Which has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with this discussion. Whether you know it or not, you're talking about 'tradition' (I feel a song coming on...)
Did Paul rebuke anybody for rosary beads?
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1 corinthians 9:19-23
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Did Paul rebuke anybody for rosary beads?
I find it interesting that you even add to MY WORDS things I don't say.
No wonder you have such an easy time twisting His.
They're generally different words, with different applications, but the connection I can't help but see in THIS discussion has to do with priests who "fail to teach My people the difference, between the holy and the profane, the clean and the unclean," in multiple references.
Here we see people who not only fail to teach the difference, but profess ignorance that it even exists, much less matters.
And it's still painfully obvious they prefer to ignore His Words, especially when doing that which He 'criticizes,' like teaching people to ignore more than even the "least of His commandments." Anybody else notice how STILL the only response to Matthew 5:17-19 is to redefine what He did not?
And, finally, this is just plain asinine:
But it really bugs me that you just plain won't READ!!!!! I've have NEVER, not once, EVER, on this forum, or any any of my teachings, "COMMANDED" anyone to do ANYTHING. (But, you, certainly, do tempt me...)
His word is about CHOICE, dammit! "Choose life," choose BLESSING, and not cursing. You go ahead and choose whatever the #*@! you want. But when you put words in MY mouth, and especially His, expect to be called out for it.
I've been called worse by far better sycophants.
But it really bugs me that you just plain won't READ!!!!! I've have NEVER, not once, EVER, on this forum, or any any of my teachings, "COMMANDED" anyone to do ANYTHING. (But, you, certainly, do tempt me...)
His word is about CHOICE, dammit! "Choose life," choose BLESSING, and not cursing. You go ahead and choose whatever the #*@! you want. But when you put words in MY mouth, and especially His, expect to be called out for it.
This question is the same type of question that, Scripture says was asked of Paul and those with him and mostly was directed as an accusation against them. I point this out because a number of the Torah observance gentlemen here, have in this thread and in the past stated that Paul in his ministry taught believers to keep the law of Moses. Have you ever been accused of being lawless? I can say for sure that I have never heard the Torah observance folks being accused of being lawless or that they say we should sin more so that grace may abound. Some may just dismiss this or feel that it is a badge of honor, but perhaps one should ask themselves why is this the case. In other words, if Paul was accused of being lawless and you are teaching what Paul taught why are you not being accused of being lawless?
This may come as a shock to some here, but the Torah is in all of the Bibles I own, and I read it. When I say that we are not under the law of Moses, it doesn’t mean that I have burned it or hate it or seethe with bitterness as I read it. On the contrary, I fully believe God gave it, that it is righteous, and good. The law of Moses, and yes Jesus called it that, has a great deal of value in the life of the believer. In the instance of your question here the law clarifies what the definition of sexual immorality is, to include bestiality and incest. The law of Moses contains aspects of the ultimate righteous unchanging nature of God, but does not contain all of it. There is a higher standard of law, and that is the law of Christ. To illustrate this, take this excerpt from the sermon on the mount.
[21] “Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: [22] But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”
The ultimate righteous law of Christ goes even beyond actions, it goes to the thoughts and intents of the heart. To further illustrate look at Matthew 19:7-8.
[7] “They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? [8] He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.”
God permitted it because of the hardness of their hearts, but God’s righteous perfection for marriage far exceeds the law of divorce in the law of Moses. The Law God writes on the heart cuts far deeper and is far more demanding then the law of Moses. The Holy Spirit convicts the heart of the believer of that which displeases God with or without a specific commandment. The law of Moses is a partial illustration of the righteousness of God. The law is a paidagōgos, that is a child director or tutor or guardian, that was given to watch over the children of Israel until Messiah came. It was given after the covenant promise was given to Abraham and it was given because of transgression. It was temporary and it gave way to the law of Christ written not on tablets of stone, but on the heart. This is why, throughout the epistles of the New Testament, the believers are not reprimanded for eating pork, told to be sure they are keeping shabbat correctly. Followers of Messiah are under His Law which is the perfect Law of Liberty. We have liberty in Christ who is the mediator of a better covenant built on better promises. If you love Yeshua you will keep His commands and His commands are these, believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. Keeping the law of Moses is not what followers of Messiah are called to obey. His yoke is easy and His burden is light.
Galatians 5:1-2
[1] “Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. [2] Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”
Good question. And the answer is relevant.
Paul was misunderstood - then and now. He was accused of teaching that Torah was irrelevant, or "done away with," or - pick you pejorative. But he was not. (Had he been, he would have been a "liar, and the Truth not in him," and a traitor to his own Master.)
Paul had to prove that the - what? 'ceremonial' - elements had NOT been "done away with." Same for "sacrifices" (actually offerings, they do differ, he knew that.) So he took a Nazerite vow, and paid for the "ceremonial" completion of those vows as per the 'Torah of Moses' that he demonstrated by his own actions was NOT 'abolished'. (Acts 21, AFTER the 'minimum necessary conditions' letter in Acts 15, even.)
And as for being 'accused' today? "Lawlessness abounds." On EVERY front.
Whether you read it or not, I wrote about the truth of the gospel and Judaizing. I'll quote the passage again for your benefit; Gal. 2:14, But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?
The reason I put this question to was for you to expand on what you had already written regarding righteousness...
@rgmann @Asforme&myhouse @frederick et al who seem to be either misunderstanding and/or twisting the words of others smattered with false accusations
That word righteousness is correlated within scripture as being the path UNTO holiness which is what we ALL should be aiming for UNTO eternal life.
For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things [is] death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. — Romans 6:20-23 KJV
This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. — Ephesians 4:17-24 KJV
The aim of everyone involved in this conversation and by default this platform, I hope is, to follow peace with all and holiness (Though I am fully aware that there are those with their own agendas) desiring to have a biblical family is a bedrock of righteousness and true holiness.
Accusing anyone of being a Judaizer misses the point being made.
I would hope that regardless of one's current doctrinal position we can all agree that it is better to desire to be righteous than right, because seeking to be right will not always lead to being righteous but seeking to be righteous will lead to being right, which may, lead to a change of doctrinal position as you follow after righteousness.
Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock [whence] ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit [whence] ye are digged. — Isaiah 51:1 KJV
But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. — 1 Timothy 6:11 KJV
Do you really think that YAH in his work through Christ on the cross and his resurrection has purposed that we all, as those who he is gathering to himself, should abandon all that he spoke and wrote and that his prophets and apostles died for, so that we can take on and rebrand celebrations and lifestyles that are contrary and claim they are now clean and acceptable to him?
Think about it....
If anyone was to come on this platform or any biblical platform or into any christian congregation and even suggest that we should even consider redeeming and sanctifying, Diwali, Wesak, Kumbh Mela, Obon, Dia de los Muertos, Holi and Carnival, or any other heathen festival what would you say?
Yet this is what you are supporting and defending whilst vehemently opposing those who say look at what YAH has stated in the bible as the template on how we should live.
Don't you think that mindset is rather strange?
Ask yourselves have you been deceived into paganism / heathenism?
"The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church." -An Essay on The Development of the Christian Doctrine by John Henry "Cardinal Newman" p.359
Everything you are defending is heathen in origin, whilst opposing that which is holy unto YAH in its origin.
Shalom Love and Blessings
False. This is not true!
“Jew” has nothing to do with the topic. Jewishness is a culture that grew up organically after the Babylonian captivity. Anyone who tries to force Jewishness should be reprimanded. As should anyone who doesn’t know what the difference between being a Jew and keeping the Law is but still pretends to speak confidently on the topic.
Ok brother maybe I should not have lumped you in with the other two brothers so please clarify and state what you mean by Judaizing and what customs apostle Paul was teaching that the Roman's could not observe or keep.
I'm pretty sure no one here is disputing the truth of the gospel, that we are saved by grace through faith not of works.
The discussion seems to me, to be centered around now we are saved should we continue to transgress the Torah of YAH so more of that saving grace can abound?
And so you’ve been hoisted on your poittard. You are now picking pieces of the Law you want to keep, just as you accuse us of doing but after you have loudly proclaimed that it any piece of the Law is fulfilled it all is.
If all of the Law is fulfilled then you can’t label as sin anything not so designated in the New Testament. Which leaves you in the weird position of telling a man he can have sex with his step-mother but he and his pet goat can do what they want with his mother.
You can quote something out of context, in ignorance, and endlessly - as has been demonstrated in this thread, for one example - and it doesn't change His Truth, or the meaning of words.
Do you even understand was "live as a Jew" meant? (That was for the benefit of those trying to follow.) Hint: Try Mark chapter 7 (again!):
"BY YOUR TRADITIONS [which were called nomos!] you have made the commandments of God of no effect."
But this at least is true: Some accusers here are not being "straightforward about the truth of the gospel."
If you ignore the Words in Red, and don't understand the context, much less the meaning of the original words, you will NOT "rightly divide" anything.
Sorry, my mistake.
I was hoping it was pretty clear, and that those who generally wanted to "search out the Scriptures for themselves" would do so, because that's a better way to learn, IMHO. While those that don't, still wouldn't anyway. (It's all "Old" stuff anyway.)
I will add this, though. The modern usage of the Biblical Hebrew word "tzadik" simply describes an aspiration, a scholar and teacher of His Word. Which is, of course, at the heart of being "righteous."
But the irony is of those who prattle about Hebrews 7 and claiming to be "priests and kings" of the "Order of Melchizedek" not only without understanding what "Melek-Tzadik" actually means, but railing against the whole concept of that name in prideful ignorance (or worse, rebellion. And they ignore Ezekiel 44:23 in the process.)
That whole chapter (Hebrews 7, and all the "Olde Testamant" references it contains!) is great example of what Kefa warned about in II Peter 3:15-16:
"...as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."
I agree...
No worries ... I just tried an alley-oop or an american football pass because you were already in the touchdown zone lolSorry, my mistake.
Obviously, it wasn't. Bur the amount of 'baggage' has been made clear by now, to obscure what SHOULD have been before, absent centuries of 'twisting'.
So this will be a bit more "rigourous."
I have always thought the the One True Master did a far better job of dealing with the "saved by grace" [alone!] issue than what Shaul/Paul arguably may have made too complicated. (Although, I don't blame him - II Peter 3:15-16, as I have oft noted, puts the blame squarely where it properly lies.)
"If you love Me, keep My commandments." (John 14:15)
The logic is simple, obvious (once you shed the baggage!) and irrefutable:
IF (you are 'saved by grace', and choose that free gift, because of what I have done for you) and therefore "love Me," He said...
THEN: What? Keep My commandments. (Which? All of 'em. Did He EVER say otherwise?!)
Uh, oh. See the order? You are Justified, or Earning, or Meriting - pick a word - Not ANYTHING. Nothing. Zero. Zip. Nada. After all, it was pure 'grace' that Genesis chapter 3 didn't end with "and He smote them....The End."
And just what did the tzadik Noach find? (He was the first use of that word in Scripture.)
It's just what that same guy, Paul, called your "reasonable service"* for what He has done, which was "unmerited favor."
QED.
Now, that is sufficient. But, since the baggage that so many carry (witness: "monogamy") is SO massive, let's try a logical contrast or two, just to bring it home.
Did He say, "If you keep My commands, THEN I will love YOU?" No.
Did He say, "If you keep My commands, THEN you will earn salvation?" No.
Did He say, "If you keep My commands, THEN you will be BLESSED." Actually, Yes.
Did He say, "If you prophesy - cast out demons - in the name of jesus, THEN You go to heaven. No. As a matter of fact, He said something QUITE different. (Matthew 7:21-23 again.)
Did He even say, "IF you say the Magic Prayer (which actually isn't even IN the Book)...THEN you never have to do anything I say ever again?" No to that one, too.
There's a pattern here. Hopefully it's clear.
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* Romans 12:1 And keep reading. How do we KNOW what is "good, acceptable, tamim, and His will?" Answer, He Wrote it down for us, 'changes NOT', and said His 'instruction' hasn't changed either.
Oh, and PS> Paul in that verse says our "reasonable service" sounds a LOT more "rigorous," even Olde Testament-y than just honoring His moedim or not eating bacon. Some perspective might be helpful.
Unfortunately yes, it is clear and it continues down the same road with the same errors repeated over and over again.
So I'll repeat the correction one last time. Galatians 2:14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?
And again, the only here who lives like a Jew is @IshChayil and he’s an actual Jew.
I seriously doubt it.
But at least that's typical. Keep repeating the Big Lie, maybe people will believe it.
Reminds me of this one, above:
No, He did NOT. Some (not all!) English translators put those words in His mouth. He without question used the word "torah".
Here's a reminder from Hosea 4:6 that FOLLOWS the part that gets the press:
"...because you have REJECTED KNOWLEDGE, I will reject you from being priests for me, and will also forget your children." Not exactly Mekchizedek.