wouldn't be my place to have a conviction about my participation in plural marriage if God hadn't yet (or perhaps ever) transformed my reality in such a way that the opportunity was fully present.

Not really the way that I see it, if I understand you correctly. People usually don’t have to be convicted by YHWH to do what they would like to do and the way looks clear to do.

Let’s put it in a different realm.
You come to a retreat and at the end you feel convicted to kick in an extra hundred $ towards the expenses of the gig. No biggy, you probably won’t miss it so it doesn’t take a lot of conviction.
But let’s say that your family is going to buy a sailboat on the way home and you are carrying ten grand in cash for the purchase. Then you feel convicted to bless someone with that cash and you sit down with your family and work through A) Was the conviction even from YHWH, and B) Will everyone that is affected by this decision be ok with it. After all, the family had a goal for the use of the money and arbitrarily deciding that you should follow your conviction may seem a little unfair to the rest.

For a male, polygyny can be very self-serving and feeling convicted to do it can be very self-serving.
YHWH would rather we take care of our households and expand judiciously, than perceive a mandate from YHWH and trample our family in the process of seeking to obey Him. And I realize that the scenario that you laid out doesn’t include trampling your family.

I just do not believe that living in ones convictions requires them to live the lifestyle. It is an opportunity to live the lifestyle IF it fits in with the responsibilities that you already have towards your family.

 

[Keith Martin]

Well said, Steve. I think any perceived disagreement between us on this predominantly comes down to my failure to properly and fully understand the word 'conviction' as you're using it. I also agree that having a conviction doesn't require that one actualize it in one's own life.

I was more struggling to articulate that one would know that polygyny was God's Will for one when one had already successfully integrated it into the lives of his family and himself.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

Ex

Thank you for your response. Is there any point, in your opinion, where the the husband should follow his convictions even if the wife is in full rebellion? If so, when?

Excellent question! If you made a foolish vow to forsake all others, it would be God honoring to get your wife to allow you out of that vow, instead of breaking that vow without said permission. For me, I think I have found that pointing out the grim statistics of men, who needed more than just one wife, and who slipped up and committed fornication, or even adultery, somewhat has allowed my wife to break free of the delusion that a man should only desire one wife. She still has not come to terms with the notion of allowing me to have a second wife, but at least she doesn't think that I am some sort of pervert, and the reality of the matter is, you cannot have any sort of conversation with your wife about this until she understands this. My wife wouldn't talk to me for a whole week one time after I brought this up. After we started seeing a marriage counselor, she revealed that she has gotten over the hurt that she originally felt.

Progress can be slow, but I figure if I am not patient enough for her to come around, I won't be patient enough to deal with the struggles of trying to keep two wives happy. My desires for a second wife have not changed, but that just drives my passion for spreading the truth through every avenue that I can find. For one thing, I want my church to accept polygamy, before I engage in it, and trying to influence people in my church, is a monumental task, and opportunities don't always present themselves to bring up this topic. Fortunately for me, when our class went through Matt 19, my wife was not there. I was able to argue the fact that there are different requirements for men and women, when it comes to divorce and remarriage, which didn't set well with everybody, much less, the leader of the class, but I was able to sit down with him one on one and discuss what the Bible says, and of course, explain the reasons for those differences being that polyandry and polyamory are specifically forbidden, while polygyny, is not. The more people we can persuade, the greater audience we can reach, until one day, polygyny will be seen no differently than drinking or predestination, namely, a controversy, but not something that should keep those who practice it, out of fellowship with other believers. At which point, my wife and yours, will be much less hesitant to allow us out of that foolish vow.

 

[PeteR]

@steve and @Keith Martin re:convictions.

My wife and I have had this conversation several times with her general position being 'we can be convinced that it is okay with God according to His laws without participating' while I am asking, 'why would He even show this to us, walk us through thisvrefinjng fire and give me a desire to love you and another if we aren't supposed to go there?'

I do recognize part of the answer is self evident... refining fire... and, part of the answer may be to prepare our sons for the Father's next larger move in their generation. Still, neither is entirely satisfactory. I'm left with what feels like a sucking chest wound because I have what seems a God-given desire that is unfillable....

His timing will answer the question, but not without more fire, I presume.

 

[steve]

@Ancient Paths, when you got married was it something that you felt compelled to do? I mean before you met the woman who is now your wife.
Did you feel a mandate from YHWH that now that you were available for marriage that you just needed to find the right one and tie that knot?

 

[Pacman]

@steve and @Keith Martin re:convictions.

My wife and I have had this conversation several times with her general position being 'we can be convinced that it is okay with God according to His laws without participating' while I am asking, 'why would He even show this to us, walk us through thisvrefinjng fire and give me a desire to love you and another if we aren't supposed to go there?'

I do recognize part of the answer is self evident... refining fire... and, part of the answer may be to prepare our sons for the Father's next larger move in their generation. Still, neither is entirely satisfactory. I'm left with what feels like a sucking chest wound because I have what seems a God-given desire that is unfillable....

His timing will answer the question, but not without more fire, I presume.

Well said!

 

[Pacman]

@Ancient Paths, when you got married was it something that you felt compelled to do? I mean before you met the woman who is now your wife.
Did you feel a mandate from YHWH that now that you were available for marriage that you just needed to find the right one and tie that knot?

I did...

 

[PeteR]

@Ancient Paths, when you got married was it something that you felt compelled to do? I mean before you met the woman who is now your wife.
Did you feel a mandate from YHWH that now that you were available for marriage that you just needed to find the right one and tie that knot?

To a degree yes. Maybe the best way to put it us that through adolescence I knew I was incomplete without fulfilling my purpose as husband and father, so marriage was a foregone conclusion. Dating, upon returning from a combat zone, was with purpose. That purpose scared some away and was a refuge for one. So, I guess, yes! When I was ready, I felt compelled to fulfill my purpose.

 

[Mage]

I did...

I did and do too. I know what your talking about.

I learned the hard way to wait on the Lord's timing and not my own. Otherwise you could end up in a situation you don't want to be in.

I pray for patience as much as I pray for another. If it is God's plan it will happen His way and in His timing.