Abortion

[MemeFan]

I don't know. Thankfully, I have never been placed in that situation and likely never will.

I would need more information such as how likely is it that mom would die. What could be done to save her if fallopian tubes exploded. How much time would she have to receive care, etc.

Even then, it would be a gut wrenching decision.

We only have duty to save humans as much as it in our power. In other words: as much as practicable.

No point in getting rescue team to need rescue.

If you did all you could, you have done your duty.

Since ectopic pregnancy is practically death sentence for mother and we can't do nothing for baby, only reasonable choice is to save mother. This is only we could do. Baby is, sorry to say, Lord's problem.

 

[FollowingHim]

Since ectopic pregnancy is practically death sentence for mother and we can't do nothing for baby, only reasonable choice is to save mother. This is only we could do.

I don't think that is entirely accurate. Embryo transplant is a very well understood science, it's even used extensively in animal breeding. So technically speaking it should be possible to save an ectopic pregnancy by transplanting the embryo to the uterus or to another woman's uterus. Or at least attempt to do so (it may well fail).

It has even been done before on at least two medically documented occasions, one as far back as 1917. But it has never been studied in detail to design procedures or determine the success rate etc. I strongly suspect it has not been studied in depth simply because, if it is impossible, then we have a clear case when abortion is obviously the only choice, and that has great value in acclimatising the public to the idea of abortion. Removing this would weaken pro-abortion arguments substantially. Medical research is largely funded by governments and drug companies, both of which profit from or support the status quo, so would not fund such research. So, since it has not been studied in depth, the default assumption that it is impossible remains a medical "fact".

If this is investigated properly, and it is found to be possible to at least attempt to save both mother and baby in that situation, that would greatly alter the logic around the permissibility of abortion in this situation.

 

[MemeFan]

Technically I don't think that is entirely accurate. Embryo transplant is a very well understood science, it's even used extensively in animal breeding. So technically speaking it should be possible to save an ectopic pregnancy by transplanting the embryo to the uterus or to another woman's uterus. Or at least attempt to do so (it may well fail). I wonder if anyone has actually tried that?

So if it is found to be possible to at least attempt to save both mother and baby in that situation, does that change the logic around whether abortion is permissible then?

Correct.

Although, this opens additional questions?

Willigness of surrogate mother, will baby be OK when she grows up?

 

[FollowingHim]

Correct.

Although, this opens additional questions?

Willigness of surrogate mother, will baby be OK when she grows up?

Not a question at all if it is possible to transplant from the fallopian tube into the womb of the same woman.

 

[MemeFan]

Not a question at all if it is possible to transplant from the fallopian tube into the womb of the same woman.

You are thinking only about tehnical possibility.

What about free will of surrogate mother? You need someone willing to accept transplant. What if nobody is willing to accept? Choose surrogate by lootery? Let transplant die?

Again, just because something is possible doesn't mean it should be done.

 

[FollowingHim]

You did not read my post. I am not talking about a surrogate mother at all. I am talking about moving the embryo from the fallopian tube to the uterus of one woman. There is only one woman - the mother. No surrogate.

 

[MemeFan]

You did not read my post. I am not talking about a surrogate mother at all. I am talking about moving the embryo from the fallopian tube to the uterus of one woman. There is only one woman - the mother. No surrogate.

Aha. Thanks on correction.

Makes more sense.

 

[Keith Martin]

I don't think that is entirely accurate. Embryo transplant is a very well understood science, it's even used extensively in animal breeding. So technically speaking it should be possible to save an ectopic pregnancy by transplanting the embryo to the uterus or to another woman's uterus. Or at least attempt to do so (it may well fail).

It has even been done before on at least two medically documented occasions, one as far back as 1917. But it has never been studied in detail to design procedures or determine the success rate etc. I strongly suspect it has not been studied in depth simply because, if it is impossible, then we have a clear case when abortion is obviously the only choice, and that has great value in acclimatising the public to the idea of abortion. Removing this would weaken pro-abortion arguments substantially. Medical research is largely funded by governments and drug companies, both of which profit from or support the status quo, so would not fund such research. So, since it has not been studied in depth, the default assumption that it is impossible remains a medical "fact".

If this is investigated properly, and it is found to be possible to at least attempt to save both mother and baby in that situation, that would greatly alter the logic around the permissibility of abortion in this situation.

The fly in your ointment is that you're still talking about the exception to the rule and expecting every woman to be willing to undergo the increased risks associated with such extensive surgery would require an entirely submissive female population.

Good luck with that in the context of a culture in which even the vast majority of 'conservative' men are subservient to their women.

 

[Joleneakamama]

Since ectopic pregnancy is practically death sentence for mother

We don’t really know that. Perhaps there are cases where the pain and bleeding were not so severe, and the women stayed home and recovered. Those would be undiagnosed and not in the statistics, the statistics only showing the severe cases where intervention was needed.
I mention this because my husband has a neice who went through a painful episode believed to have been an ectopic pregnancy. She stayed home and recovered.

 

[FollowingHim]

We don’t really know that. Perhaps there are cases where the pain and bleeding were not so severe, and the women stayed home and recovered. Those would be undiagnosed and not in the statistics, the statistics only showing the severe cases where intervention was needed.
I mention this because my husband has a neice who went through a painful episode believed to have been an ectopic pregnancy. She stayed home and recovered.

I recall a testimony from the wife of the first professional rider of the Britten racing motorcycle, which I heard in a church years ago. She was diagnosed with an ectopic pregnancy, and told to get an abortion and lie down quietly in the meantime. They instead prayed heavily and attended a ragey worship service where she was up and active. Next scan showed that the baby had moved to the uterus. Did God do that miraculously? Or is it simply that jumping in a mosh pit is the natural cure for ectopic pregnancy and physically causes the baby to shift? I do not know, but I do know this should be investigated much more seriously.

 

[NBTX11]

While I don't know what I would do, the option of attempting to move the embryo into the womb seems like the best available option, if it is medically feasible. If the embryo died, then that would be in God's hands.

 

[steve]

I recall a testimony from the wife of the first professional rider of the Britten racing motorcycle, which I heard in a church years ago. She was diagnosed with an ectopic pregnancy, and told to get an abortion and lie down quietly in the meantime. They instead prayed heavily and attended a ragey worship service where she was up and active. Next scan showed that the baby had moved to the uterus. Did God do that miraculously? Or is it simply that jumping in a mosh pit is the natural cure for ectopic pregnancy and physically causes the baby to shift? I do not know, but I do know this should be investigated much more seriously.

While I am on the extreme side of believing in miracles, this seems pretty sketchy.

 

[Joleneakamama]

She was diagnosed with an ectopic pregnancy, and told to get an abortion

My sisterwife was told that it looked like her son had Downs Syndrome and was encouraged to abort him. They wanted to do other tests which she declined. Because of that suggested possibility (and the lack of testing to rule it out) the midwife she had been talking to refused to deliver her baby. Then doctors told her he had stopped growing and she should induce labor at 34 weeks. She refused that too. She went into labor on his due date and he was 7 lb 13 oz and had an apgar score of 10 at birth.

Abortion is the cure for every complication of pregnancy to these kinds of degenerate pretenders at health care. Kind of like this comic.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I recall a testimony from the wife of the first professional rider of the Britten racing motorcycle, which I heard in a church years ago. She was diagnosed with an ectopic pregnancy, and told to get an abortion and lie down quietly in the meantime. They instead prayed heavily and attended a ragey worship service where she was up and active. Next scan showed that the baby had moved to the uterus. Did God do that miraculously? Or is it simply that jumping in a mosh pit is the natural cure for ectopic pregnancy and physically causes the baby to shift? I do not know, but I do know this should be investigated much more seriously.

The Britten was an amazing and amazingly beautiful motorcycle. It was a shame the designer died so young because he might have changed the face of the sport.

 

[nathan]

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