• Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.

Is God the source of evil?

Semantics! The same phrase is used in Hebrews 1:8 for how long the throne of Jesus is gonna last. Does He abdicate when we've all finally been purified by the lake of fire?
Here's my question, then: Is Jesus relegated to being stuck to that throne for the rest of eternity? My point (with 'aion') is to say that introducing foreverness into Scripture is inappropriate, when what was originally stated was that such-and-such was going to last for this age, or for ages -- but not for eternity. God cannot be pinned down to be anything or do anything forever except be omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. And right. About everything.
 
Took me a second to understand what you're saying here. I get it.

What I'm saying is that saying that "people who believe in the doctrine of eternal damnation are actually insecure about God's omnipotence" is a huge straw man. We believe He's capable of anything, but He won't do what He won't do, and He will do what He will do. We may be incorrect about what we perceive Him to have communicated, but it isn't because we doubt His ability.
You say that, but if God says He wants everyone to come to Him, and they don't, then He would fail. To believe that God would fail is to lack sufficient faith in God. That's what I'm saying.
 
Is Jesus relegated to being stuck to that throne for the rest of eternity?

2 Peter 1:11 - His is an everlasting kingdom
1 John 2:25 We have the promise of eternal "aionios" (same word) life.

So I've only really been promised to live roughly the same amount of time Christ will rule. I suppose that's fair. If He gets bored of ruling over me, then I suppose He can get bored of me and dispose of me too.

At the end of the 'aeons that are absolutely not an eternity', Jesus steps down off the throne, the Kingdom is dissolved, everybody gets let out of Hell, and I am mercifully allowed to die so I don't have to see it. I'll accept that, actually.

You say that, but if God says He wants everyone to come to Him, and they don't, then He would fail. To believe that God would fail is to lack sufficient faith in God. That's what I'm saying.

Aight.
 
The Idea that God 'loses' if more people go to eternal punishment is a false argument.
The often over looked point is:

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

There will be flesh and 'seed', the birth of children on the NEW EARTH ! Eventually there will be more in eternal life than ever go to Hell. Hell will become a tiny reminder that sin does not work. The existence of Hell will actually be an act of mercy, because its warning will be visible and prevent multitudes in the future from entering into rebellion. In time the universe will be populated with worshipers. Resurrected saints will rule cities and nations in the coming Kingdom age. When the New Heaven and New Earth are created and, as the population grows, we will rule planets and galaxies. Heaven will not be boring!
 
There will be flesh and 'seed', the birth of children on the NEW EARTH ! Eventually there will be more in eternal life than ever go to Hell. Hell will become a tiny reminder that sin does not work. The existence of Hell will actually be an act of mercy, because its warning will be visible and prevent multitudes in the future from entering into rebellion. In time the universe will be populated with worshipers. Resurrected saints will rule cities and nations in the coming Kingdom age. When the New Heaven and New Earth are created and, as the population grows, we will rule planets and galaxies. Heaven will not be boring!

What happened to "neither marry nor given in marriage"?
 
What happened to "neither marry nor given in marriage"?

That is for the resurrected Saints.

There will be those not in glorified bodies who survive the Tribulation and the battle of Armageddon. They will enter the 1000 year Kingdom but the first resurrection is over at the beginning of the 1000 years. Those will live through the 1000 years if they do not commit a death penalty sin and then, Satan is loosed to test those one more time and those who were born during the 1000 years. fire from Heaven destroys the remaining rebels and then, the White Throne Judgment. However the first resurrection was over 1000 years ago by this time. Those who are worthy and survive the 1000 years do not get a glorified body but can live forever in the New Earth and will live in the flesh and have children forever.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

No more glorified bodies will be passed out after this!

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,



Isa_9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Isa. 66: 22-24 will be literally true.
 
You say that, but if God says He wants everyone to come to Him, and they don't, then He would fail. To believe that God would fail is to lack sufficient faith in God. That's what I'm saying.
God will not break his own laws and he gave us autonomy which he will not take away. God gave us a choice. He would that we would all come to repentance. But we all won't.
 
2 Peter 1:11 - His is an everlasting kingdom
1 John 2:25 We have the promise of eternal "aionios" (same word) life.
It does appear that Yeshua's government is for an age. Here is a passage to consider. The end of death means you don't die later.

1 Cor. 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
 
Well, I guess we'll see. As for me, I don't believe it. I would be sorely tempted to stop trying to care about people that I don't care about (translation: almost all people) if I knew that one way or the other they'd all be reconciled to Christ anyways without my prayers or awkward attempts at evangelism. If I'm God's co-worker saving people from irrevocable loss I can just about work up the empathy engine. If in actuality no-one is irrevocably lost... errrrrrrrrr.... let's just say there will be an adjustment period while I try to wrestle with how much I feel like participating in a game with significantly lowered stakes.
 
Well, I guess we'll see. As for me, I don't believe it. I would be sorely tempted to stop trying to care about people that I don't care about (translation: almost all people) if I knew that one way or the other they'd all be reconciled to Christ anyways without my prayers or awkward attempts at evangelism. If I'm God's co-worker saving people from irrevocable loss I can just about work up the empathy engine. If in actuality no-one is irrevocably lost... errrrrrrrrr.... let's just say there will be an adjustment period while I try to wrestle with how much I feel like participating in a game with significantly lowered stakes.

a. We have to be careful not to make salvation be about our works. Just as we cannot take responsibility for our own salvation, we shouldn't fall into the snare of believing we have anything to do with the salvation of others.

b. The stakes are still high. Life is exponentially more rich when one has Christ in one's heart, so your witnessing still has the potential to inspire others to accept Christ, which will not be what causes their salvation, but it will inevitably result in the fruits of the spirit, which redound not only to their benefit but to the benefit of those around them.
 
The following crossed my desk today, and it's certainly relevant to our discussion:


God Is Really God

by – W. B. Screws

God is operating the universe in accord with the counsel of His will, and life and death are in His hands – not in hands of man. This is not known among the ultra-religious. They are too much taken up with their own importance, and with their belief in God’s inability to carry on without them. This recognition of the sovereignty of God is found mainly among those who have never been in the spotlight of the religious world.

That God is operating the universe in accord with the counsel of His own will (Ephesians 1:11), is a satisfying truth to those who have learned that God is never under the necessity of giving an account of His doings. But to those who do not concede to Him the right of absolute sovereignty, this passage cannot seem true. Not having full confidence in Him, they cannot conceive of Him as the source of all. Once we see that His goal is the justification of all (Romans 5:18), the salvation of all (I Timothy 2:3-6), and the reconciliation of the universe (Colossians 1:20), and that everything between the beginning and the consummation is a necessary step in the reaching of the goal, we not only see that He is operating the universe, but we acquiesce in it, and thank Him for it.

Job, the man who spoke that which is right concerning Jehovah (42:7), asks in all seriousness,

What! Shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? (Job 2:10).​

Since we learn to value good only through an experience of evil, there is nothing strange in God bringing evil upon us. His chief aim with man is to reveal Himself. How could any person appreciate Him for what He is, unless there has been an experience of evil? Adam had no more appreciation of God than a hog has of the tree from which the plum falls. This is why it was necessary for him to be brought into an experience of evil.

Some of the most majestic words ever spoken by Jehovah are found in Isaiah 45. Yet, to the average religious person, they seem partly untrue. Here they are:

I am Jehovah, and there is none else, there is no God beside Me. I girded thee though thou hast not known Me. That they may know from the east and from the west, there is none beside Me, that I am Jehovah and there is none else, I form the light and create the darkness; I make peace and create evil; I, Jehovah, do all these (5-7).​

When the sun is gone and darkness spreads about us, and we feel apprehensive, and little children cling closely to their parents, it is Jehovah Who has created the darkness, just as it is He who forms the light when the sun shows itself above the eastern horizon. Peace is His creation, and so is evil. He who would say God makes peace but that evil is no creation of His is simply broadcasting his unbelief.

There is a future period of peace. In this we exult by faith. Wars shall cease and peace spread its beautiful wings over all the Earth. When this comes to pass it will be the doing of Jehovah – but not any more so than the present evil is of His making. Before the world will learn that wars are futile, the evil must increase. Nations must be exhausted. Man’s fighting power must reach the bottom. There must be untold suffering. This evil will prepare mankind to appreciate the peace which will be brought to Earth by the Prince of Peace. The world of mankind had never yet wished for this Prince. Men have had too much confidence in themselves. That confidence must be lost in the prevalence of evil before the world will be ready for Him Who brings peace.

Men have largely lost confidence in the ability of the masses to manage affairs. They are turning to leaders more and more. Even in our own country there is a feeling of helplessness, so far as the wisdom of the multitude is concerned, and we are trusting more and more in one man’s wisdom. In other countries on both sides of this titanic struggle, mankind looks to leaders more than to themselves. This will continue until there is a world-wide confederation looking to one man to run the affairs of the world. He too shall fail to give men what they desire. When the failure of the dictator is fully manifested by his ignominious defeat on the plain of Megiddo, the world will be ready for the Prince of Peace. It is then that He will take the helm.

They who have a program of their own have neither time to consider God’s program nor faith to believe He has one. They will concede that there is, indeed, a program, but it is one that God has given them to carry out. They do not believe He has told them exactly what it is but that this only shows His faith in man’s ability to devise something that is better than He could suggest! This is why pastors spend so much time planning what to do, and how to do it.

I have in mind a young man who, in former days, listened with apparent interest to the truth. Now he disdains, not only the truth, but those who preach it. What has happened? Why, he has been given a place of prominence in the church, and on his shoulders is much of the task of carrying out its program.

Such people, if honest, are bound to know that the program of man is fast failing, and if they are sincere it must give them many an anxious moment. They cannot see ahead, nor can they believe there is anything better, unless man can think of it and bring it to pass. They are thoughtless ones who refuse to see that man’s efforts are a failure. They believe man’s ingenuity will yet devise something that will work.

The Pilgrim’s Messenger
Volume XXI; Number 11
June, 1942
Glennville, GA
 
Last edited:
Some of the most majestic words ever spoken by Jehovah are found in Isaiah 45. Yet, to the average religious person, they seem partly untrue. Here they are:

I am Jehovah, and there is none else, there is no God beside Me. I girded thee though thou hast not known Me. That they may know from the east and from the west, there is none beside Me, that I am Jehovah and there is none else, I form the light and create the darkness; I make peace and create evil; I, Jehovah, do all these :)5-7).
A Strongs really helps understand what this verse is saying. God is not saying he makes evil in the definition we use. The key is how he is using opposite words. First is light and dark. Clear opposites. Some translations say good and evil next which is a very poor translation and peace and evil is only half way there. The word translated to peace is shalom and pretty much only means peace. The word translated to evil is ra and can mean evil but can also mean violence or chaos. Un-peace if it were a word. Wouldn't make much sense for God to make something in Rebellion to himself which is the Hebrew meaning of evil.
 
Wouldn't make much sense for God to make something in Rebellion to himself which is the Hebrew meaning of evil.

I don’t understand what you’re trying to say. Whether its evil, or un-peace, the passage clearly states that God makes both peace and un-peace. Do you have another way of translating it that would redirect, or are you saying it just cant be so because it counters a personal perspective?
 
I don’t understand what you’re trying to say. Whether its evil, or un-peace, the passage clearly states that God makes both peace and un-peace. Do you have another way of translating it that would redirect, or are you saying it just cant be so because it counters a personal perspective?
I was just wanted to clarify what the actual word used here meant because the meaning can be lost in translation and whole theologies can be built on the poor translation. I have seen it used a lot in an attempt to say God produces both good and evil and therefore produced Satan evil which becomes a slippery slope. In the English we don't have a good word to translate here but un-peace or perhaps anti-peace would be a better fit. Ra can mean evil as we use the word evil but It is bouncing it off the word Peace that pulls its anti-peace meaning out.

A side note I always thought was interesting is the Word for pharaoh is made up of 4 Hebrew letters. The outside make up the body and the inside make up the "heart" of the word. The outside 2 letters of the word Pharaoh spell the Hebrew word tongue. The inside two spell ra or evil. So the Hebrew meaning of the word Pharaoh is evil tongue or evil speaker. One who ensnares with words. I don't really have anywhere to go with that other than I always thought it was interesting.
 
I was just wanted to clarify what the actual word used here meant because the meaning can be lost in translation and whole theologies can be built on the poor translation. I have seen it used a lot in an attempt to say God produces both good and evil and therefore produced Satan evil which becomes a slippery slope. In the English we don't have a good word to translate here but un-peace or perhaps anti-peace would be a better fit. Ra can mean evil as we use the word evil but It is bouncing it off the word Peace that pulls its anti-peace meaning out.

A side note I always thought was interesting is the Word for pharaoh is made up of 4 Hebrew letters. The outside make up the body and the inside make up the "heart" of the word. The outside 2 letters of the word Pharaoh spell the Hebrew word tongue. The inside two spell ra or evil. So the Hebrew meaning of the word Pharaoh is evil tongue or evil speaker. One who ensnares with words. I don't really have anywhere to go with that other than I always thought it was interesting.

Strongs doesn’t support your assertion in the slightest

from ; bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral):-- adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease(-ure), distress, evil((- favouredness), man, thing), + exceedingly, great, grief(-vous), harm, heavy, hurt(-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief(-vous), misery, naught(-ty), noisome, + not please, sad(-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked(-ly, -ness, one), worse(-st), wretchedness, wrong. (Incl. feminine raaah; as adjective or noun.).

adj
  1. bad, evil
    1. bad, disagreeable, malignant
    2. bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
    3. evil, displeasing
    4. bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
    5. bad (of value)
    6. worse than, worst (comparison)
    7. sad, unhappy
    8. evil (hurtful)
    9. bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
    10. bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
      1. in general, of persons, of thoughts
      2. deeds, actions n m
  2. evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
    1. evil, distress, adversity
    2. evil, injury, wrong
    3. evil (ethical) n f
  3. evil, misery, distress, injury
    1. evil, misery, distress
    2. evil, injury, wrong
    3. evil (ethical)
 
Strongs doesn’t support your assertion in the slightest

from ; bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral):-- adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease(-ure), distress, evil((- favouredness), man, thing), + exceedingly, great, grief(-vous), harm, heavy, hurt(-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief(-vous), misery, naught(-ty), noisome, + not please, sad(-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked(-ly, -ness, one), worse(-st), wretchedness, wrong. (Incl. feminine raaah; as adjective or noun.).

adj
  1. bad, evil
    1. bad, disagreeable, malignant
    2. bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
    3. evil, displeasing
    4. bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
    5. bad (of value)
    6. worse than, worst (comparison)
    7. sad, unhappy
    8. evil (hurtful)
    9. bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
    10. bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
      1. in general, of persons, of thoughts
      2. deeds, actions n m
  2. evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
    1. evil, distress, adversity
    2. evil, injury, wrong
    3. evil (ethical) n f
  3. evil, misery, distress, injury
    1. evil, misery, distress
    2. evil, injury, wrong
    3. evil (ethical)
Sure it does. affliction, calamity, displease(-ure), distress are all opposites of Shalom and don't mean evil as thought of in western thought. I did a quick study and the word that would probably best transloate into the western thought of "evil" is most often translated to wicked and means ungodly. I copied this straight from a site that gives the Idea behind Shalom in Hebrew. Its not the best but first I came too.

Many are familiar with the Hebrew word shalom or “peace.” The common western definition of peace is — the absence of conflict or war — but in Hebrew it means so much more.

“Shalom” is taken from the root word shalam, which means, “to be safe in mind, body, or estate.” It speaks of completeness, fullness, or a type of wholeness that encourages you to give back — to generously re-pay something in some way.

True biblical shalom refers to an inward sense of completeness or wholeness. Although it can describe the absence of war, a majority of biblical references refer to an inner completeness and tranquility. In Israel today, when you greet someone or say goodbye, you say, Shalom. You are literally saying, “may you be full of well-being” or, “may health and prosperity be upon you.”
If this is the way we understand biblical peace, then suddenly many verses take on a whole new meaning. With this Hebrew thought of shalom in mind, let’s look at a few common Scriptures about peace:
 
I am not good at all with the sentence structure and can't remember what you call this type of structure but even in English you can tell from the flow of the sentence God is using opposites to give a picture of his character. Even once translated you can still get the feel that, that is what he is doing with the comparison of light and dark. That comparison is what brings the proper definition of Ra out. Peace and evil in English nor in Hebrew are opposites like light and dark.
 
And?

Remember that the title of this thread is, "Is God the Source of Evil?"

Remember also the truism that correlation is not causation. That certain words have similar meanings or may have been mistranslated does not, by itself, even begin to speak about what caused or created evil.
 
Back
Top