I may have cracked the code here. Do you see all of the New Testament as being corrupted aside from Matthew? If so why not just be open about it?
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1 corinthians 9:19-23
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I may have cracked the code here. Do you see all of the New Testament as being corrupted aside from Matthew? If so why not just be open about it?
Also, if the term is used repeatedly throughout the Hebrew Scriptures, why is bothersome for The Messiah to use it?
No, just crappy translations. (And you really DON'T actually read these posts, do you? I've noted: Hebrews, Acts, John, II Peter, Romans, and others, from the Brit Chadash, JUST TODAY!)
See, there really are such things as "stupid questions." The term TORAH is the one used "throughout the Hebrew Scriptures," so OF COURSE the One Who Wrote it would use it.
If you've got a translation that obfuscates what those "Hebrew Scriptures" actually say...
...well, that should be obvious. It's why Paul praised the Bereans, who "searched out the Scriptures [you know, those HEBREW Scriptures...] for themselves, to see if these things be true."
If you'd been paying attention, you'd know I've quoted THAT too, here, before.
Enough of this. I've made this point consistently: Words matter. And if their meaning is "twisted" - the result is what Paul also warned about, "another jesus, whom we have NOT preached..."and he was obviously right to think a lot of people would be suckered in by it. "Itching ears," and so on...
I'm happy, and thankful, to be able to answer sincere questions from people honestly seeking, like the Bereans, His Truth. To be a 'tzadik' (righteous, with knowledge of His Word, as Written) is a good goal.
But snipes and "endless repetition" of BS don't make it any less 'tameh'.
Sadly this thread has now lost the balance it had earlier (one side is writing the majority of the posts and the vast majority of the words), and it is becoming highly repetitive from both sides. Unless anyone has any wholly new points to make, from this point you're probably all wasting your time.
I'd actually rather hear questions from those who are either NOT convinced, or are confused.
Hmmm... let's see what is written. John records these words; Εἰ περιτομὴν λαμβάνει ἄνθρωπος ἐν σαββάτῳ, ἵνα μὴ λυθῇ ὁ νόμος Μωσέως, ἐμοὶ χολᾶτε ὅτι ὅλον ἄνθρωπον ὑγιῆ ἐποίησα ἐν σαββάτῳ (John 7:23 MT). Based upon Scripture alone you are incorrect.
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I'm working on getting through all the posts and reading what has been quote in both Greek and current translations so it might take me a bit but I will get back to you. To me there is no more of an important topic so I appreciate the responses.
Since Berea was located in southwestern Macedonia these people would be speaking Greek, therefore the Scriptures they searched would most probably have been the Greek translation.
Your claim,
would be incorrect. Blessings
At this point I am inclined to agree.
Good idea
There is alot of pertinent information from the three first responses of @Mark C all the way through, covering the different perspectives, that anyone who prayerfully reads will be able to either conclusively make up their mind or come with new questions from a fresh perspective.
I am not trying to tell anyone how to suck eggs but please try to not read verses or phrases in isolation, understanding their context is vital.
I use the words of Christ as a starting point & the final arbiter, it helps alot with establishing context, as we are HIS disciples when we abide in HIS words.
Ultimately the key is to have the love of the truth.
I am happy to answer to any points that I have made.
Shalom Love and Blessings
@Mark C, on this specific point @frederick is correct. In this verse Yeshua explicitly refers to the Torah as the "nomos" of Moses. Is there any place where the word "torah" or a clear Greek equivalent is used by Yeshua, as you have claimed?
Yes they did...
Why is new covenant important? Because it replaced the old. Not modified, replaced. 'becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away". Because it makes clear we are not under old, which has vanished.
"New covenant" is everywhere. You cannot have a New Testamant theology without it.
And we do.
And for those who say Christ never spoke of any of this...
Did Christ speak as openly as Paul? No, instead He spoke in parables (for a reason) as in the one above.
Daniel 9:11
Heb 10:28
Those are but one of many instances where both the Old and New Testament scriptures use 'the law of moses', and no, they aren't mistranslations.
One judeizing teacher tells me 'new covenenant' isn't there. Another tells me 'law of moses' isn't there. It's all a 'who you going to believe me or your lying eyes' situation because they're teaching a false gospel that won't stand up to the light of scriptures.
There is one fascinating parallel between the giving of the law at Sinai and the new covenant given at the cross, well there a number of them, but here is one. After Sinai the children of israel then spent 40 years in the wilderness because that first generation could not enter in because of unbelief and only the generation who believed entered in. From the time The Messiah came and established the New Covenant to the time of the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem was about forty years. Which really makes a lot of passages in Hebrews stand out.
Hebrews 10:26-29 KJV
[26] “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, [27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. [28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: [29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?“
[ If we, through the sin of unbelief, refuse to enter into the rest given to us by Christ Jesus The Messiah then there is no more sacrifice for sin and we will be like those who died in the wilderness because of unbelief. ]
Hebrews 12:18-29 KJV
[18] “For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, [19] And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: [20] (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: [21] And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake) [22] But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, [23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, [24] And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. [25] See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: [26] Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. [27] And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. [28] Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: [29] For our God is a consuming fire.“
[ In 28 he speaks of serving God acceptably, and Then in chapter 13 he tells what that service is, notice what it IS and what it IS NOT. Verse 9 tells us what is not important and gives a warning about strange doctrines being attached to it. ]
Hebrews 13:1-21 KJV
[1] “Let brotherly love continue. [2] Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. [3] Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body. [4] Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. [5] Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. [6] So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me. [7] Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. [8] Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. [9] Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein. [10] We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. [11] For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. [12] Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. [13] Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. [14] For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come. [15] By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. [16] But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. [17] Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. [18] Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly. [19] But I beseech you the rather to do this, that I may be restored to you the sooner. [20] Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, [21] Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
Hebrews 10:26-29 KJV
[26] “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, [27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. [28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: [29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?“
[ If we, through the sin of unbelief, refuse to enter into the rest given to us by Christ Jesus The Messiah then there is no more sacrifice for sin and we will be like those who died in the wilderness because of unbelief. ]
Hebrews 12:18-29 KJV
[18] “For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, [19] And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: [20] (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: [21] And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake) [22] But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, [23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, [24] And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. [25] See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: [26] Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. [27] And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. [28] Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: [29] For our God is a consuming fire.“
[ In 28 he speaks of serving God acceptably, and Then in chapter 13 he tells what that service is, notice what it IS and what it IS NOT. Verse 9 tells us what is not important and gives a warning about strange doctrines being attached to it. ]
Hebrews 13:1-21 KJV
[1] “Let brotherly love continue. [2] Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. [3] Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body. [4] Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. [5] Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. [6] So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me. [7] Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. [8] Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. [9] Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein. [10] We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. [11] For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. [12] Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. [13] Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. [14] For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come. [15] By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. [16] But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. [17] Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. [18] Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly. [19] But I beseech you the rather to do this, that I may be restored to you the sooner. [20] Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, [21] Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
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Alright, if you want the deep dive I’ll give you the deep dive. I’m not sure why you would srtve such a schizophrenic, conflicted god, but since you do I’ll show you thf God I serve. It will have to be this weekend though. I owe your fellow traveler a whole thread too.
If the “deep dive” changes the entire thrust of Scripture and solves all of your hermeneutical problems, why didn’t you lead with it?
He wasn't speaking Greek! (And, no, He wasn't speaking English, either.) Honestly, Samuel, I let that one lie there because it fit your argument of not worth a response.
Is this not an assumption on your part?
One more time: The Hebrew word "torah" appears well over 200 times in the Hebrew "old" testament, almost always rendered "law" (even on occasion when the original word is plural, but that's another issue.) When TRANSLATED to Greek it is usually rendered nomos.
The word 'torah' as used in Scripture is, however, more INCLUSIVE than the English word "law", for multiple reasons. The better rendering, I have consistently contended, is "teaching and instruction," because when it is His "torah" it can include - I hope everyone is sitting down - not just "statutes, judgments, and commandments," (which He often spells out explicitly, using words like chukat, mishpatim, mitzvot) but also examples, precedents, and, yes, even parables. They are ALL "instruction."*
Now - the concept of 'conflation.' The same word may actually have more than one meaning. Uh-oh! Better have an understanding of CONTEXT.
The first five Books authored by Moses are sometimes called THE Torah (sometimes capitalized in English, but Hebrew doesn't have capital letters!) In Hebrew, that MAY become "Hatorah" (the Torah) or even - wait for it - "Torah of Moshe/Moses".
Context is even more important when multiple languages are introduced. ESPECIALLY when the word picked may not be a precise equivalent. The Greek 'nomos' is a perfect example.
And the problem isn't MERELY that "teaching and instruction" is a better translation of the Hebrew word "torah" in most cases than just substituting the English word "law".**
In both Greek and English, lots of things are called "law" (or 'nomos') that are NOT His 'Instruction."
"Law" CAN be whatever the "Powers That Be" CLAIM it is. Witness AmeriKa, 2023. Rome, 0 A.D. The Pharisees during that same time. The Roman Church for over 17 centuries thereafter. And just about every religious or political (but maybe that's redundant) totalitarian regime ever.
SOMETIMES, but not always, what men CALL 'law' (or 'nomos'!) that really ISN'T, according to YHVH at least, in whatever form) it MIGHT be called "your traditions," or "the traditions of men," or of 'the Pharisees,' but NOT ALWAYS. And understanding the context is thus vital.***
In a forum, teaching, or thread like this, I will always attempt to be consistent, and point out the proper word GIVEN THE CONTEXT. "Torah" is an excellent place to begin with that understanding.
But most Bible translations are not nearly so consistent. (There and now some exceptions that are getting there...)
Those who fail to recognize that translations THROUGH Greek, and then THROUGH into English that don't keep His "teaching and instruction" from being conflated with "man's tradition" - or WHATEVER some try to call "law" to replace His - are failing to "rightly divide the Word of Truth."
I hope that helps.
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* Some of the most fundamental aspects of the English Common Law are demonstrated by example in Genesis chapters 23 and 24, which include concepts of contract law (offer, acceptance, compensation, witnesses, first recorded land deed, etc) and agency, via the un-named 'good and faithful servant'. They are not given as statutes, judgments, or commandments, but precedents.
** And here I note an example I have frequently used, but NOT in this thread! In a live teaching, I joke that physicists have a better understanding of many words than lawyers do: The word "law" is a great example:
To a scientist, it means something we observe that is always, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, consistent and repeatable. We can run the test/experiment and EVERY SINGLE TIME, it works. Examples: GRAVITY, Newton's Second Law of Thermodynamics. Things that do NOT have that level of scientific confidence are called "theories". They SEEM to be true, but need more verification. Example: Einstein's Theory of Relativity. (BTW - yes, "evolution" is an exception. But it's politics, not 'science'.)
To a lawyer, "law" is something to be twisted to fit the circumstances, whatever it takes to "win". It no longer needs to be passed by a "legislature" and signed, or even be "constitutional" But I engage in a bit of sarcasm...
*** This is not only true with obvious words like 'torah'. "Elohim" is another. Context is ABSOLUTELY vital to understanding. The word is plural, and CAN mean "gods," or "mighty ones" - in a PAGAN context. But when it applies to YHVH alone - it is the One, True, Elohim - Singular!
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Re: He (the Torah Made Flesh) was almost certainly speaking Aramaic, or, when quoting Scripture, Hebrew.
But, yes, those are ALL 'assumptions'. Based on actual facts. Tiny, however, compared to assumptions I've seen above in this thread (like Paul saying things he did NOT regarding circumcision, for just one blatant example.)
He wasn't speaking Olde English, or Portuguese, or Klingon, either.
But, yes, those are ALL 'assumptions'. Based on actual facts. Tiny, however, compared to assumptions I've seen above in this thread (like Paul saying things he did NOT regarding circumcision, for just one blatant example.)
We’re supposed to override the biblical texts that we actually have, based on your assumption that Jesus was speaking Hebrew, that it was written down in Hebrew, then it was translated into Greek and the Hebrew text was lost to history? Evidence? Oceanfront property in Arizona, anyone interested?
Edit: The more I think about this the more disturbing it is. You want everyone here to hang their eternal destiny on your assumptions and wishfully thinking?! You talk about Christ’s Apostles as if you are their peer. Who do you think you are?
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