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When bringing up the subject of PM, what's the first verse you would use?

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Well, this week was non-eventful as we moved on to Matt 20. After four weeks in a row, the respite was nice. It was however somewhat eventful in the DeLuca household on Saturday morning/afternoon. My wife had a bad dream. In her dream, I told her that I had paid some woman for sex, because she was not giving me enough sex. I told her that I would never do that, but she told me that in her dream, she was very angry with me. I asked why she should be so angry. Instead of answering, she asked me why shouldn't she be angry. We had an opportunity to discuss Matt 5:32, because she said that this verse, although she couldn't point to the reference, gives her permission to divorce. I pointed out what that verse actually says. The NIV, both the newer and original, are very poor translations of that verse though, which of course did not serve me well. The word "pormeia" has been translated "marital unfaithfulness", in the original NIV, and the newer one botches the phrase"causes her to commit", replacing that with "makes her the victim", which is nowhere to be found in the original Greek. Ugh! I have got to get a better version! If I were not so familiar with the KJV translation of that verse, I might never have known this myself.

I pointed out the fact that the verse itself uses the noun "wife" and says the he "causes her to commit adultery", but she latched onto the phrase "marital unfaithfulness". She was equating cheating with unfaithfulness. I pointed out that according to the Biblical definition of "unfaithfulness" it is when the husband divorces his wife, and I read to her, the passage in Malachi 2. She resorted to the "everyone knows this" argument. She said that I am "messed up". I told her that most people are uninformed, but that did not go anywhere with her. I finally explained to her that the majority is often wrong, and that we choose to allow majority rule, only because of the fact that it is the most peaceful way to make decisions, but that doesn't make it right. I then gave her some examples of where the majority has gotten things wrong. I also pointed out that the word in the original Greek, is porneia, and she didn't need me to explain what "porneia" means, but she employed some sort of circular reasoning, to argue that this means that unfaithfulness means "cheating". I explained to her that I don't subscribe to the "infallibility of any transliteration", but only the infallibility of the original text, and that I subscribe to the "fidelity of the transliterations", but she was not curious enough to want to know the difference between infallibility and fidelity.

I would say, all in all, it was a fruitful conversation, and it didn't raise any tempers, and she didn't have the same spiteful reactions she has had in the past, when either she or I brought up the topic of polygamy. I find it interesting that she was able to attend class and hear my position on the different requirements for men and women, when it comes to divorce and remarriage, but I am not sure if any of that registered with her, when it came to this discussion of whether "porneia" is an exception that works both ways, as if a wife needs this exceptions to divorce her husband. Also, I have explained in the past to her, that a wife is not allowed to remarry, and that no such restriction is ever placed on a husband Matt 19:9, notwithstanding, so that explanation is something that we have already dealt with.
 
@Daniel DeLuca I love your heart and how you geek out on scripture, Greek and Chaldean. And if you permit me to make a quick observation:

Academically you’re killing it. Total home run. And the way you’re describing your wife it seems she’s less academically inclined. Suggest you connect with her more emotionally, in-the-moment. She likely trusts your academic point of view but is is likely interested in your heart and feelings, which likely are more difficult for you to express. And that’s ok.

Just an observation and I defer to what Jesus is telling you and what people you respect and have known you for years are advising you. I’m just a guy :-)
 
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Ah porniea, someone should write a book on just that word because a clear understanding of that would clear up so much foolishness.

The fools word ignore it. Or they'd write it and we'd be no better off.
 
@Daniel DeLuca I love your heart and how you geek out on scripture, Greek and Chaldean. And if you permit me to make a quick observation:

Academically you’re killing it. Total home run. And the way you’re describing your wife it seems she’s less academically inclined. Suggest you connect with her more emotionally, in-the-moment. She likely trusts your academic point of view but is is likely interested in your heart and feelings, which likely are more difficult for you to express. And that’s ok.

Just an observation and I defer to what Jesus is telling you and what people you respect and have known you for years are advising you. I’m just a guy :)
Thanks. The wife and I are doing good, except when I bring up anything related to this subject. The other day, my son's friend was in the car, and he was talking about why one of his friends broke up with her boyfriend. I remarked that she didn't want to share [her boyfriend], and my wife didn't say anything, but if looks could kill, hers would have! It's great! I love it! When the topic first came out, she was cold, and when it came up a second time, she wouldn't talk to me for a week. Now, she might get upset for a few minutes, but it doesn't last too long.

The funny thing is, she took Greek and Hebrew when she was earning her BA degree in Theology.
 
I fully agree.


And a bad hermeneutic.


I'm not sure I understand your question(?) The preposition is accusative so, with the personal pronoun, is indicating what comes upon another woman in a scenario such as Jesus is explaining to the disciples. You might find it helpful to check out Thayer's explanation regarding the use of this preposition and its implications.
OK, So I went back and looked at ἄλλην, and it is used 8 other times in the NT. One of those is the Mark 10 parallel. The other times it is used, are for the other cheek, another parable, and another voice. I don't really see that word as gender specific. I think the addition of the word woman, which is not found in all translations, is an attempt to clarify, what the translators believed Jesus meant, but for some reason left out. I believe I know why He left it out, and that He did not intend to talk about the husband getting another wife, but rather, he was talking about the husband causing his wife to get remarried, which is clearly spelled out as adultery. My question had to do with the fact that Jesus used ἄλλον in Mark 10:12. I don't think I could reconcile that with the explanation you gave.
 
When bringing up the subject of PM, what's the first verse you would use?

I wonder how far you'd get with Romans 14:4.
 
I don't see how that makes sense, given its usage throughout the New Testament.
 
I met with the Bible Study leader over lunch today. The conversation went exceptionally well! We talked about marriage roles, the difference between the commands for men and for women given in Divorce and Remarriage, and of course Polygamy. His personal belief if that polygamy is a bad idea. I laid out all the refutations I have been using in my online postings out on YouTube. We discussed Mark 10:11-12. He was not aware that this was a parallel to Matt 19:1-9. He did not think that women had the ability to divorce their husbands, but v 12 clearly shows that they do. I shared with him the Greek, and contrasted how v 11 says "against her", whereas v 12 does not say "against him", and I explained that the Greek used there, is a word that is usually translated "upon". I reiterated what Jesus said in Matt 5:32, and related how the husband is causing his wife to commit adultery, and explained that in the eyes of God, she is still the man's wife. We discussed I Cor 7:10-11 and I also brought up some of the objections that people try to use against polygamy. We discussed what was meant when Paul said, "one woman man", and how we decide who can be a deacon, and the fact that some churches ordain unmarried men as deacons, and I mentioned the "rules his household well", clause. All in all, it was an excellent conversation that lasted about 2 hours, and one posting, will not do it justice. Look for more in the future.

My hope is that once he comes around, he can get me an audience with other Bible Study/Grow group leaders. I may not be able to reach my pastor directly, and doing so, is probably a futile effort anyway, but reaching the Bible Study leaders, one at a time, appears to be a worthwhile endeavor.
 
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I met with the Bible Study leader over lunch today. The conversation went exceptionally well! We talked about marriage roles, the difference between the commands for men and for women given in Divorce and Remarriage, and of course Polygamy. His personal belief if that polygamy is a bad idea. I laid out all the refutations I have been using in my online postings out on YouTube. We discussed Mark 10:11-12. He was not aware that this was a parallel to Matt 19:1-9. He did not think that women had the ability to divorce their husbands, but v 12 clearly shows that they do. I shared with him the Greek, and contrasted how v 11 says "against her", whereas v 12 does not say "against him", and I explained that the Greek used there, is a word that is usually translated "upon". I reiterated what Jesus said in Matt 5:32, and related how the husband is causing his wife to commit adultery, and explained that in the eyes of God, she is still the man's wife. We discussed I Cor 7:10-11 and I also brought up some of the objections that people try to use against polygamy. We discussed what was meant when Paul said, "one woman man", and how we decide who can be a deacon, and the fact that some churches ordain unmarried men as deacons, and I mentioned the "rules his household well", clause. All in all, it was an excellent conversation that lasted about 2 hours, and one posting, will not do it justice. Look for more in the future.

My hope is that once he comes around, he can get me an audience with other Bible Study/Grow group leaders. I may not be able to reach my pastor directly, and doing so, is probably a futile effort anyway, but reaching the Bible Study leaders, one at a time, appears to be a worthwhile endeavor.
Wow, that's awesome! Praise God!

Now if only my own conversations could go so well :/

I will say that I have been surprised both by who DOES support it and who doesnt. My friend, normally a feminist, is, oddly, supportive, even if he dislikes it. Conversely my conservative mother hates it. Go figure.
 
And actually, I would find it really handy if we could have a series of threads addressing arguments people have raised against it, and of course the answers. I know there are some on the main page and some older threads, but there don't seem to be many recent ones.
 
And actually, I would find it really handy if we could have a series of threads addressing arguments people have raised against it, and of course the answers. I know there are some on the main page and some older threads, but there don't seem to be many recent ones.

Are you thinking a FAQ or something more indepth?
 
Wow, that's awesome! Praise God!

Now if only my own conversations could go so well :/

I will say that I have been surprised both by who DOES support it and who doesnt. My friend, normally a feminist, is, oddly, supportive, even if he dislikes it. Conversely my conservative mother hates it. Go figure.


I’ll make a guess that one is married and one isn’t.
 
I'm not aware of an argument which can refute the below (which isn't a good way to talk with friends, because it’s argumentative, but here it is):

1. Genesis 38 - Levirate marriage (which would require almost always require polygamy) is required BEFORE the law.

2. Deuteronomy 25 - Levirate marriage is required IN the law.

3. Matthew 22 - Levirate marriage is discussed AFTER the law and Jesus doesn't modify it (like he did with divorce in other passages).

Here's all 3 passages: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+38:8,Deuteronomy+25:5-6,Matthew+22:23-33

In other words, this makes it unreasonable to say "Plural families were only for Old Testament." Why? Because these verses, which cover a huge chronological span, show plural families are constantly TOTALLY FINE - before the law, in the law, and after the law.
Hadn't noticed this response before, but I like it.

I just wonder if the monogamy only folks will interpret it as monogamy....seven times repeated. Eisegesis will lead them to assuming each if the brothers in Matthew were bachelors waiting their turn to be married to the same gal. It's convoluted, but so is monogamy only.
 
It’s funny how 1+1= One flesh but 1+1+1 cannot = one and yet Scripture (John 17) is a great example of how Christ and his father and all flesh that his father has given him are one.
And if you're trinitarian (most evangelicals)...you will insist the 1+1+1=1. Or 1x1x1=1.
 
Well, this week was non-eventful as we moved on to Matt 20. After four weeks in a row, the respite was nice. It was however somewhat eventful in the DeLuca household on Saturday morning/afternoon. My wife had a bad dream. In her dream, I told her that I had paid some woman for sex, because she was not giving me enough sex. I told her that I would never do that, but she told me that in her dream, she was very angry with me. I asked why she should be so angry. Instead of answering, she asked me why shouldn't she be angry. We had an opportunity to discuss Matt 5:32, because she said that this verse, although she couldn't point to the reference, gives her permission to divorce. I pointed out what that verse actually says. The NIV, both the newer and original, are very poor translations of that verse though, which of course did not serve me well. The word "pormeia" has been translated "marital unfaithfulness", in the original NIV, and the newer one botches the phrase"causes her to commit", replacing that with "makes her the victim", which is nowhere to be found in the original Greek. Ugh! I have got to get a better version! If I were not so familiar with the KJV translation of that verse, I might never have known this myself.

I pointed out the fact that the verse itself uses the noun "wife" and says the he "causes her to commit adultery", but she latched onto the phrase "marital unfaithfulness". She was equating cheating with unfaithfulness. I pointed out that according to the Biblical definition of "unfaithfulness" it is when the husband divorces his wife, and I read to her, the passage in Malachi 2. She resorted to the "everyone knows this" argument. She said that I am "messed up". I told her that most people are uninformed, but that did not go anywhere with her. I finally explained to her that the majority is often wrong, and that we choose to allow majority rule, only because of the fact that it is the most peaceful way to make decisions, but that doesn't make it right. I then gave her some examples of where the majority has gotten things wrong. I also pointed out that the word in the original Greek, is porneia, and she didn't need me to explain what "porneia" means, but she employed some sort of circular reasoning, to argue that this means that unfaithfulness means "cheating". I explained to her that I don't subscribe to the "infallibility of any transliteration", but only the infallibility of the original text, and that I subscribe to the "fidelity of the transliterations", but she was not curious enough to want to know the difference between infallibility and fidelity.

I would say, all in all, it was a fruitful conversation, and it didn't raise any tempers, and she didn't have the same spiteful reactions she has had in the past, when either she or I brought up the topic of polygamy. I find it interesting that she was able to attend class and hear my position on the different requirements for men and women, when it comes to divorce and remarriage, but I am not sure if any of that registered with her, when it came to this discussion of whether "porneia" is an exception that works both ways, as if a wife needs this exceptions to divorce her husband. Also, I have explained in the past to her, that a wife is not allowed to remarry, and that no such restriction is ever placed on a husband Matt 19:9, notwithstanding, so that explanation is something that we have already dealt with.
This example here is why most serious English speaking Bible folks think NIV is junk...just saying:rolleyes:
 
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