Under a father's covering until marriage?

[PaulP]

THAT'S HIM! he must have a reputation

I knew it! Gosh that guy has some things to work through. Anywho. Glad we have managed to infuriate the same child. Now we have something in common lol

 

[FollowingHim]

One correction, Samuel: (For the reader, since I suspect you know this.)

She does NOT have the Authority, according to Scripture, to issue a "certificate of divorce," nor to "put him away."

But in a world where "law" doesn't mean $#!t - and isn't worth the NY paper it's printed on - she can do whatever she can get away with, and men who hate His Word will call it "legal."

Lawlessness abounds.

I was thinking about this today, and I think we need to be a bit more flexible about it than that.

Obviously the woman does not have the scriptural authority to divorce her husband - it is he who has the authority to divorce her. So if a woman unilaterally decides to "divorce" her husband but he does not agree to this, still considering her to be his wife, still acting towards her as if she was his wife, and continually leaving his door open for her to return, then she is not divorced and is still his wife.

However:

1) If she initiated the divorce, but he ultimately signed it also, then he has divorced her.

2) If she initiated the divorce, and he chose not to sign it at the time, but has subsequently rejected her - in other words, his door is no longer open for her to return - then he has effectively divorced her.

3) If the marriage involved no paperwork in the first place (there was no marriage licence or ketubah or other private paper record, and they were simply cohabitating), then there will be no paperwork when it ends either. Maybe there should be, but in reality, there won't be. In this case, regardless of who initiated the divorce / breakup, it again comes back to the present-day position of the husband regarding the status of that woman. If he has never rejected her, she is still his wife, but if he has rejected her then she is divorced.

4) If she hasn't heard from him in years we can safely assume he's rejected her.

We need to have this flexibility in our understanding because of the realities of modern Western culture. The majority of women are not virgins. Many were the ones who initiated the ending of their previous relationship(s). If we're too legalistic about this then the majority of these women can never marry.

The biggest risk I see is that we are so legalistic in theory that our theology becomes disconnected from reality. Then we meet a woman with a past who we would technically consider to be married and unavailable - but because we're in love with her we see this as an exception and go marry her anyway, breaking our principles. Our principles have to be realistic in the first place so we don't end up breaking them.

 

[frederick]

We need to have this flexibility in our understanding because of the realities of modern Western culture. The majority of women are not virgins. Many were the ones who initiated the ending of their previous relationship(s). If we're too legalistic about this then the majority of these women can never marry.

I would call for caution in where this might lead because the contemporary culture doesn't alter or define the truth of God's Word. The Word of God is eternal; it's timeless, unchanging, therefore we need to be bringing our thinking into line with His Word and not attempt to shape it to fit the current culture. Proverbs admonishes; Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding (Prov. 3:5). Each case involving a woman who has already been with a man (whether formally married or not) should be considered carefully so that we avoid falling into adultery. Tread carefully and establish the facts before unintentionally doing something which God condemns. Shalom

 

[FollowingHim]

I agree we must be extremely cautious here @frederick. I don't think I'm trying to shape the Word to fit the current culture, rather I am trying to understand how to see people in the world around us in the light of the Word. I'm trying to take actual people with a past of informal relationships, and find what Biblical category they fit into - who is married, who is divorced, how can you tell. I can see why it may look like I'm doing the opposite though.

 

[frederick]

I agree we must be extremely cautious here @frederick. I don't think I'm trying to shape the Word to fit the current culture, rather I am trying to understand how to see people in the world around us in the light of the Word. I'm trying to take actual people with a past of informal relationships, and find what Biblical category they fit into - who is married, who is divorced, how can you tell. I can see why it may look like I'm doing the opposite though.

Thank you for the clarification. I totally agree and that is what I wanted to draw attention to for the sake of other readers.

 

[Mark C]

I was thinking about this today, and I think we need to be a bit more flexible about it than that.

Obviously the woman does not have the scriptural authority to divorce her husband - it is he who has the authority to divorce her. So if a woman unilaterally decides to "divorce" her husband but he does not agree to this, still considering her to be his wife, still acting towards her as if she was his wife, and continually leaving his door open for her to return, then she is not divorced and is still his wife.

I am in 100% agreement, and have taught precisely this.

However:

1) If she initiated the divorce, but he ultimately signed it also, then he has divorced her.

She does, in fact, have a 'sefer keretutah.' And he signed off on it.

2) If she initiated the divorce, and he chose not to sign it at the time, but has subsequently rejected her - in other words, his door is no longer open for her to return - then he has effectively divorced her.

More problematic: How does any subsequent "husband" know???

3) If the marriage involved no paperwork in the first place (there was no marriage licence or ketubah or other private paper record, and they were simply cohabitating), then there will be no paperwork when it ends either. Maybe there should be, but in reality, there won't be.

She can (and in my experience often has) - ask.

In this case, regardless of who initiated the divorce / breakup, it again comes back to the present-day position of the husband regarding the status of that woman. If he has never rejected her, she is still his wife, but if he has rejected her then she is divorced.

Abandonment. And there is Scriptural precedent for that.

4) If she hasn't heard from him in years we can safely assume he's rejected her.

This is the one where I truly object (including for reasons that are personal and private.)

We live in a world where force is used in contravention of His Word. Men who are merely accused (see last night in USSC [sic] !) are deprived of God-given, Constitutionally-protected rights without any more than an unsupported accusation.

"Restraining orders" - based on nothing more than a potential neighbors' complaint, or a 911 call - result in THEFT of children, of self-protection devices, and mandated separation of families. Check what is actually HAPPENING in once-free AmeriKa, and has been for years. In too many cases they are "automatic," and due process is "Trumped" by a sham system of Not-Law.

Yahushua said, "What YHVH has joined together, let men not separate."

The "Almighty State" says in reply - 'F*** that,' and your God, too!'

We can 'safely assume' NOTHING when it comes to coerced actions that defy His Word.

We need to have this flexibility in our understanding because of the realities of modern Western culture. The majority of women are not virgins. Many were the ones who initiated the ending of their previous relationship(s). If we're too legalistic about this then the majority of these women can never marry.

And here's the rub. My wife 'B' knows Scripture. She knows that she remains my wife.

And there's more to the story.

Any man who claims to 'marry her' is either a damn fool, and subject to knowing lies, or worse. But is an adulterer regardless. And she knows it.

The biggest risk I see is that we are so legalistic in theory that our theology becomes disconnected from reality.

The reality is that there are women who will lie. (Same as with men.)
The reality is - admit it or not - there are women who are "packing heat" - demonically. And are still battling that 'controlling spirit.'

Then we meet a woman with a past who we would technically consider to be married and unavailable - but because we're in love with her we see this as an exception and go marry her anyway, breaking our principles. Our principles have to be realistic in the first place so we don't end up breaking them.

Our discernment had better align with our principles!

 

[paterfamilias]

I'm a little too fond of the single life haha

I am curious about what is appealing about it.

Perhaps it is normalcy bias on my part since my wife and I have been together thence the middle of high-school.
I know that if I were single I would likely be a workaholic who made way more money
I would probably be in better physical shape as I would be hitting the gym in an effort to attract woman.
I could go the bars and hang out with the boys etc.
I could go back to riding a Harley on the weekends since nobody would be harmed by my death or disability.
I could travel to other countries and chase woman all over the world and see amazing sites and have big life experiences.

Just doest have the same kind of appeal to me as wife/wives and kids normal everyday life where I don't do the normal single male thing of thrill seeking, new sexual partner chasing, trying to accumulate enough resources and power to be able to have the peacock lifestyle that motivates so many men.

I know woman are a different polarity obviously so the motives for being single are going to be different from men but the world has changed so much and I have been intentionally out of step with popular culture to the extent that I don't have a mental image of what a modern single woman without the life of partying and hookup culture is like.
The more I think about it...the more I suppose I should learn about that.
My second wife was in college and working part time as well as spending time with family. Wholesome but not anything in particular you could point at.
The fiance with whom things went sideways that the ladies wanted me to marry was from an area with almost no opportunities to work and with very little money beyond subsistence, so she simply stayed home and kept up her dad's house.

What is single life like for unmarried woman who are presumably not part of bar hopping hookup culture?

What about it is more appealing than being a wife, mom and integral part of a family?

 

[paterfamilias]

I was wondering who stood up for me because I ended up getting banned or blocked by this guy. It's ok, I imagine that sort of thing happens a lot in those groups!

Called it
The guy was butt-hurt that a woman challenged his understanding of his faith and dared to be right...in public! That &$%@@! is banned! No woman challenges My fragile ego *puffs out chest*

 

[theleastofthese]

I am curious about what is appealing about it.

It's rather peaceful; there's no one to tell you what to do or how to do it. No negotiations, no discussions. My actions and words only affect and reflect myself. Some people aren't lonely when they're alone; I'm one of those people. That's not to say I don't also desire to be a wife, have sisterwives, or see the value in bigger families, because I certainly do.

Just doest have the same kind of appeal to me as wife/wives and kids normal everyday life where I don't do the normal single male thing of thrill seeking, new sexual partner chasing, trying to accumulate enough resources and power to be able to have the peacock lifestyle that motivates so many men.

I agree with you; I think being married keeps people grounded and healthy. There are many different single life styles, though; some of us just want to binge-watch crime documentaries at midnight with a cat or dog in our bed or move to a new state on a whim.

What about it is more appealing than being a wife, mom and integral part of a family?

I'm not sure there's a list of more appealing things. It's more about what's unappealing. I tend to clash with most biblical or conservative men. They're often very ridged and stern; they ruin the fun of things. It feels more like I'm speaking to my father than a potential husband

 

[MemeFan]

It's rather peaceful; there's no one to tell you what to do or how to do it. No negotiations, no discussions. My actions and words only affect and reflect myself. Some people aren't lonely when they're alone; I'm one of those people. That's not to say I don't also desire to be a wife, have sisterwives, or see the value in bigger families, because I certainly do.

Your ideal husband is trucker who likes outsourcing stuff to wife and has practically no demand.

See, we can find good hubby for you.

But that is wrong altitude. Real question is for whom you are ideal wife?

 

[paterfamilias]

It's rather peaceful; there's no one to tell you what to do or how to do it. No negotiations, no discussions. My actions and words only affect and reflect myself.

The part about only effecting yourself makes sense

Some people aren't lonely when they're alone; I'm one of those people.

I don't either but I do certainly get bored quickly without someone there to interact with and for us to bounce ideas back and forth. Good example of me going somewhat nuts on my own was in college my wife and I had to be apart for a summer terms and a fall term. More or less 90 miles apart so I could not just commute it.
Anyway, I sent all of our furniture to school #2 and bought an ugly but comfy easy chair and kept a clock radio and a bare minimum of kitchenware and that was pretty much it..
so through the week I had nobody to talk to and just read and fretted...annoyed the hell out of the old lady that ran the used bookstore and random people at the all night Cafe with my nattering

at's not to say I don't also desire to be a wife, have sisterwives, or see the value in bigger families, because I certainly do.

Excellent goals!

I agree with you; I think being married keeps people grounded and healthy.

I suspect you are right. Married life is so much of my core identity that I suspect I would be crap at it.

There are many different single life styles, though; some of us just want to binge-watch crime documentaries at midnight with a cat or dog in our bed and move to a new state whenever we want.

Hmmmmm....skeptical about the moving state but then I don't have enough of your personal context to judge.

I am wanting to do a significant relocation myself, possibly a new state but it is such a massive and daunting notion that I dislike considering what it will be like

I'm not sure there's a list of more appealing things. It's more about what's unappealing. I tend to clash with most biblical or conservative men.

wait...you are not a hippy are you?
(playfuljoking tone)

They're often very ridged and stern; they ruin the fun of things.

I get that.
I do more than a little rigid myself on some issues, occasionally stern but try to avoid circumstances where it is required. All thing considered whimsical is more fun

It feels more like I'm speaking to my father than a potential husband

I get that...by the same token, the old saw about woman looking for men, unconsciously or not, who are like their dad probably didn't come out of nowhere so try not to let the stern and rigid thing get under your skin too much. I suspect that your dad probably was trying hard and doing his best to protect, teach and provide for you.
Some guys just slip naturally into that role whether with wife or when raising daughter. Don't think it is generally intended to be perceived as negative.

 

[Mark C]

I tend to clash with most biblical or conservative men. They're often very ridged and stern; they ruin the fun of things. It feels more like I'm speaking to my father than a potential husband

Perhaps that's why it's 'helpful' to ponder implications of the term "nakedness" in the context of 'the fun of things.'

Marriage is to be a blessing...

 

[theleastofthese]

Your ideal husband is trucker who likes outsourcing stuff to wife and has practically no demand.

See, we can find good hubby for you.

But that is wrong altitude. Real question is for whom you are ideal wife?

No one; I have too much work to do on myself to be the sort of wife I need to be for the sort of husband I want.

I don't either but I do certainly get bored quickly without someone there to interact with and for us to bounce ideas back and forth.

I can see why you like the idea of plural marriage

I suspect you are right. Married life is so much of my core identity

And that's a great thing!

wait...you are not a hippy are you?
(playfuljoking tone)

Eww

I get that.
I do more than a little rigid myself on some issues, occasionally stern but try to avoid circumstances where it is required. All thing considered whimsical is more fun

I can be as well, but many are even too much for me. I actually love structure and stability, even while being single. I'm super structured and responsible, guilty of being ridged and stubborn myself, but it's easier to accept when you're the one doing it to yourself rather than the one having it done to you lol.

I get that...by the same token, the old saw about woman looking for men, unconsciously or not, who are like their dad probably didn't come out of nowhere so try not to let the stern and rigid thing get under your skin too much. I suspect that your dad probably was trying hard and doing his best to protect, teach and provide for you.
Some guys just slip naturally into that role whether with wife or when raising daughter. Don't think it is generally intended to be perceived as negative.

You're definitely correct. I try to take that into account as well. Most of the men I've spoken with are fathers, are married, and have been for a long time. I admire and respect that; I find it very attractive. But there comes a time when things become obsessive, knit- picky, and very unappealing.

Perhaps that's why it's 'helpful' to ponder implications of the term "nakedness" in the context of 'the fun of things.'

Marriage is to be a blessing...

I agree that it is. When I reference "fun," I mean the fun of getting to know someone new, joking around, and discussing different thoughts and ideas. All with clothes on

 

[MemeFan]

Your response so much reminds me of limiting beliefs, @theleastofthese.

No one; I have too much work to do on myself to be the sort of wife I need to be for the sort of husband I want.

By the time you find yourself "ready" and "worthy", you may be in 50s. Just in time to miss joys of motherhood.

Why not just go for what you want now? After all, what we bring to relationship isn't just what we are now, but also what will we become.

There is reason ambition is favored. It's all promise of future value.

And you are still focused too on yourself and me, me,me...... Reality is that about equal value must be provided by both partners for relationship to have sense. This is why question for whom you will be perfect wife is so important. Why?

Because this is man for whom you will extraordinary valuable. And to keep you, he will be willing to provide something similar.

I agree that it is. When I reference "fun," I mean the fun of getting to know someone new, joking around, and discussing different thoughts and ideas. All with clothes on

There is whole world of sensuality to explore.

And above activities are more intimate and emotional when cuddling naked.

 

[theleastofthese]

Why not just go for what you want now?

I have to honor some commitments I made to family at the moment, I figured I may as well work on myself in the meantime

Just in time to miss joys of motherhood

I think it's safe to assume that won't be happening for me anyway.

Why not just go for what you want now? After all, what we bring to relationship isn't just what we are now, but also what will we become.

There is reason ambition is favored. It's all promise of future value.

And you are still focused too on yourself and me, me,me...... Reality is that about equal value must be provided by both partners for relationship to have sense. This is why question for whom you will be perfect wife is so important. Why?

Thank you for the wise words! Giving me some things to think about

 

[NickF]

I have too much work to do on myself to be the sort of wife I need to be for the sort of husband I want.

I don't want to pile on. But men are literally built and made for the work of helping to mold a woman into the sort of wife he needs.

 

[theleastofthese]

I don't want to pile on. But men are literally built and made for the work of helping to mold a woman into the sort of wife he needs.

It's ok, you're right as well. Thank you both!

 

[paterfamilias]

I can see why you like the idea of plural marriage

Too annoying for just one woman

I can be as well, but many are even too much for me. I actually love structure and stability, even while being single. I'm super structured and responsible, guilty of being ridged and stubborn myself, but it's easier to accept when you're the one doing it to yourself rather than the one having it done to you lol.

I am not particularly structured by nature myself but in giving my son structure i am having to walk my own talk as it were so making progress.
With respect to within a relationship, I prefer hand in glove cooperation and to never have to give an order or impose dictates. I figure if everyone is on the same page then it is rarely necessary. Can and will do the dictates thing but I figure there is a breakdown somewhere if that becomes an issue

You're definitely correct. I try to take that into account as well. Most of the men I've spoken with are fathers, are married, and have been for a long time. I admire and respect that; I find it very attractive. But there comes a time when things become obsessive, knit- picky, and very unappealing.

I am smiling at the moment because I am nit picky on some things. Generally things others think are odd. I can Always prove my points but I get how they are annoying to others when the whole rest of the world is telling them blather and it is what they are used to hearing.

 

[JeffC]

I recently had a little disagreement with someone on social media (imagine that). He proceeded to tell me that, as a woman, I couldn't "question" him. He stated that if I'm married, my husband must do so, and if I'm not, then my father should be the one speaking to him, not me.

I didn't realize that a man and woman couldn't have a simple conversation or disagreement on a public platform without a father or husband's headship. I was under the impression that a father's covering applied to women in their youth and women living in their father's household. I'm far removed from both.

Can anyone offer some insight into what a covering for unmarried women would consist of? Now I'm curious if I've been misunderstanding all along.

I believe I saw this interaction on Facebook with Joseph Cooper.

If so, he is the admin of a polygyny group. I was excited when I saw him post on a local to me marketplace group here in SW Missouri.

The more I chatted with him and have seen his interactions with others, I’ve realized he is an unhinged nutter.

He believes Jesus is Lucifer for instance. He questioned me privately very intensely about whether I am a Freemason, which I’m not. He swore it was ok if I was. Then he started going off on the Polygyny Facebook page about Freemasonry and kicking people off for it.

If the interaction I saw was you, you handled yourself very well for the circumstance.

 

[PaulP]

I believe I saw this interaction on Facebook with Joseph Cooper.

If so, he is the admin of a polygyny group. I was excited when I saw him post on a local to me marketplace group here in SW Missouri.

The more I chatted with him and have seen his interactions with others, I’ve realized he is an unhinged nutter.

He believes Jesus is Lucifer for instance. He questioned me privately very intensely about whether I am a Freemason, which I’m not. He swore it was ok if I was. Then he started going off on the Polygyny Facebook page about Freemasonry and kicking people off for it.

If the interaction I saw was you, you handled yourself very well for the circumstance.

He is definitely unhinged.