Abortion

[paterfamilias]

The risk to mom thing is a strawman that until recently, almost nobody bothered to set alight. It sounds reasonable to moderate non political types thst really don't want to engage in the topic or think in any depth.
Those situations are so uncommon with current medical tech as to benear statistically zero.

That said, I am against it in broad terms.

One of the things that sickens me that I don't see talked about much is the sort of women that will use a pregnancy and threat of abortion to manipulate a man or to intentionally hurt him.
I have been shocked at how many guys have that sort of story to tell. Sends literal shivers up my spine and goose flesh on my arms to imagine.

 

[theleastofthese]

The majority of pro-choice people spew outright lies to justify abortions.

One of the most disturbing facts to me is that 60% of women who have abortions are already mothers. Imagine knowing the joy of having a child and choosing to murder another.

The highest percentage of women getting abortions are aged 25–29, at (29%). The lowest are teens at 9%; therefore, this "poor teenage girls" rhetoric is nonsense. The majority of women having abortions are well into their 20s and 30s, old enough to know better and old enough to know how to prevent a pregnancy or find a decent man to marry.

Lack of education is another exaggeration. The majority of women who have abortions are college-educated, followed by those who have completed high school, and the least number of women getting abortions are high school dropouts (9%).

More than half of these women are double above the poverty line.

 

[Mark C]

Nice comment, but this is the only place I'd disagree:

Lack of education is another exaggeration. The majority of women who have abortions are college-educated,

...propagandized,

followed by those who have completed high school,

Publik Cesspool Indoctrinashun (most can't evun spel corruckly)

and the least number of women getting abortions are high school dropouts (9%).

I.e., they got out before the dumbing-down became terminal. Not just for them...

I only wish that was mere sarcasm. But a look at the world today makes it pretty hard to deny that the Founders were, almost universally, FAR better "educated" than what Big Brother's Ministry of Truth has been able to accomplish.

 

[theleastofthese]

...propagandized,

You're 100% correct!

 

[Keith Martin]

One of the things that sickens me that I don't see talked about much is the sort of women that will use a pregnancy and threat of abortion to manipulate a man or to intentionally hurt him.
I have been shocked at how many guys have that sort of story to tell. Sends literal shivers up my spine and goose flesh on my arms to imagine.

Amen.

In my previous career as a university student affairs administrator, I was also at first shocked to learn how common it is for college females to utilize abortion as their only form of birth control, all in a perverse effort to remain in denial about their desire to be sexually active. I was once asked to counsel a young woman who was about to have her 7th abortion; she was in the first semester of her junior year. Her alcoholism also played a significant role in her 'logic.'

 

[Keith Martin]

The majority of pro-choice people spew outright lies to justify abortions.

One of the most disturbing facts to me is that 60% of women who have abortions are already mothers. Imagine knowing the joy of having a child and choosing to murder another.

The highest percentage of women getting abortions are aged 25–29, at (29%). The lowest are teens at 9%; therefore, this "poor teenage girls" rhetoric is nonsense. The majority of women having abortions are well into their 20s and 30s, old enough to know better and old enough to know how to prevent a pregnancy or find a decent man to marry.

Lack of education is another exaggeration. The majority of women who have abortions are college-educated, followed by those who have completed high school, and the least number of women getting abortions are high school dropouts (9%).

More than half of these women are double above the poverty line.

A couple decades ago, it was still the case that the most likely seeker of an abortion was a woman in college. The average age has increased because that generation took their acceptance and promotion of abortion out into their lives. It's now thoroughly socially-acceptable. Some women even brag about it, and even when they sustain being upset about what they've done, the worse sin is saying anything to them that even might glancingly "make them feel shame."

We have removed shame as an appropriate deterrent for this and many other behaviors.

 

[paterfamilias]

a young woman who was about to have her 7th abortion

 

[NBTX11]

What would y'all do with an ectopic pregnancy that was developing outside of the uterus, and had no chance of survival on it's own?

I am not an expert on this topic, just wanted to hear general thoughts.

 

[Keith Martin]

What would y'all do with an ectopic pregnancy that was developing outside of the uterus, and had no chance of survival on it's own?

I am not an expert on this topic, just wanted to hear general thoughts.

Good question. Medically-speaking, removal of an ectopic pregnancy is not an abortion. Perhaps someday we'll have the capability to ensure survival by outside means, but ectopic pregnancy is generally life-threatening to the woman and has almost no chance of reaching term before it would risk killing the mother.

I should clarify an omission in my post from last night:

Let me be clear about something: I'm pro-life to the extent that I firmly believe any woman who contracts for one for any other reason than prosecuted rape or incest should be prosecuted. In a system that gives women this choice, women are not victims.

I also believe some circumstances in which the life of a mother is certain to be lost and the fetus isn't developed to the point of near-certainty of survival would also justify treating abortion as a non-prosecutable offense.

What is pure doublespeak is the phrase, "except in the case of danger to the health of the mother." 'Health' has been legally defined now for many decades as including 'mental health,' so 'danger to the health of the mother' is easily translated as justifying abortion when the mother feels like she would emotionally suffer if she had to allow her gestating child to make it to individual life. It's psychobabble that justifies killing a human being because he or she would be inconvenient to the mother.

Easily the majority of abortions performed in America are because the child would be inconvenient to the mother and/or father.

 

[Mark C]

We have removed shame as an appropriate deterrent for this and many other behaviors.

Now they have PRIDE, and even fly flags, for things that are not only deserving of shame, but are called outright "abomination" in that Book they so hate.

 

[NBTX11]

Medically-speaking, removal of an ectopic pregnancy is not an abortion.

Why not? It's still the termination of a live pregnancy, whether by drugs, or surgery. Granted, one that may result in the death of the mother.

 

[Mark C]

I also believe some circumstances in which the life of a mother is certain to be lost and the fetus isn't developed to the point of near-certainty of survival would also justify treating abortion as a non-prosecutable offense.

"Choose life" (Deuteronomy 30:15-19) is still the Biblical imperative. It just requires a bit of knowledge, study, compassion, understanding...even PRAYER, to obey.

 

[paterfamilias]

What would y'all do with an ectopic pregnancy that was developing outside of the uterus, and had no chance of survival on it's own?

I am not an expert on this topic, just wanted to hear general thoughts.

Wouldn't classify it as a pregnancy.
When we can move it and implant it successfully into the uterus where it could potentially have a shot at becoming a person, then it is an entirely different equation.

 

[Keith Martin]

Why not? It's still the termination of a live pregnancy, whether by drugs, or surgery. Granted, one that may result in the death of the mother.

"Choose life" (Deuteronomy 30:15-19) is still the Biblical imperative. It just requires a bit of knowledge, study, compassion, understanding...even PRAYER, to obey.

When we can move it and implant it successfully into the uterus where it could potentially have a shot at becoming a person, then it is an entirely different equation.

It's when we put choosing life together with an ectopic pregnancy that can't (as most can't) be moved to the uterus, it's not an abortion because the child has almost no potential to survive, but not removing it will result in one of two outcomes:

• Mother ultimately dies along with fetus; or
• Mother may live but fetus still dies.

Therefore, we choose the high likelihood of mother living by removing the ectopic pregnancy as early as possible.

Choosing to call it an abortion (which a large proportion of pro-life people will autistically insist is also murder) will only increase the likelihood that innocent mothers will choose fantasy over life and risk near-certain death for themselves even though the end result either way is almost certainly death for their unborn child.

 

[NBTX11]

It's when we put choosing life together with an ectopic pregnancy that can't (as most can't) be moved to the uterus, it's not an abortion because the child has almost no potential to survive, but not removing it will result in one of two outcomes:

• Mother ultimately dies along with fetus; or
• Mother may live but fetus still dies.

Therefore, we choose the high likelihood of mother living by removing the ectopic pregnancy as early as possible.

Choosing to call it an abortion (which a large proportion of pro-life people will autistically insist is also murder) will only increase the likelihood that innocent mothers will choose fantasy over life and risk near-certain death for themselves even though the end result either way is almost certainly death for their unborn child.

All those arguments are great, but it’s still the termination of a human life.

 

[steve]

All those arguments are great, but it’s still the termination of a human life.

True
What would you do in that situation?

 

[NBTX11]

True
What would you do in that situation?

I don't know. Thankfully, I have never been placed in that situation and likely never will.

I would need more information such as how likely is it that mom would die. What could be done to save her if fallopian tubes exploded. How much time would she have to receive care, etc.

Even then, it would be a gut wrenching decision.

 

[Keith Martin]

I don't know. Thankfully, I have never been placed in that situation and likely never will.

I would need more information such as how likely is it that mom would die. What could be done to save her if fallopian tubes exploded. How much time would she have to receive care, etc.

Even then, it would be a gut wrenching decision.

1. I formerly held the same position but then listened to a reasonable voice encouraging me to recognize that casting aspersions in advance of creating a solution boils down to virtue signaling: condemning others with no greater purpose than to puff up myself; and
2. It's also more likely to lose hearts and minds than to sway them toward one's point of view.

Just as a mental exercise for anyone reading this: hearken back to the time when you first knew in your bones that you couldn't stomach abortion. What did that for you? What was the tipping point?

Was it disgust that mothers end ectopic pregnancies?

Was it disgust about young girls terminating pregnancies initiated by rapes committed by their uncles?

Or was it some demonstration of utterly-callous disregard for the sanctity of human life?

 

[NVIII's Babe]

I don't know. Thankfully, I have never been placed in that situation and likely never will.

I would need more information such as how likely is it that mom would die. What could be done to save her if fallopian tubes exploded. How much time would she have to receive care, etc.

Even then, it would be a gut wrenching decision.

90% of ectopic pregnancies implant in the fallopian tube. Most of those, the pregnancy miscarries before reaching a size that would rupture the tube (12-14-ish weeks). Those that do not spontaneously abort, but continue to grow, will rupture the tube, and that very likely will cause internal hemorrhaging and be a major medical emergency. If symptoms are noticed, emergency care is given (it helps if the woman already knew she was pregnant when going into the ER with said symptoms to reduce diagnostic times), surgery is performed, blood is transfused (almost always necessary, and carries its own risks), she may survive. Most women with ectopic pregnancy have no signs of it until the rupture happens, especially if they did not receive an early ultrasound, but there are a few early warning signs that a pregnancy may be ectopic.

Ruptured tube is the leading cause of first-trimester death of the mother (I don't suppose that counts deaths related to elective abortions, but I don't know for sure). It's rare to die from it now because early ultrasound and removal of the tissue is standard practice.

In the other 10% of cases, the pregnancy implants elsewhere in the body, like on the bowel or liver or other blood-rich organ. Those cases can theoretically survive, but it is still quite dangerous. I mean, consider the likely medical issues from a watermelon-sized tumor on the bowel or liver.

I'm just sharing all of this as the currently accepted science. I don't have personal experience with an ectopic pregnancy and pray I never do. I am extremely pro-life. If I faced an ectopic pregnancy, I would submit to my husband's judgment over it, as with anything else, and pray he would seek and follow God and trust Him with the lives of the unborn baby and his wife.

 

[NVIII]

True
What would you do in that situation?

The riddle of a starving family and the last can of food is somewhat applicable here. The decision is only difficult if emotions are leading.