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Why is Divorce so easy in the Bible?

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IshChayil said:
Zec and I are both torah keepers (or at least we try to be) that's why I wrote that part in there as I thought it might be important to him to know what was added.

In other words, I'm not gonna take the bait this time :)
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Count me in as one of those awful people. :rolleyes:
 
I'll take the bait then.

Disclaimer Im not telling anyone they have to follow Torah. I'm not attacking individuals beleifs. This is directed at a the logic of some statements made.

Just for clearification.

Laws can not be fullfilled. Case in point, just because someone never broke their nation's laws doesn't make their laws void and null. If scripture prophecies that they will never break their nation's laws and because of that x, y, and z will come to be thats fulfillment of prophecy not fullfillment of law.

As for all cerimonial and civil laws being done away with there are threads here discussing sacrifices in the millennial kingdom and such topics read, enjoy, question everthing and in the end rest not on your own understanding but the guidance of His Spirit.

Romans 8:1-4

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Messiah Yeshua.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Messiah Yeshua has set you free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what was impossible for the Torah—since it was weakened on account of the flesh—G-d has done. Sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as a sin offering, He condemned sin in the flesh—

4 so that the requirement of the Torah might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Ruach.

Torah are the first 5 books and there are prophecies in them that are required of the Messiah to fullfill. The prophecies in the feast days for starters. The fullfillment is in us not the the mitzvots of Torah. For now they are in our hearts and like frontlets before the eyes. We are changed through His blood to thirst for His glory and Hunger for His ways.

Personal beleif: We are justified by faith alone but faith without deeds is dead. Grace and Torah. Torah is not an a cut purses blade to be used to seperate a person from their walk with G-d but a light illuminating the path as we walk to prevent us from stumbling.

We can talk about living in a pleasing manner to G-d but if dont walk in a pleasing manner to G-d nothing we say matters.

We get the privilege of being judged by Yeshua by professing him as our Savior (Romans 10:8-10) but we will be judged by our walk with the Lord (Romans 2:6-8).

Where ever your walk with G-d takes yall I pray we all end up at the same destination.
 
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Ι just wanted to say @Kevin , I like this line a lot, "Laws can not be fulfilled."
I'm gonna co-opt that (I'll give you credit though) :)
 
Not arguing just curious how’s you explain Matthew 5:17-18
 
Pacman said:
Not arguing just curious how’s you explain Matthew 5:17-18
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Where it says law.

from a primary nemo (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), genitive case (regulation), specially, (of Moses (including the volume); also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle):--law.

3551 nómos – law. 3551 (nómos) is used of: a) the Law (Scripture), with emphasis on the first five books of Scripture; or b) any system of religious thinking (theology), especially when nomosoccurs without the Greek definite article.

usage, custom, law; in NT: of law in general, plur: of divine laws; of a force or influence impelling to action; of the Mosaic law; meton: of the books which contain the law, the Pentateuch, (Torah) the Old Testament scriptures in general.

Modern English translates the greek nomos as law but it also means principles or instructions which is what Torah means. The only scripture at the time was the Tanahk and by saying the laws or instructions it was clear that Torah was what was being referenced. When it comes to the lessons of the prophet's not everything is prophecy and you can't full fill a lesson. In context by saying law and prophets Yeshua is speaking of the prophecies contained in them that tell us who He is and what He will do and what will happen because of His fulfillment of them.
 
So when you say that a law cannot be fulfilled you are using a different definition of law than what is used in The Book of Matthew?
 
In my view at least portions of if not the entirety of the ceremonial law was required because Christ had not come yet. In my view that is what is being talked about when it says fulfill the law.
 
Pacman said:
So when you say that a law cannot be fulfilled you are using a different definition of law than what is used in The Book of Matthew?
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Not a diffrent definition of law than what is used in The Book of Matthew. A different defintion than the Latin Vulgate meaning that became the standard bearer for the Catholic Church and was adopted by the Reformers. I went back to the original Greek like many students of the bible have and then Hebrew equivalent. It was Jewish audience He was speaking to. This was before Paul went out to the greeks, so if your going just by the Greek as if it was a Greek audience the prophet's the Greeks knew where prophets of pagan gods and I doubt Yeshua was saying that He was not there to abolish their laws and prophets.

How do you fullfill prophets?

Strongs Number: G4396

Orig: from a compound of 4253 and 5346; a foreteller ("prophet"); by analogy, an inspired speaker; by extension, a poet:--prophet.

You can't but you can fullfill prophecy given by the Prophets.

Matthew 5:17

Kjv
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Tlv
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Torah or the Prophets! I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.

Ojb
17 Do not think that I came to abolish the Torah or the Neviim. I did not come to abolish but to complete.

cnystrom said:
Can the requirements of the law be fulfilled?
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That's called obeying law and once again just because you obey a law doesn't mean it's done away with. If it does Yeshua obeyed all the laws so they're all gone including the big 10. That would be abolishing them by the way unless your saying all things are accomplished, that's a completely different subject. Now if He was fullfilling prophecy in Torah (first five books) and Neviim (books of the prophets) and prophecy says by fulfilling them means x,y, and z will come to be.
 
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Veil was torn which symbolizes direct access, final sacrifice on the cross was made. Just two examples of the ceremonial law being fulfilled. I think we are more alike than we are different. And perhaps it's just semantics... I just disagree with the statement that "law cannot be fulfilled"
 
I am definitely in a minority among my Torah keeping brethren but I actually see a two track system here.
The Council of Jerusalem seemed to establish a standard for Hellenized believers to not enter into the Law. They were there to observe a few basic rules and that was pretty much it. Paul seems to endorse this as well in a number of places but especially when he talks about circumcision and uncircumcision both availing nothing. It certainly seems to be this Torah/Gentile split that is being referred to in Romans 1.
I personally don't see a way to resolve all
Of this without having a two track system. For instance, in Exodus the Passover is set up as a covenant for all time, it's still a thing, but the foreign peoples who wanted to observe it had to be circumcised, otherwise they were to be kept from it.
We see then that from the very beginning of the organized faith there was an allowance for non-Israelites to be connected to the faith but not completely subject to the Law. Likewise it was possible from the beginning for non-Israelites to come under the Law.
Now obviously I think observing the Law is a good thing. It has brought many blessings to our life. But I can't in all honesty tell an non-Israelite he has to. I am not sure if Israelites can opt out now or not. My gut instinct is to caution against it but I can't back that up with scripture.
 
Matthew 28:18-20

18 And Yeshua came up to them and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, immersing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Ruach ha-Kodesh,

20 teaching them to observe all I have commanded you. And remember! I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Hebrews 5:1-10

5 For every kohen gadol taken from among men is appointed to act on behalf of people in matters relating to G-d, so that he may offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.

2 He is able to empathize with the ignorant and deluded, since he himself also is subject to weakness.

3 For this reason he has to make offerings for sins—just as for the people, so also for himself.

4 And no one takes this honor for himself, but only when he is called by G-d, as Aaron was.

5 So also Messiah did not glorify Himself to be made Kohen Gadol; rather, it was G-d who said to Him,

“You are My Son;
today I have become Your Father.”
6 And He says in a different passage,
“You are a kohen forever,
according to the order of Melchizedek.”

7 In the days of His life on earth, Yeshua offered up both prayers and pleas, with loud crying and tears, to the One able to save Him from death; and He was heard because of His reverence.

8 Though He was a Son, He learned obedience from what He suffered.

9 And once made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him—

10 called by G-d Kohen Gadol “according to the order of Melchizedek.”

Since all authority was given to Yeshua the High Preist of the Melchizedek order. I'd say it's safe to say that any mitzvots that are Levite dependent are no longer in effect.

ZecAustin said:
I am definitely in a minority among my Torah keeping brethren but I actually see a two track system here.
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Actually there is a Jewish tradition that agrees with you. I know I've mentioned it before but I forgot where so I can't link it back there.

The seven Noahide Laws are derived according to Jewish tradition and interpretation of Genesis 2:16 given to Adam, and Genesis 9:4-6 given to Noah.

The seven Noahide Laws are listed in different orders, but basically, they are as follows:
  1. Idolatry is forbidden
  2. Blasphemy is forbidden
  3. Murder is forbidden
  4. Theft is forbidden
  5. Sexual Immorality is forbidden
  6. Eating flesh of living animals is forbidden
  7. Justice laws
These seven laws are further subdivided. Following is a partial listing of those laws as derived from the seven Noahide Laws.
  1. Idolatry
    1. Must worship G-d alone
    2. No idols or statues
    3. Do not bow before any statues or idols
    4. Do not offer sacrifices before any statues or idols
  2. Blasphemy
    1. Do not curse G-d
    2. Worship and pray to the true G-d alone
    3. Do not use G-d's name in vain
  3. Murder
    1. Against murdering anyone
    2. Self-defense is permitted
  4. Theft
    1. Do not steal
    2. Do not rob
    3. Do not overcharge
    4. Do not kidnap
    5. Do not move a landmark
    6. Do not use false weights and measurements
    7. Do not covet
  5. Sexual Immorality
    1. No incest
    2. No bestiality
    3. No homosexuality
    4. No Adultery
  6. Eating flesh of living animals
    1. Prevention of animal cruelty
    2. Do not eat an animal while it is alive
    3. Do not eat the flesh of an animal torn by a wild animal
    4. Do not eat the blood of animals
  7. Justice Laws
    1. Against bribery
    2. Against favoritism
    3. Against condemning the innocent
    4. Administer the death penalty
    5. Treat people equally before the law
We now return you to your previous scheduled program. Sorry about the thread jacking.
 
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Kevin said:
That's called obeying law and once again just because you obey a law doesn't mean it's done away with. If it does Yeshua obeyed all the laws so they're all gone including the big 10. That would be abolishing them by the way unless your saying all things are accomplished, that's a completely different subject. Now if He was fullfilling prophecy in Torah (first five books) and Neviim (books of the prophets) and prophecy says by fulfilling them means x,y, and z will come to be.
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1. There is a law.
2. Someone breaks it.
3. There is a required punishment.
4. Someone pays or serves that punishment.
5. Justice is served and the requirements of the law are fulfilled and the case is closed.

Are we on the same page, or are you saying something different?
 
ZecAustin said:
I am definitely in a minority among my Torah keeping brethren but I actually see a two track system here.
The Council of Jerusalem seemed to establish a standard for Hellenized believers to not enter into the Law. They were there to observe a few basic rules and that was pretty much it. Paul seems to endorse this as well in a number of places but especially when he talks about circumcision and uncircumcision both availing nothing. It certainly seems to be this Torah/Gentile split that is being referred to in Romans 1.
I personally don't see a way to resolve all
Of this without having a two track system. For instance, in Exodus the Passover is set up as a covenant for all time, it's still a thing, but the foreign peoples who wanted to observe it had to be circumcised, otherwise they were to be kept from it.
We see then that from the very beginning of the organized faith there was an allowance for non-Israelites to be connected to the faith but not completely subject to the Law. Likewise it was possible from the beginning for non-Israelites to come under the Law.
Now obviously I think observing the Law is a good thing. It has brought many blessings to our life. But I can't in all honesty tell an non-Israelite he has to. I am not sure if Israelites can opt out now or not. My gut instinct is to caution against it but I can't back that up with scripture.
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Can you define what a non-Israelite is?
 
cnystrom said:
1. There is a law.
2. Someone breaks it.
3. There is a required punishment.
4. Someone pays or serves that punishment.
5. Justice is served and the requirements of the law are fulfilled and the case is closed.

Are we on the same page, or are you saying something different?
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No, not the same page.
The case is only closed concerning that particular offfense.
The law itself has not been fulfilled.

You can obey a law, or you can break it. But no one can fulfill it.

If all of the health problems associated with swine, shellfish, and other bottom feeders had disappeared when Yeshua arose from the grave, then there would be a point that could be made about the Law no longer being needed and thus fulfilled.
 
cnystrom said:
1. There is a law.
2. Someone breaks it.
3. There is a required punishment.
4. Someone pays or serves that punishment.
5. Justice is served and the requirements of the law are fulfilled and the case is closed.

Are we on the same page, or are you saying something different?
Click to expand...

Maybe I'm just stressing the importance of prophecy here.

Ezekiel 14:12-14

12 The word of Adonai came to me saying,

13 “Son of man, suppose a land sins against Me by trespassing grievously and I stretch out My hand over it, break off its staff of bread, send famine upon it and cut it off from man and beast.

14 Even if these three men—Noah, Daniel and Job—be in it, they would only deliver their own souls by their righteousness.” It is a declaration of Adonai.

Daniels prayer where he confesses to sin was a prayer for the sins of Isreal which he is a part of. It was all about Israel. Noah got drunk and was naked in his tent. A sin in the modern church and for some reason to the Catholic Church but scripture doesn't say either is. He didn't put alcohol before G-d so it's not idolatry. Jobs accusation of G-d was not a sin either. If he had refused to listen to G-ds response and uses his accausation to judge G-d he would have sinned but he withdrew the accusation.

If being obedient to Torah and fullfilng the requirements of its teachings meant those teachings know as the law where null and void. Here's 3 men before Yeshua who voided the Torah.

Those requirements in the first 5 books and the books of the prophet's that have to be full filled are the are the messianic prophecies that show us who Yeshua was, what is the results of his coming, and what will happen in days to come.
 
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cnystrom said:
1. There is a law.
2. Someone breaks it.
3. There is a required punishment.
4. Someone pays or serves that punishment.
5. Justice is served and the requirements of the law are fulfilled and the case is closed.

Are we on the same page, or are you saying something different?
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OK, I'm in :P (my response isn't just to you brother just I hit reply to yours and now here comes thought dump)

Just to be clear, I think most torah-keepers I've met here on B.F. have the perspective that obeying G-d's laws isn't gaining us any kind of righteousness.
Anyone feel free to chime in if you disagree.
The righteousness is the free gift, etc. etc.
We try to keep His laws out of love for Him and a desire to express obedience "that sin may not abound" through the grace he has had for us.
When Paul writes that if not for the Law He would not have known what is sin; he's not talking about obvious aspects of the moral code. Much of the moral code can and has been deduced by other cultures.
We don't need the Law to tell us not to murder or steal, etc. those are obviously sin. We may need it to tell us not to charge interest on loans to other believers, and to give such loans when a brother/sister is in need.

I see nothing wrong with the steps you've outlined, I would just want to push @steve 's point that this is an ongoing process.
So I would add point #6: Go to #2 and avoid repeating the same sins as it makes the Messiah's blood seem cheap.
 
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