poly = selfish, unloving towards your wife

[rockfox]

It seems we've gotten off topic a bit here. Ultimately the question was how is it so often claimed to "being selfish by marring more than one"? I don't see anything that says a husband is wrong in marrying more than one out of physical desire, or that he shouldn't do so if he is in desire of her.

It's only selfish unloving because the woman thinks the marriage should revolve around her. It doesn't. Or at least shouldn't. That's the root problem, not the desire for another wife. Not much more to be said on that besides all I said before.

I think we have gotten off as well in the primary focus of having more than one wife, where does scripture require being able to lead more than one before taking another? This is adding something in that isn't biblical, a wife is her husbands, his helpmeet.

It's just common sense. If you've got 1 horse hitched to a wagon and can't control it, don't hitch another up. If you haven't built the skills to be able to handle two at once, adding another is just asking for someone getting hurt. Which would probably count as unloving. Granted there are some things which can only be learned on the job.

 

[steve]

It's just common sense. If you've got 1 horse hitched to a wagon and can't control it, don't hitch another up. If you haven't built the skills to be able to handle two at once, adding another is just asking for someone getting hurt. Which would probably count as unloving. Granted there are some things which can only be learned on the job.

Probably, but there is the possibility of adding a more down-to-earth, possibly older woman to the team that would be a stabilizing force.
This is nothing to experiment with, though! Only do it if YHWH is truly leading in this direction.
I’m just saying don’t overlook possibilities outside of the box.

 

[DeathIsNotTheEnd]

Not to mention is is going to be extremely rare these days to have a wife (first or otherwise) who is just 100% happy with and excited for poly. Aint gonna happen. Even if she thinks that ahead of time, she will still have moments of jealousy and pain. There will be arguments. Guess that means poly is too hard and we shouldnt do it? Yah, mono is safer, we better just teach that.

....

 

[rustywest4]

Probably, but there is the possibility of adding a more down-to-earth, possibly older woman to the team that would be a stabilizing force.
This is nothing to experiment with, though! Only do it if YHWH is truly leading in this direction.
I’m just saying don’t overlook possibilities outside of the box.

Wisdom!

 

[Sean Miller]

It's just common sense. If you've got 1 horse hitched to a wagon and can't control it, don't hitch another up. If you haven't built the skills to be able to handle two at once, adding another is just asking for someone getting hurt. Which would probably count as unloving. Granted there are some things which can only be learned on the job.

....[/QUOTE]

Not to mention is is going to be extremely rare these days to have a wife (first or otherwise) who is just 100% happy with and excited for poly. Aint gonna happen. Even if she thinks that ahead of time, she will still have moments of jealousy and pain. There will be arguments. Guess that means poly is too hard and we shouldnt do it? Yah, mono is safer, we better just teach that.
....

So let me get this straight, if someone is hurt that means I am being unloving? Well most women feel hurt often without even saying or doing something wrong that doesn't mean you can't lead and deffintly doesn't mean your being unloving. We can blame God because we don't like how he runs things or how some "horses " are out of control, that doesn't make us right or even valid for being angry towards God. Most deffintly it doesn't give us the right to be unloving towards God, as my wives often act or feel towards me in choices they don't agree with or like.

A comment i hear and honestly, don't have a good response to is what jesus comands treat others as you want to be treated. I know there is nothing unloving about loving or marrying another wife, i don't agee it is selfish either, but i wouldn't be okay with my wife taking more than one husband, not to mention its adultry, but if im not okay with that then shouldn't i treat her the same way I'd want? She might feel unloved and hurt, then am I breaking His command to love? food for thought. Ultimately, I'd like to have a good response for every challenge brought at me.

There is nothing perfect about any relationship, problems arise in mono and poly, I've lived both, neither is particularly easy, but I deffintly prefer poly now.

 

[Slumberfreeze]

She might feel unloved and hurt, then am I breaking His command to love? food for thought. Ultimately, I'd like to have a good response for every challenge thrown at me.

As a personal conviction I see nothing wrong with this. My response would be equally food for thought for the person making this comment:

-It is true that Jesus commands us to treat others how we would want to be treated. In addition, Jesus commands us to love each other as He has loved us (John 15:12) And how does He love us? We see that He loves us and pours Himself out for His disciples, even when they irritate Him, He never sends them away, He always teaches for them, always loves them, always provides for them. He serves them even in ways that they don't want to be served.

BUT

Jesus doesn't let His disciple's emotions dictate His actions when it comes to whom He may or not get close to.

13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
15 And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.

Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of Simon the Leper, 7 a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table. 8 When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. “Why this waste?” they asked. 9 “This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor.”10 Aware of this, Jesus said to them, “Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me.

49 “Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”50 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”

13 Then Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all of Israel. 15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of mine...

Jesus brings in whom He will, any that hear the sound of His voice, whether or not the ones who have already responded have an opinion about it. I am 100% sure that Simon the Zealot would not ordinarily be a travelling companion with Matthew the tax collector (unless he was planning to murder him for being a traitor to Israel).

 

[DeathIsNotTheEnd]

...

So let me get this straight, if someone is hurt that means I am being unloving? Well most women feel hurt often without even saying or doing something wrong that doesn't mean you can't lead and deffintly doesn't mean your being unloving. We can blame God because we don't like how he runs things or how some "horses " are out of control, that doesn't make us right or even valid for being angry towards God. Most deffintly it doesn't give us the right to be unloving towards God, as my wives often act or feel towards me in choices they don't agree with or like.

A comment i hear and honestly, don't have a good response to is what jesus comands treat others as you want to be treated. I know there is nothing unloving about loving or marrying another wife, i don't agee it is selfish either, but i wouldn't be okay with my wife taking more than one husband, not to mention its adultry, but if im not okay with that then shouldn't i treat her the same way I'd want? She might feel unloved and hurt, then am I breaking His command to love? food for thought. Ultimately, I'd like to have a good response for every challenge thrown at me.

Sean, bro, I agree with you 100%. Sorry, my comment was sarcasm! I do not believe my last 2 sentences.

Jesus commands us to treat others as we wish to be treated. As in, loving, respectful, patient, etc...
If I am the king does that mean I should treat all of my subjects as kings also because that is how I want to be treated? of course not.
What is loving treatment is dependent on what God SAYS is loving treatment, and what the other person needs. Wants and happiness are certainly something we aim for when we love a person, but they cant drive our decisions. Should a woman who's husband is 'happy' murdering people encourage him in that? A woman may be 'happy' to have her husband selfishly to herself, but it is actively UNloving to another woman. So no, that desire should not drive our decisions except in informing our patience and compassion.

 

[Sean Miller]

Sean, bro, I agree with you 100%. Sorry, my comment was sarcasm! I do not believe my last 2 sentences.

Jesus commands us to treat others as we wish to be treated. As in, loving, respectful, patient, etc...
If I am the king does that mean I should treat all of my subjects as kings also because that is how I want to be treated? of course not.
What is loving treatment is dependent on what God SAYS is loving treatment, and what the other person needs. Wants and happiness are certainly something we aim for when we love a person, but they cant drive our decisions. Should a woman who's husband is 'happy' murdering people encourage him in that? A woman may be 'happy' to have her husband selfishly to herself, but it is actively UNloving to another woman. So no, that desire should not drive our decisions except in informing our patience and compassion.

Well said. But how do we know what exactly Jesus considered loving? Laying ones life down for another, he says this is love. Then we should give up what we as men or husbands want, sacrifice our selves for her, lay our lives down for her as he did for us, right? He gave up marriage and children and so forth for us, however that does get tricky as he and God are one, so really he does have (jesus) a lot of children.

 

[Sean Miller]

It's only selfish unloving because the woman thinks the marriage should revolve around her. It doesn't. Or at least shouldn't. That's the root problem, not the desire for another wife. Not much more to be said on that besides all I said before.

So then wouldn't we as husbands be making the marriage centered around us? Wouldn't both be wrong?

I'm not trying to challenge anyone here I'm just trying to sort out how being in Poly is right and then once in it how to live it out when your wives feelings flair up regarding such parameters.

 

[steve]

The marriage should be centered around YHWH.
Under the leadership of the husband.

 

[rockfox]

Probably, but there is the possibility of adding a more down-to-earth, possibly older woman to the team that would be a stabilizing force.

As a matter of personality mixes, yes. But if things aren't well in hand and you're counting on that to fix a problem; you're just asking for trouble.

Not to mention is is going to be extremely rare these days to have a wife (first or otherwise) who is just 100% happy with and excited for poly. Aint gonna happen. Even if she thinks that ahead of time, she will still have moments of jealousy and pain. There will be arguments.

Of course, but that's not really what I'm talking about.

So let me get this straight, if someone is hurt that means I am being unloving? Well most women feel hurt often without even saying or doing something wrong that doesn't mean you can't lead and deffintly doesn't mean your being unloving.

Mixed metephors. When I said hurt I had in mind the picture of a wrecked cart as a metaphor for wrecking both marriages by taking on another wife when you haven't the skills to adequately handle even one. I do not at all make a woman's feelbads the measure of a man's behavior. That's an impossible standard.

 

[rockfox]

So then wouldn't we as husbands be making the marriage centered around us? Wouldn't both be wrong?

God created women to be a helper for you. That is their created purpose. The marriage is inherently centered around the husband. You can fairly call that selfish. But while that word has negative connotations in English the concept has no negative connotation in scripture. It's not wrong, that's how God created it to be. And the testimony of biology (creation) is that women likewise tend to be attracted to selfish men and repulsed by men who pander to them.

But there is balance here...your life should be centered around Christ. She selflessly follows you, you selflessly follow Christ.

 

[rockfox]

A comment i hear and honestly, don't have a good response to is what jesus comands treat others as you want to be treated. I know there is nothing unloving about loving or marrying another wife, i don't agee it is selfish either, but i wouldn't be okay with my wife taking more than one husband, not to mention its adultry, but if im not okay with that then shouldn't i treat her the same way I'd want? She might feel unloved and hurt, then am I breaking His command to love? food for thought. Ultimately, I'd like to have a good response for every challenge brought at me.

The Bible does not teach across the board equality like our modern culture. God created different standards for men and women because they are different and created for different purposes. It is not hypocrisy for you to support multiple wives but not multiple husbands. That is how God created it to be, that is your inborn instinct talking. Nor is it unloving. Frankly, unloving is treating men and women exactly the same; because that is out of step with their creation and leads to all sorts of problems.

Her feelings are not the arbiter of whether or not you are loving her. There may be times when loving requires you to do something that upsets or hurts her. I realize that the church teaches the opposite of this, even teaching you are sinning if you hurt her feelings. But that is unBiblical modern feminist garbage.

It is understanding though how this came about, being as hurt feelings often arise from unloving actions. But said feelings are not the determiner of what is loving or not. To do that is to make the emotional whims of woman the judge of your actions; is to make her the head in the marriage.

 

[Sean Miller]

I read this verse yesterday and it provoked some anger regarding poly so I thought I'd mention it, "I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.” Matthew 19:9 NIV

I explained this verse is referring to a man if he divorced his wife as we are called not to break wed lock. My wife is taking this verse to imply poly is wrong as Jesus says "and marries another woman". She doesn't understand why jesus would say that. I am not sure how else to explain what I think is obvious in this verse. Am I miss reading this because I want poly? I hope not but I'm willing for God to change my understanding.

My response: Jesus isn't talking about Poly, he is talking about divorce and remarriage. I don't read in this that he is saying it's wrong to marry another wife, unless you divorced the 1st one. Jesus is strictly saying don't leave your wife for another woman, divorcing her, unless she committed adultery.

What else could I possibly add to explain this? She was not satisfied with my explanation, she implies the verse means we can not marry more than one wife without sinning.

 

[DeathIsNotTheEnd]

It doesnt say what she says it says either way, because it is dependent on the divorce. It is only adultery if he divorces his first wife. Simple as that. Now you could argue maybe about why, or what counts as divorce and stuff, but either way this ONE verse is the ONLY one where that caveat is made and it is explicitly dependent on divorce having been committed first.

Since the pattern of the WHOLE rest of the Bible is that poly is acceptable, this one has to be read to fit into that pattern.

Not to mention if she really thinks that then she is calling every one of the Patriarchs an adulterer.

EDIT: And I just realized, if you apply that verse literally that way, then is God an adulterer?
He sent Israel out for committing adultery while He married Judah.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

I read this verse yesterday and it provoked some anger regarding poly so I thought I'd mention it, "I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.” Matthew 19:9 NIV

I explained this verse is referring to a man if he divorced his wife as we are called not to break wed lock. My wife is taking this verse to imply poly is wrong as Jesus says "and marries another woman". She doesn't understand why jesus would say that. I am not sure how else to explain what I think is obvious in this verse. Am I miss reading this because I want poly? I hope not but I'm willing for God to change my understanding.

My response: Jesus isn't talking about Poly, he is talking about divorce and remarriage. I don't read in this that he is saying it's wrong to marry another wife, unless you divorced the 1st one. Jesus is strictly saying don't leave your wife for another woman, divorcing her, unless she committed adultery.

What else could I possibly add to explain this? She was not satisfied with my explanation, she implies the verse means we can not marry more than one wife without sinning.

The answer to this is best exemplified in Malachi 2:14-16. IF you are divorcing to trade up or get a newer different model, or if you are marrying a woman and putting the first aside (though still married to her) to favor the new wife that is dealing treacherously with the first. This is an abomination.

 

[steve]

I am sure that she is not interested in logic, but that verse shows how bankrupt the logic of the anti-poly church is. They swallow the camels of all of the divorces around them while straining at the gnat of the possibility that poly is adultery.

 

[andrew]

There are a couple of threads here that really thrash that verse, but the key point is already made above. The verse doesn't say that a man who divorces his wife commits adultery, it doesn't say that a man who marries two women commits adultery, it says that a man who divorces his wive AND marries another commits adultery. As was said above, we can argue over how exactly to apply that, but it is incontrovertible that both 'elements of the crime' must be present for this ruling to apply to a particular case.

 

[andrew]

I am sure that she is not interested in logic...

This is a bigger problem, Sean. You can't 'win' by 'convincing' your wife that you are 'right'. That's guy talk. You win by showing her every day that you are submitted to the will of God and that you love God and you love her.

 

[rockfox]

she implies the verse means we can not marry more than one wife without sinning.

If that was the message, divorce wouldn't have been mentioned at all. What this verse condemns is serial monogamy, not polygamy. It's the closest thing the churchians have in the NT to condemn polygamy; but in truth it condemns their very practice of marriage. It helps to remember the context. Hebrews under the Old Testement could take any number of wives as they wished. It was the Greeks who brought the idea of one wife and if you wanted to marry another you had to divorce the first.

This is a bigger problem, Sean. You can't 'win' by 'convincing' your wife that you are 'right'. That's guy talk.

In all likelihood Andrew's right. The spiritual leader teaches the follower how things are, and she listens. If it becomes a debate to convince you risk casting yourself as equal or subordinate to her feelings.

Most people are not convinced by logic, but by emotion. And when her emotional belief is 'poly is wrong' then scripture and logic will be used only towards the end of justifying the emotional belief.