1 corinthians 9:19-23

[Mark C]

We’re supposed to override the biblical texts that we actually have...

No, you're not supposed to behave like blithering idiots and ignore whatever doesn't suit your churchianity baggage. Most people here recognize at least ONE of the Big Lies they've inherited from their 'fathers'.

And I've genuinely tried NOT to respond to divisive trolling. You got what you gave, but deserved worse.

I'm done politely answering asinine questions which are about posturing, not honest study.

Even "twisting the Scripture unto their own destruction" should have some credible limit. But, I guess not.

=================================================


Now: For those that are actually trying to "rightly divide the Word":

When young Yahushua was in the temple impressing the "rabbis" of His time...did He do a Latin Mass for them? Is is JUST POSSIBLE that the "Torah Made Flesh" Himself, who SOME here would suggest appeared in "pre-incarnate" form to everyone from Abraham and Yakov to David, might have been able to read and Write in His original Hebrew Language? Yes, and without question He spoke Aramaic. Did He perhaps speak Greek? (Actually, I don't doubt that He could probably have spoken English, if someone had asked Him.)

But He spoke to the masses in a language THEY could understand, and quoted the Scriptures to them in the language they knew, and that a guy named Paul had already memorized.

PS> Anybody here run into "KJV-only" types? I've actually talked to people who believe that when He spoke the Ten Commandments it was in the King's English. And, come to think of it, been asked the same "who do you think you are?" question.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

Now: For those that are actually trying to "rightly divide the Word":

When young Yahushua was in the temple impressing the "rabbis" of His time...did He do a Latin Mass for them? Is is JUST POSSIBLE that the "Torah Made Flesh" Himself, who SOME here would suggest appeared in "pre-incarnate" form to everyone from Abraham and Yakov to David, might have been able to read and Write in His original Hebrew Language? Yes, and without question He spoke Aramaic. Did He perhaps speak Greek? (Actually, I don't doubt that He could probably have spoken English, if someone had asked Him.)

That is not rightly dividing the Word of Truth, that is philosophy and vain deceit. Also, no one is arguing that Jesus didn’t speak Hebrew.

But He spoke to the masses in a language THEY could understand, and quoted the Scriptures to them in the language they knew, and that a guy named Paul had already memorized.

The masses living in that area during Christ’s earthly ministry spoke Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic among other things. The message of The Gospel was for the whole world and whether or not Jesus was speaking Hebrew or Greek God inspired the writers of the New Testament in the language that would reach the world.

You are claiming that the New Testament Scriptures were written in Hebrew, without evidence, and on top of that you’re claiming to know the precise wording of that original document that you nor anyone else has ever seen. You are attempting to deceive everyone here and lead them away from the Gospel of Christ.

 

[FollowingHim]

I must say @Mark C that I am surprised at the lack of documentary backing for your assertions here. You claimed as a fact that Yeshua used the word "torah", not "nomos" - and then when it is pointed out that the actual documented scripture has him saying "nomos", it turns out that your whole argument is that you personally assume (1) He was speaking Hebrew not Greek, (2) He used the word Torah, and (3) that word Torah was translated "nomos". Here we are flying assumption airlines.

Unless you can actually demonstrate that from documentary evidence, you are contradicting scripture.

Greek was the most common language at the time, it is entirely reasonable to believe Yeshua was speaking Greek at least some of the time, particularly given that when people happen to speak Hebrew this tends to be noted as something unusual (Yeshua on the cross, and Paul speaking to a Jewish audience come to mind). There's also a good chance He was speaking Hebrew or Aramaic on occasion and these words have been translated into Greek. But we have no idea when He spoke Greek and the words are written directly, or when He spoke another language and they were translated for the Gospels. We cannot assume one of these and base our theology on it, all we have are the scriptures we have. And I'd believe the words of the Greek scriptures long before I'd believe the assumptions of a man 2000 years later.

 

[The Revolting Man]

If the “deep dive” changes the entire thrust of Scripture and solves all of your hermeneutical problems, why didn’t you lead with it?

Because you already used that tact with the new covenant. I’m going to have to stick to simple explanations and literal interpretations.

 

[Mark C]

You are claiming that the New Testament Scriptures were written in Hebrew,

I did NOT. I said that the things taught and spoken were based on Scripture Written in Hebrew (as EVERY Torah scroll today STILL IS) and that when He quoted Himself, as Author of that Word, it was in Hebrew.

The Septuagint was TRANSLATED from Hebrew. Did they do a good job? That's been argued for centuries. But there's no question what the original language was. And when Paul - or anyone else -QUOTES Scripture, we can test by checking against primary source material.

Separate topic: most 'scholars' acknowledge that those who penned the gospels (based on grammar, usage, idioms) were native Hebrew/Aramaic speakers.

I must say @Mark C that I am surprised at the lack of documentary backing for your assertions here.

I've been on this forum for longer than you, even, Samuel, and have made this point for longer than anyone here (with one or two notable exceptions ) can probably remember. But those posts are still (I strongly suspect) in the archives. My point here was NOT to argue what should in fact be obvious.

It was in fact to, since this threat had,

becoming highly repetitive from both sides...

only add

...wholly new points to make...

because otherwise:

from this point you're probably all wasting your time.

THAT seems increasingly undeniable. But, thankfully, hopefully, not with EVERYONE.

===========================================

I have, in fact, already referenced Nehemia Gordon's work, "

The Hebrew Yeshua Vs. the Greek Jesus:​

New Light on the Seat of Moses from Shem-Tov's Hebrew Matthew"​

and the fact that it began with a look at Matthew 23:2 from a number of ancient texts in archives in Israel, including what is called "Shem-Tov's Hebrew Matthew."

That work, and later Hebrew and Aramaic renderings of the text of Matthew (which are the primary ones which survive) are an excellent way to compare texts. There are Aramaic versions as well, and George Howard's Hebrew Book of Matthew is another I consult frequently.

ALL of that is beyond the scope of what sure looks like "trolling" here. And it's pretty clear that those who genuinely want to do their own study (and are, again, as always, more than welcome to write, or listen to teachings I have done and made available on line for at least a dozen years at this point, in FAR more depth than a tit-for-tat thread will allow)...
...will do so.

Quite frankly, I didn't see that "LAW is done-away-with" types even addressing the SIMPLE, OBVIOUS, UNDENIABLE points that I made from English renderings that were, no argument, translated from Greek. Such as: Matthew 5:17-19, Matthew 7:13-14, then through 21-23, John 5:46-47, John 14:15, Luke 6:46, and the whole chapters of Matthew 23 and Mark 7.

The Real POINT remains: "Law" is a CRAPPY way to translate the Hebrew word "torah" into English. And whether it got that way THROUGH another language as an intermediary or not isn't the main issue. Obfuscation, and conflation, are.

IF you don't know the meaning of the words, you can't "rightly divide" His Word. In any language.

EVEN SO, there is (and here I repeat, because it seems very necessary) a "razor" that some just plain come unglued about, because it's a "doctrine-of-man killer":

Who is the Author? Who is the Master? Who is Elohim? Who is the Torah-Made-Flesh? And Who is the final arbiter of His Word?

Is it Yahushua? Or is it "another jesus, whom we have not preached?"

We cannot assume one of these and base our theology on it, all we have are the scriptures we have. And I'd believe the words of the Greek scriptures long before I'd believe the assumptions of a man 2000 years later.

You don't have to believe ANY man!!!!!!!

All you have to do is ask, Who is the Real Authority? And - in ANY LANGUAGE you have access to, REGARDLESS of what you may or may not believe He spoke it in - was He telling the Truth? Or not?

If He said He wasn't changing ANY of it - zip, zero, nada, aka "not one yod or tiddle" - so long as "heaven and earth" still exist...
...Who do you believe?

There's a LOT more - much, but hardly all, in this thread above. I didn't even touch the "Old Testament" proof texts that would DISQUALIFY "another jesus," from being any kind of Messiah, if that guy "did away with" His "torah" in any way. See the whole chapter of Deuteronomy 13. ANY decent Jewish tzadik can show you why it's an absolute "non-starter." (And, ironically - I can pretty much GUARANTEE you that those folks in Berea would've asked about THAT, whether it got recorded in Greek or not.)

The simple razor is "contradiction." THAT is what "sealed the deal" for me, long ago. I rejected what I call the "Whore Church" (and so does He - see our faves, Jeremiah 3, and Ezekiel 23!) for exactly that reason. If His Word is self-contradictory: It's either FALSE, or somebody screwed SOMETHING up.

There's an article on my website entitled, "Is Paul a TARE?" that I wrote years ago, after a long discussion where a friend pointed out that those "contradictions" with that guy's letters PROVED he must be lying. I don't believe that - now. But, the only way to disprove the logic is what I have advocated here: a bad translation, taken out of context. Else, Paul really is a "tare":

Is Paul a TARE? | Come out of her, My people…

Those who claim "jesus" - even in the tiniest part - "did away with" His own Word (call it whatever you want, but He Wrote it!) have a real problem.

It does not require a trip to the Vatican Library basement to show what any honest Bible student, aka "tzadik," will one day have to wrestle with:

If there's an obvious, undeniable, in-yer-face, CONTRADICTION in Scripture: guess Who's problem it's NOT?

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

No, He did NOT. Some (not all!) English translators put those words in His mouth. He without question used the word "torah".

You just lied to us about the words of our Messiah. This wasn’t just careless handling of God’s words, it was a lie. You are not to be trusted with the handling of God’s Holy Scriptures.

“Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.” Proverbs 30:5-6

 

[rgmann]

"A learned fool is more of a fool than an ignorant fool." —Molière

 

[Mark C]

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

 

[rockfox]

In both Greek and English, lots of things are called "law" (or 'nomos') that are NOT His 'Instruction."

"Law" CAN be whatever the "Powers That Be" CLAIM it is. Witness AmeriKa, 2023. Rome, 0 A.D. The Pharisees during that same time. The Roman Church for over 17 centuries thereafter. And just about every religious or political (but maybe that's redundant) totalitarian regime ever.

SOMETIMES, but not always, what men CALL 'law' (or 'nomos'!) that really ISN'T, according to YHVH at least, in whatever form) it MIGHT be called "your traditions," or "the traditions of men," or of 'the Pharisees,' but NOT ALWAYS. And understanding the context is thus vital.***

This is mere slight of hand to try and waive off inconvenient passages and get people lost in the weeds. It sounds intelligent but it's just obfuscation.

I'm reading Galatians 3 and it uses nomos and it is clearly referring to the law of Moses. Also says...

For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ. There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.

Which contradicts some other false claims made here by others.

 

[Mark C]

This is mere slight of hand to try and waive off inconvenient passages and get people lost in the weeds. It sounds intelligent but it's just obfuscation.

I'm reading Galatians 3 and it uses nomos and it is clearly referring to the law of Moses...

I sure wish people who have ALREADY MADE up their minds would just read for comprehension.

I NEVER said it doesn't!!!!!!!! That is what the word "conflation" means!!!!!! (But it's still BETTER rendered "Torah of Moshe.")

SOMETIMES 'nomos' means something else: like "law" - but of men, tradition, the Pharisees, nowadays - Big Brother's "law" - which, SURPISE! - often has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the 'nomos of the land'. In those cases you MUST understand the CONTEXT to know WHICH meaning applies!

Get it? This kind of trolling adds nothing whatsoever to a thread that had descended into (no polite term, hmm) before the smoke grenades were released. I say again: those who are truly trying to "rightly divide the word" should know the meanings of them.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

False teachers have to drive a wedge between you and the Scriptures in order to teach their false theology. Even a cursory read of the New Testament eviscerates mark’s teachings, so he has to convince you that the Bible you hold in your hands is corrupted. Once he has successfully made you doubt Scripture, then he can tell you about the “real scriptures” that he hypothesizes must have said the complete opposite of what Scripture actually says. Don’t fall for the scam. Your eternal destiny hangs in the balance. If you have a good translation NKJV, ESV, NASB, KJV, or a number of others, even if you only speak English, you will have a very accurate understanding of the original text. Comparing translations is almost always better then looking up a specific Greek or Hebrew word to find the meaning, because the meaning of a particular word in a sentence can be completely changed by context and differences in languages. Be watchful of individuals who claim to know and speak the original biblical languages, make sure they are trustworthy and truly knowledgeable about the topic before giving any weight to their translation work. Bible translations are heavily scrutinized by linguists around the world making them have to be very accurate or they get called out. Trust your Bible and compare translations to help understand the meaning. And READ IT, so that you will not be blown to and fro by every wind of doctrine.

 

[NVIII]

I sure wish people who have ALREADY MADE up their minds would just read for comprehension.

I NEVER said it doesn't!!!!!!!! That is what the word "conflation" means!!!!!! (But it's still BETTER rendered "Torah of Moshe.")

SOMETIMES 'nomos' means something else: like "law" - but of men, tradition, the Pharisees, nowadays - Big Brother's "law" - which, SURPISE! - often has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the 'nomos of the land'. In those cases you MUST understand the CONTEXT to know WHICH meaning applies!

Get it? This kind of trolling adds nothing whatsoever to a thread that had descended into (no polite term, hmm) before the smoke grenades were released. I say again: those who are truly trying to "rightly divide the word" should know the meanings of them.

The truth doesn't mind being questioned, Mark. If you consider yourself strong in the Word, then bear with the failings of those you think are weak, and not to please yourself. Have patience, remembering your own weakness, and lift them up with love. Surely if God has given you conviction to minister He will also give you the right words in the moment as He does to all His servants who He calls to minister. Just sow the seed and don't worry about where it falls. If your words are of the Holy Spirit, then they will not return void. So don't worry whether or not you see results. Sometimes one man sows and another reaps. But each answers to the same Master.

 

[Children of God]

False teachers have to drive a wedge between you and the Scriptures in order to teach their false theology. Even a cursory read of the New Testament eviscerates mark’s teachings, so he has to convince you that the Bible you hold in your hands is corrupted. Once he has successfully made you doubt Scripture, then he can tell you about the “real scriptures” that he hypothesizes must have said the complete opposite of what Scripture actually says. Don’t fall for the scam. Your eternal destiny hangs in the balance. If you have a good translation NKJV, ESV, NASB, KJV, or a number of others, even if you only speak English, you will have a very accurate understanding of the original text. Comparing translations is almost always better then looking up a specific Greek or Hebrew word to find the meaning, because the meaning of a particular word in a sentence can be completely changed by context and differences in languages. Be watchful of individuals who claim to know and speak the original biblical languages, make sure they are trustworthy and truly knowledgeable about the topic before giving any weight to their translation work. Bible translations are heavily scrutinized by linguists around the world making them have to be very accurate or they get called out. Trust your Bible and compare translations to help understand the meaning. And READ IT, so that you will not be blown to and fro by every wind of doctrine.

I kind of tend to agree with your statement, and yes there's a however, we know that when you translate you always have a context to your own translation, a background, history, upbringing etc. I think it's nearly impossible to enter into a translation without some bias. And since the cultural most of have been placed into or grown up with has western with a heavy influence from pagans and controlling organizations, aka catholics, I find looking at the context of the words in the bible a very important starting point. I can't even begin to debate and won't try with any of you. All I can say is that there is enough statements from Christ himself that make many think we are called to do more than just faith but also have obedience to the foundational guidelines Yah set up in the beginning. As Jesus even said a house divide will quickly crumble (paraphrased). So even Jesus' house wouldn't divide itself from Yahs. I pray this discussion leads for a clear understanding for all, including myself, as we look at his word. I couldn't agree more that it needs to come from Love and not attacks. Shalom

 

[Mark C]

The truth doesn't mind being questioned, Mark.

Thanks, and appreciated. But, several days back, it was pointed out that there are honest questions, and there is...something else.

I have always made time for those who honestly seek His Truth, and will continue. I have sought since then to respond to queries which have might have almost ANY value to those still seeking to 'be like the Bereans.'

But, as a decidedly not-Biblical saying goes, 'Never try to teach a pig to sing. It annoys the pig, and just wastes your time.'

 

[Children of God]

What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,
Romans 9:30‭-‬32 ESV

I think this is a critical passage to this discussion. It says they didn't achieve righteousness because they didn't pursue it by faith. Not that they didn't achieve it by pursuing the law. I've recently found several passages where Christ directs people to offer their gift at the alter.

And Jesus said to him, “See that you say nothing to anyone, but go, show yourself to the priest and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a proof to them.”
Matthew 8:4 ESV

So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you,
Matthew 5:23 ESV

And even Jesus directs them to follow the Law of Moses and or implications of being lawless.

“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Matthew 7:12 ESV

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Matthew 5:17 ESV

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Matthew 7:21‭-‬23 ESV

How could Christ direct his followers and those around him to follow the Law only to shortly after his death and resurrection tell them ok now you don't need to listen to what I said before? That would definitely be a divided house.

 

[The Revolting Man]

What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,
Romans 9:30‭-‬32 ESV

I think this is a critical passage to this discussion. It says they didn't achieve righteousness because they didn't pursue it by faith. Not that they didn't achieve it by pursuing the law. I've recently found several passages where Christ directs people to offer their gift at the alter.

And Jesus said to him, “See that you say nothing to anyone, but go, show yourself to the priest and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a proof to them.”
Matthew 8:4 ESV

So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you,
Matthew 5:23 ESV

And even Jesus directs them to follow the Law of Moses and or implications of being lawless.

“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Matthew 7:12 ESV

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Matthew 5:17 ESV

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Matthew 7:21‭-‬23 ESV

How could Christ direct his followers and those around him to follow the Law only to shortly after his death and resurrection tell them ok now you don't need to listen to what I said before? That would definitely be a divided house.

One of the best posts ever made on the topic. I am ashamed of myself that I have never seen the significance of Romans 9:30-32 before. Thank you!

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

How could Christ direct his followers and those around him to follow the Law only to shortly after his death and resurrection tell them ok now you don't need to listen to what I said before? That would definitely be a divided house.

Jesus was a Jew living under the old covenant and fulfilling the old covenant and He directed His teaching at people who were also under the old covenant at that time. We have to take into account when and who the directives are for. For instance in Matthew 10:5-6 Jesus commands his disciples not to go to the gentiles nor to enter a city of the Samaritans but only to the lost sheep of Israel. After His resurrection He commanded them to preach in Judea, Samaria, and the ends of the earth. The people he gave those specific commands to where Hebrews under the Sinai covenant. It was for a specific time and a specific covenant.

And Jesus said to him, “See that you say nothing to anyone, but go, show yourself to the priest and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a proof to them.”
Matthew 8:4 ESV

So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you,
Matthew 5:23 ESV

And even Jesus directs them to follow the Law of Moses and or implications of being lawless.

If this is a command to you, how would you obey these specific commands?

What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,
Romans 9:30‭-‬32 ESV

5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 11:5-6 | ESV

[ If we as believers are required to keep the law of Moses and if we do not keep it then we are lawless, then salvation is by works.]

“What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,and whose sins are covered;8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.” 9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.The Promise Realized Through Faith13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all“

Romans 4:1-16 | ESV

 

[JudahYAHites]

Jesus was a Jew living under the old covenant and fulfilling the old covenant and He directed His teaching at people who were also under the old covenant at that time. We have to take into account when and who the directives are for. For instance in Matthew 10:5-6 Jesus commands his disciples not to go to the gentiles nor to enter a city of the Samaritans but only to the lost sheep of Israel. After His resurrection He commanded them to preach in Judea, Samaria, and the ends of the earth. The people he gave those specific commands to where Hebrews under the Sinai covenant. It was for a specific time and a specific covenant.



If this is a command to you, how would you obey these specific commands?




5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 11:5-6 | ESV

[ If we as believers are required to keep the law of Moses and if we do not keep it then we are lawless, then salvation is by works.]

“What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,and whose sins are covered;8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.” 9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.The Promise Realized Through Faith13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all“

Romans 4:1-16 | ESV

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen. [Mat 28:18-20 KJV]

And Jesus said to him, “See that you say nothing to anyone, but go, show yourself to the priest and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a proof to them.”
Matthew 8:4 ESV

So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you,
Matthew 5:23 ESV

And even Jesus directs them to follow the Law of Moses and or implications of being lawless.

“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Matthew 7:12 ESV

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Matthew 5:17 ESV

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Matthew 7:21‭-‬23 ESV

How could Christ direct his followers and those around him to follow the Law only to shortly after his death and resurrection tell them ok now you don't need to listen to what I said before? That would definitely be a divided house.

iniquity = lawlessness, so, what does iniquity mean?

scriptural answers because scripture interprets scripture.

 

[Children of God]

Jesus was a Jew living under the old covenant and fulfilling the old covenant and He directed His teaching at people who were also under the old covenant at that time. We have to take into account when and who the directives are for. For instance in Matthew 10:5-6 Jesus commands his disciples not to go to the gentiles nor to enter a city of the Samaritans but only to the lost sheep of Israel. After His resurrection He commanded them to preach in Judea, Samaria, and the ends of the earth. The people he gave those specific commands to where Hebrews under the Sinai covenant. It was for a specific time and a specific covenant.



If this is a command to you, how would you obey these specific commands?




5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 11:5-6 | ESV

[ If we as believers are required to keep the law of Moses and if we do not keep it then we are lawless, then salvation is by works.]

“What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,and whose sins are covered;8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.” 9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.The Promise Realized Through Faith13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all“

Romans 4:1-16 | ESV

I may read this different than you do. I read everything you sent as we are saved by faith. If that's what you're making as your point I concur. The scripture is clear whether in the old or new Testament. We gain nothing by our own works. However through faith in God we respond with doing his will. You could consider that works but not that they earn you righteousness. For even as Abraham who did works he was righteous due to his faith in God. If you do works to save yourself you are dead. If you do works to be obedient you have the faith in the one that gives you righteousness and has commanded you to follow his will.

 

[steve]

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen. [Mat 28:18-20 KJV]




iniquity = lawlessness, so, what does iniquity mean?

scriptural answers because scripture interprets scripture.

I don’t see how anyone can explain their way past this verse.
He never commanded the things that are attributed to Paul.