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Missing Christmas
- Thread starter FollowingHim2
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What was the date are we scheduling to be at your place for these joyful celebrations?
Pick one. It doesn’t matter.What was the date are we scheduling to be at your place for these joyful celebrations?
I post this because it is I one of the best defenses of the pro-Christmas Christian position that I have read:
https://news.gab.com/2021/12/15/against-the-modern-judaizers/
It is not meant to attack anyone's faith.
If it is not appropriate in the "Messianic Jews / Hebrew Roots Gentiles" safe space then feel free to delete it.
https://news.gab.com/2021/12/15/against-the-modern-judaizers/
It is not meant to attack anyone's faith.
If it is not appropriate in the "Messianic Jews / Hebrew Roots Gentiles" safe space then feel free to delete it.
Wow
The fact that he includes Halloween clearly shows the spirit that he is of.
edited to say that the judaizers were condemned because they taught that there was no salvation without circumcision, while the ant-Jews killed Jews for being Jews.
Be careful which spirit you are voting for.
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For me I think the main question is, was it okay that the early church did inculturation/Christianizing pagan rituals/customs? Also, after centuries of practicing these new Christianized ways, with a few new ones added along the way, do the things we, as gentiles, do to Celebrate the birth of Jesus really mean nothing?
I personally don't agree that Jeremiah 10:2-5 talks about a Christmas tree. After reading many translations, it always was about understanding the stupidity of wanting something from a piece of wood, that was carved from skilled craftsmen and then covered in something precious by other craftsmen. I had to smile at some of the translations using the example of a Scarecrow in a field to show how these man made carved wooden things couldn't even scare birds away. My understanding has always been that idols looked like people (gods) or creatures, I suspect so the common person could relate to it in some way. I do not think that an evergreen tree of any kind with silly things hung on it represents these verses. I more think that the video @PeteR posted about worshiping living things in the winter time out of ignorance of the spinning Earth and seasons is a better argument against trees in your home. Though I have never met a person who prayed to their Christmas tree for fertility or the desire for spring to come or anything else. But this brings me to my original question...if a tradition of a person means something else than what it started out to be centuries ago is that tradition meaningless?
Christmas to me is about wintry decorations (which for a Florida girl is pretty fun to think about), shiny lights and the acknowledgement of the birth of a Savior for this fallen World. (Yes, I know he most likely wasn't born in the winter time and that the magi didn't find him in the place he was born.) I grew up with Santa Claus but have chosen to not continue that tradition with my own family, though every year I get a chance to walk in grace towards family and friends who still choose to do that tradition in their families. As I have been thinking about this subject, it has occurred to me ironically that the early Church tried to Christianize pagan rituals for various reasons but that now it seems the pagans are taking it all back with Santa Claus being celebrated around the World now and that many non Christians probably don't even know what all the "religious" symbolism is about. I know, that has been pretty obvious for years. I am not always the quickest. An argument for not Christianizing pagan traditions?
To end this very long post (at least for me), I truly hope that all of us who have chosen to be a part of this site can just add the Christmas debate to the list of things that we view differently from others, or are at a different place in our journeys in regards to them.
I personally don't agree that Jeremiah 10:2-5 talks about a Christmas tree. After reading many translations, it always was about understanding the stupidity of wanting something from a piece of wood, that was carved from skilled craftsmen and then covered in something precious by other craftsmen. I had to smile at some of the translations using the example of a Scarecrow in a field to show how these man made carved wooden things couldn't even scare birds away. My understanding has always been that idols looked like people (gods) or creatures, I suspect so the common person could relate to it in some way. I do not think that an evergreen tree of any kind with silly things hung on it represents these verses. I more think that the video @PeteR posted about worshiping living things in the winter time out of ignorance of the spinning Earth and seasons is a better argument against trees in your home. Though I have never met a person who prayed to their Christmas tree for fertility or the desire for spring to come or anything else. But this brings me to my original question...if a tradition of a person means something else than what it started out to be centuries ago is that tradition meaningless?
Christmas to me is about wintry decorations (which for a Florida girl is pretty fun to think about), shiny lights and the acknowledgement of the birth of a Savior for this fallen World. (Yes, I know he most likely wasn't born in the winter time and that the magi didn't find him in the place he was born.) I grew up with Santa Claus but have chosen to not continue that tradition with my own family, though every year I get a chance to walk in grace towards family and friends who still choose to do that tradition in their families. As I have been thinking about this subject, it has occurred to me ironically that the early Church tried to Christianize pagan rituals for various reasons but that now it seems the pagans are taking it all back with Santa Claus being celebrated around the World now and that many non Christians probably don't even know what all the "religious" symbolism is about. I know, that has been pretty obvious for years. I am not always the quickest. An argument for not Christianizing pagan traditions?
To end this very long post (at least for me), I truly hope that all of us who have chosen to be a part of this site can just add the Christmas debate to the list of things that we view differently from others, or are at a different place in our journeys in regards to them.
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The most Christianized of pagan traditions is the symbol of the cross. It was a Roman execution and torture device that Christians adopted as a symbol of defiance because Christ Himself defeated the cross and He thereby defeated the Roman Empire.
Should we do away with that symbol because of its Roman origin?
Should we do away with that symbol because of its Roman origin?
It is a well written article overall and makes some excellent points concisely. However
He really does undermine his point by throwing Halloween into the mix. We have to use discernment and reject things that are evil. Surely an honest examination of any culture from God's perspective will reveal some parts that are ungodly, it won't justify all of it. He himself says that through inculturation Christians preserve what is harmless about the pagan culture but reject what is evil - and you can't get much more obviously evil than Halloween, at least in its modern form.
All Saints Day on the other hand is clearly harmless and may be good, and there are obviously entirely Christian ways of commemorating All Hallows Eve preceding it, but that's not what he said - he specifically said Halloween, a word which in common usage does not refer to a Christian feast day but to the evil celebrations that precede it.
He seems to be simply taking modern American culture and finding excuses to justify the lot of it.
The points he makes however do have a lot of merit and are worth considering, so it is a good article. He just undermines it so much in the first paragraph that it is hard to read the rest without coming at it from a critical, negative perspective, and that may cause readers to reject otherwise valid points.
You don’t think that labeling everyone who has problems with the paganism as judaizers isn’t quite evil in itself?
I mean, the title itself is quite an attack on people who have zero belief in following Torah, but choose to avoid the mixture of pagan celebrations with a sprinkling of New Testament history.
I said that the article contained points that have a lot of merit, which made it a good article. In other words, an article worth reading to sift through and find the good parts. I didn't intend to imply that I agree with everything he said.
Amen!
Amen!
Amen!
100% Agree. I have stopped calling myself a Messianic Jews because to many are wolves in sheep's clothing and designed to pull in Jews into normal Christian Churches. Why even say you are a Messianic Jews if you follow everything they do? The Hijacking of The Jewish Faith is wrong and started with the Catholic Church and the fallen away of G-d. Almost Every Church today is so far from G-d that in that Time when His Son Returns He will not Know them and say "Depart from me you works of sin/breaking my Fathers Laws!" We should be focused on bring The Faith of G-d back to its Hebrew/Jewish Roots and not drag it into The Falseness of The Lawless One who Yahshua will kill with His Coming! It hurts my very soul to see people who claim G-d and Yahshua and yet can't see they have been mislead. Chanukkah is of G-d and is close to Christmas just not evil and last for 8 Days.
Everyone who Truly Believes in G-d must Obey His Laws and put away All Sins/Law Breaking to gain access to Heaven.
Some of this is such a load of nonsense that I hardly know where to begin.
I guess Judaizers will Judaize
and those who hope in Christ will follow the Good Shepherd.The Holy Spirit, through the apostle Paul clearly told us that physical circumcision is not required for salvation (and the Torah also clearly requires it). Clearly, something is different between the Old and New Testaments (though it is all from God).
The Torah is of God and is Holy. Still, it cannot save or sanctify.
Christ alone saves and sanctifies.
The sinner who was crucified with Christ was saved by Christ, through faith, apart from works of the Law. The sinner recognized Christ, bowed the knee, and was saved. That's how God saves us too.
Who has bewitched you that you should embrace the Galatian heresy? Have you perhaps fallen from Christ like the recipients of the book of Hebrews were being tempted to do?
On to lesser matters
Chanukah
Where precisely does the Torah command Chanukah observance?
It doesn't. Chanukah shows up many hundreds of years later.
I have no problem with Chanukah observance, but also believe it reasonable to celebrate the Incarnation when God became a Man and saved His people. I also believe it is reasonable to rejoice in the Greater Passover when the Lamb of God bore the sins of His people on the cross, and also the Resurrection of Christ as He defeated death.
That said, I agree there is a lot of pagan nonsense mixed up with Christianity, Christmas, and Easter which we should work to remove.
Also, what's up with the silly "G-d" spelling, and then actually spelling out the name Yahshua (which contains the Divine Name)?
God isn't the Divine Name. More importantly, the Almighty prohibits using His Name in vain, He doesn't prohibit using His Name rightly and reverently.
Reply: I will break it down for you so that you will see why it's all true.
Matthew 5:17-20
- King James Version 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 7:20-28
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. ( Breaking Torah Laws )
2 Thessalonians 2:8-10
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. ( Breaking Torah Laws )
Paul is the most misunderstood author in The Bible.I guess Judaizers will Judaize
The Holy Spirit, through the apostle Paul clearly told us that physical circumcision is not required for salvation (and the Torah also clearly requires it). Clearly, something is different between the Old and New Testaments (though it is all from God).
Acts 16:3
3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.
Galatians 5:2, KJV: Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. ( Torah Laws )
John 10:22-23 shows Jesus walking in the Temple area in Jerusalem during the Feast of Dedication.
The Problem is The Catholic Church picked what books and letters that made it into The New Testament and they are also behind its pagan worship.
The Catholic Church provided a conciliar definition of its biblical canon in 382 at the (local) Council of Rome (based upon the Decretum Gelasianum, of uncertain authorship) as well as at the Council of Trent of 1545, reaffirming the Canons of Florence of 1442 and North African Councils (Hippo and Carthage) of 393–419.
Could Paul be a lone wolf that started teaching stuff not approved Doctrine, who was in charge of The Church Paul or Peter?
Paul Never Stopped Keeping the Law
Although some may claim otherwise, the apostle Paul never stopped keeping the Law of Moses [Hebrew: Torah] after he encountered the risen Messiah in Acts chapter 9.Wait, what...?
Wasn't Paul "all things to all men" as he said in 1 Corinthians 9:19-23?
Yes, he was, but that does not mean that he followed the customs of the Gentiles and forsook the Law of Moses to do so.
Consider these passages from Scripture that speak of Paul:
Acts 21:19-24
After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. "What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.
The leaders of the congregation in Jerusalem (including James and Peter) declared that Paul "walked orderly, keeping the Law."
For those who might suggest this was the Law of Christ, please note that the context refers to the false charges being leveled against Paul: that he was teaching Jews to forsake Moses (a common term for the Law), not to circumcise their children, nor to walk according to the customs. Disobedience to the customs are also part of the accusations against Paul. The leaders then instruct Paul to prove (by offering the sacrifices and ceremonial activities involved with completing a Nazirite vow) that he walks orderly, keeping the Law in order demonstrate the charges against him to be baseless and false.
Consider Acts 22...
"I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated under Gamaliel, strictly according to the law of our fathers, being zealous for God just as you all are today. (Acts 22:3)
Note that Paul doesn't say he was a Jew (past tense) but that he is a Jew (present tense). He also does not say that he was zealous for G-d but that he is (present tense) zealous for G-d. For Jews, this zealousness is expressed by their obedience to the commandments expressed in the Law of Moses.
Many false charges of this kind are brought against Paul. When he speaks before Festus in his own defense he declares:
"I have committed no offense either against the Law of the Jews or against the temple or against Caesar." (Acts 25:8)
At the end of his ministry, after Paul appeals to Caesar in his trial and is taken to Rome in chains, Paul speaks with the Jews of Rome:
After three days Paul called together those who were the leading men of the Jews, and when they came together, he began saying to them, " Brethren, though I had done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans. (Acts 28:17)
This is the same Paul who wrote while in prison to the believers in Thessalonica:
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us. (2 Thessalonians 2:15)
If Paul had ever taught traditions that were contrary to the Torah/Law of Moses/the Law of the Jews, or the customs of the fathers then he would have been transgressing the Law and violating the customs of his fathers.
Paul's own words and the testimony of Scripture teach us that Paul never stopped keeping the Torah.
While Paul's obedience may come as a shock to some, we should recognize that there is no error in his actions. Christians often share with unbelievers "the Roman road" to salvation:
- Romans 3:23- For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of G-d.
- Romans 6:23- For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of G-d is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
- Romans 5:8- when we were in our sin Christ Jesus came to die for us.
- Romans 10:9- for whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Paul makes the point in Romans 7 that our flesh is sold in bondage to sin (Romans 7:14) but that Christ sets us free from that flesh (Romans 7:24). Until Messiah returns and we are given glorified bodies we are still in our sinful, fleshly bodies. While we are still in that state we are still, with our flesh, serving the law of sin (Romans 7:25) but we should strive against that default behavior.
Paul makes this statement in his first letter to Timothy:
But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted. (1 Timothy 1:8-11)
The passages mentioned above indicate Paul was using the Law in a lawful manner and continued to observe it for as long as Scripture records the events of his life.
From Scripture we can know that Paul never stopped keeping the Law.
G-ds Name is in many of Jewish names but is not seen as writening G-ds name.
Joshua/Yahshua is a very command Jewish name like The Book of Joshua/Yahshua that means (G-d Who Saves)
We don't write His Name because it can be deleted or damaged so we write Hashem or G-d.
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One of Billy Graham's sermons comes to mind for me here.
He was talking about a man who was earthly and who was not a Christian or a believer in anything but himself. One day the man got on an airplane to travel somewhere and the plane crashed into the sea killing everyone aboard but this earthly man. The man found his way to an island and when he got onto the shore he thanked God for saving him from the sea and he accepted Jesus into his heart as his Lord and Savior.
The man never left that island and he died there. The man never went door to door asking people to listen to him or read a magazine. He never tithed. He never performed any particular rituals and he ate shellfish and crabs because that's part of what he had to eat.
Graham talked about this man's years on the island and then asked if the man was saved. Would he go to Heaven because he didn't perform any rituals or observe holidays or other rules that he was ignorant of? Was the Grace of Jesus sufficient?
Graham said that anyone who would believe that God would put a man on an island, have that man worship Him and His Son, only to cast that man into Hell for violating some rule or another...
Well, if that's what you believe then you're worshipping the wrong God.
He was talking about a man who was earthly and who was not a Christian or a believer in anything but himself. One day the man got on an airplane to travel somewhere and the plane crashed into the sea killing everyone aboard but this earthly man. The man found his way to an island and when he got onto the shore he thanked God for saving him from the sea and he accepted Jesus into his heart as his Lord and Savior.
The man never left that island and he died there. The man never went door to door asking people to listen to him or read a magazine. He never tithed. He never performed any particular rituals and he ate shellfish and crabs because that's part of what he had to eat.
Graham talked about this man's years on the island and then asked if the man was saved. Would he go to Heaven because he didn't perform any rituals or observe holidays or other rules that he was ignorant of? Was the Grace of Jesus sufficient?
Graham said that anyone who would believe that God would put a man on an island, have that man worship Him and His Son, only to cast that man into Hell for violating some rule or another...
Well, if that's what you believe then you're worshipping the wrong God.
MeganC, Before The World was formed and Before The Angels in Heaven was Created by G-d. Long Before Everything we know and do not know, G-d was and G-d Knew Everything that would happen to everyone one of us. He Knew when Lucifer would fall and when Eve would eat of The Fruit, He also Knew that He would wipe off The Entire Earth but Noah and his Family. G-d Knew Before Joseph went into Egypt All of Israel would become Slaves, He also Knew Moses would be born to Lead them out of Egypt and that they would build a golden calf and half of them would die. He knew they would demand a King and that King would prove to fail them, but that was so Yahshua would be King under The lineage of King David.
G-d was alone and G-d Knew Everything long before it happened and no one but G-d set it into Motion!
Also, here is a few more.
1# The Story of Job
2# What about a person on an island who never knew right or wrong nor G-d or His Son? Would that person be Saved?
3# What about Every Gentile before Yahshua are they Saved?
Don't just take the word of some Mega Pastor who gets paid off memberships and learn what G-d has in His Word.
I would Love Everyone to get into Heaven but if they do not Obey G-d from what The Word of G-d tells they won't.
I'm not sure where this discussion might be going so, I'll chip in here with a reminder from Scripture concerning salvation from sin.
Writing to those who were already saved from sin, we read in Ephesians 2:8-10, For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
If you are saved from the eternal penalty for your sin, it is solely upon the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ. That saving faith will be an active faith resulting in a new life walk - a walk in good works which God prepared.
That saving faith is grounded in the truth of the gospel; the good news. We read in 1 Corinthians 15:1-11, Now I make known to you, brothers, the gospel which I proclaimed as good news to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I proclaimed to you as good news, unless you believed for nothing. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep. After that, He appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. For I am the least of the apostles, and not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
The gospel by which a sinner might believe and be saved includes these essential elements; that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared... . The gospel is the truth of a literal and physical death, burial, and resurrection of the One who is the Christ, the Messiah. This was all according to the Scriptures and people saw Him after His resurrection. We ought to stand united in this gospel as it is the way of salvation for all sinners; there is no other way. Shalom