I truely appreciate the the spirit of coexistence that your displaying.
Plus when the other comments made about following Torah it's not and the comparison to dog a taken out of context that shows that there are those who take this view point.
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Acts 15/Galatians 2 To C or not to C
- Thread starter Verifyveritas76
- Start date
Plus when the other comments made about following Torah it's not and the comparison to dog a taken out of context that shows that there are those who take this view point.
C
Cap
Guest
I'm going out on a limb here because I don't want to speak for someone else, but I don't think he meant it the way you're taking it in his discussion. Here I think the misunderstanding about rabbinical ideas, which I believe he was referencing, and anyone's belief here are two different things. You made the statement yourself that ideas about rabbinical beliefs and Torah beliefs do confuse people. Maybe here you got confused.
I would have. I offered some to those eating pepperoni pizza
I don't mind, I would say no thank you if you offered something I know that I shouldn't be eating. I've eaten at VV76s house, he went out of his way to not serve what my family couldn't eat. At Andrew's house where many of us of different beleifs ate together there was options for us all. That was wonderful because there was no us vs them. There was no pretense of fellowship for the purpose of trying to convince a beleiver in Yeshua that he is wrong. Just fellowship.
Btw, the goat cheese in the Hummus was homeade too.
C
Cap
Guest
I would have. I offered some to those eating pepperoni pizza
I don't mind, I would say no thank you if you offered something I know that I shouldn't be eating. I've eaten at VV76s house, he went out of his way to not serve what my family couldn't eat. At Andrew's house where many of us of different beleifs ate together there was options for us all. That was wonderful because there was no us vs them. There was no pretense of fellowship for the purpose of trying to convince a beleiver in Yeshua that he is wrong. Just fellowship.
Btw, the goat cheese in the Hummus was homeade too.
Then we're all good and it's not Torah against non Torah, but two different and meaningful views trying to learn to live with each other.
Awesome, @Cap. Very well said, and, Kevin, I can't speak for anyone else and don't even have a vote in the matter, but here are my only standards for whether a person would be welcome to be part of the Biblical Families community:
1. Love Jesus; and
2. Be willing to be 100% supportive of Biblical polygyny even if you're only 10% of the way along the path of understanding why it's entirely supported by Scripture.
I don't have to understand why you keep kosher, any more than you have to understand why I don't. I don't have to believe what you believe about Torah, any more than you have to join me in my belief that Hell is a purposeful mythical mistranslation of original manuscripts. Recently, a number of contentious forum conversations have been taking place in which some (in my opinion unnecessary) polarization has occurred between Messianic/Hebrew Roots brothers/sisters and non-Messianic/non-Hebrew-Roots brothers/sisters. One would hope that that wouldn't mean that either side of the contextual polarization is unwelcome on here or at a Biblical Families retreat. I know for my part that I want everyone to show up at retreats. In fact, I highly suspect that some of the polarization would dissipate if everyone did show up at retreats. It is generally the case that it's a lot easier to get contentious when one never has to contemplate encountering his brothers and sisters face-to-face. Cowardice these days seems to most commonly represent itself anonymously behind computer keyboards.
Please be careful when coming to your conclusions about the motivations of others on here. Debate is debate. I don't know who asserted that keeping Torah is false doctrine, and, to me, no matter how much they may sincerely believe that Torah is false doctrine I think such an assertion should be kept to oneself in a mixed community like this, but, while perhaps rude, even making an assertion that keeping Torah is false doctrine does not translate into being able to assume that that person has designs on undermining your authority in your family.
On the other hand, if you're concerned that others aren't respecting your choices about how you spiritually lead your family, you might also want to consider that exhorting your non-Hebrew-Roots brothers to follow your practice of cross-comparing everything against Torah in order to live up to your standards of what it means to study Scripture is the equivalent of what you wouldn't want a brother to do to you.
Primarily, we are all here to provide support in a lonely world for actualizing plural families according to scriptural principles. We're not here to demand fealty to particular dogma outside of our shared belief in salvation accomplished by Christ's passion, resurrection and ascension. I have in the past privately encouraged you to return to these forums when I thought you were unfairly being admonished, and I have recently very purposefully tangled with someone who clearly treated you with tremendous disrespect. This time, in this post, I'm publicly giving you the same encouragement I once gave you in private. If possible, give brothers the benefit of doubt, taking into account the possibility that they are misspeaking rather than condemning you. And, even if there are some among us who condemn rather than demonstrate the love Christ exhorted us to demonstrated toward everyone with whom we associate, please recognize that they do not represent the majority of those who participate in these forum threads -- and they certainly don't represent the majority of those who actually attend the retreats.
I can promise you that, if you're not in attendance next month, my heart will most definitely shed a tear for your absence.
Keith
1. Love Jesus; and
2. Be willing to be 100% supportive of Biblical polygyny even if you're only 10% of the way along the path of understanding why it's entirely supported by Scripture.
I don't have to understand why you keep kosher, any more than you have to understand why I don't. I don't have to believe what you believe about Torah, any more than you have to join me in my belief that Hell is a purposeful mythical mistranslation of original manuscripts. Recently, a number of contentious forum conversations have been taking place in which some (in my opinion unnecessary) polarization has occurred between Messianic/Hebrew Roots brothers/sisters and non-Messianic/non-Hebrew-Roots brothers/sisters. One would hope that that wouldn't mean that either side of the contextual polarization is unwelcome on here or at a Biblical Families retreat. I know for my part that I want everyone to show up at retreats. In fact, I highly suspect that some of the polarization would dissipate if everyone did show up at retreats. It is generally the case that it's a lot easier to get contentious when one never has to contemplate encountering his brothers and sisters face-to-face. Cowardice these days seems to most commonly represent itself anonymously behind computer keyboards.
Please be careful when coming to your conclusions about the motivations of others on here. Debate is debate. I don't know who asserted that keeping Torah is false doctrine, and, to me, no matter how much they may sincerely believe that Torah is false doctrine I think such an assertion should be kept to oneself in a mixed community like this, but, while perhaps rude, even making an assertion that keeping Torah is false doctrine does not translate into being able to assume that that person has designs on undermining your authority in your family.
On the other hand, if you're concerned that others aren't respecting your choices about how you spiritually lead your family, you might also want to consider that exhorting your non-Hebrew-Roots brothers to follow your practice of cross-comparing everything against Torah in order to live up to your standards of what it means to study Scripture is the equivalent of what you wouldn't want a brother to do to you.
Primarily, we are all here to provide support in a lonely world for actualizing plural families according to scriptural principles. We're not here to demand fealty to particular dogma outside of our shared belief in salvation accomplished by Christ's passion, resurrection and ascension. I have in the past privately encouraged you to return to these forums when I thought you were unfairly being admonished, and I have recently very purposefully tangled with someone who clearly treated you with tremendous disrespect. This time, in this post, I'm publicly giving you the same encouragement I once gave you in private. If possible, give brothers the benefit of doubt, taking into account the possibility that they are misspeaking rather than condemning you. And, even if there are some among us who condemn rather than demonstrate the love Christ exhorted us to demonstrated toward everyone with whom we associate, please recognize that they do not represent the majority of those who participate in these forum threads -- and they certainly don't represent the majority of those who actually attend the retreats.
I can promise you that, if you're not in attendance next month, my heart will most definitely shed a tear for your absence.
Keith
We are talking about coming up for part of one day and back the same day. I have alot of stuff going on with the two congregations and a possible positive change in my family (got no details to share yet but The Father has been working in unexpected ways and I just need to see if his will is for this to happen). We had plans set before the date of the retreat was. I'm just making sure our presence isn't going to be trigger and avoid an uncomfortable situation for anyone who trys to express their beleifs to my family.
I sure hope it works for you to.make it @Kevin I/we would love to meet you and your family!
We have a diverse group of real life friends and family. We enjoy debate and study but never try to cram our beliefs down others throats.....or step on toes even (accidents can happen though). Life is better when enjoyed with humble pie shared with friends that know how to laugh at themselves.
One saying my hubby likes is "I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken."
Being hot or cold on any doctrine lets the spirit either confirm it, or change you. It's hard to get a clear answer on wishy washy.
This is readily killed by freezing and was mainly a problem back when meat was stored in smokers in climates that didn't get cold in the winter. And unless you're eating pasture raised pork, it's grown on concrete so no problems there either. So feel free to enjoy your bacon.
Thank you @Keith Martin. I ignored the Biblical Families site for a year or so, because of controversy over TO/Hebrew Roots/ etc. . . not so much because of affection for one doctrinal stand or another . . . but because of the spiritual tone and assumptions of the dialogue. It is amazingly "coincidental" that after so long away I should happen across this post; where a very similar discussion that expedited my departure was lovingly and peaceably resolved. The LORD is good.
J
James A
Guest
Jesus is the only way to heaven. All the discussion about torah or no torah or to follow the law or not is all background noise. Discernment in any situation is imperative. You can agree or disagree on what a verse says but ultimately it matters what Yahweh tells you personally because having a daily relationship with him is what matters
Winner, winner, chicken dinner!
Am willing to let sleeping dogs lie on the doctrinal issue, but a clarification on the insults. The insults were not by me. They are by the apostle Paul in Philippians 3:2.
In my opinion he is not insulting "all Torah keepers" nor is he insulting Jews in general. In my opinion he is insulting those who teach Gentiles to keep Torah.
I confess I am curious who you think he is insulting.
Kevin, I do not think there is another person on the planet that agrees with me on every possible Biblical doctrine. Just because we do not agree does not mean we can not fellowship.
This goes the other way, too: "Why do these Torah keepers want to fellowship with me? Obviously they want to undermine my family headship and convert my family!"
If you turn it around the other way you can see that it is an absurd argument.
I am confident in what I believe and my ability to teach it to my family and I respect you enough to believe that you have the same confidence with your family.
I missed you and your family at the retreat and wished you had been there. I am looking forward to the next time we meet.
@Kevin. Quadruple seconded
One more again, just because I’m a sucker for punishment and frankly it’ easier to keep rehashing this old ground than move on to new topics. He’s speaking to those who claim Torah is necessary for salvation. Even we were naming this fact the way we name movies it would be called “The Return of the Son of the Spawn of Torah Not Mandatory for Salvation Part Deux the Sequel; He’s back and this time he’s really pissed off again for another time!”
He’s speaking to those false teachers who were trying to force gentiles in to circumcision just in case somehow my lips are moving but nothing is coming out. Or there is a space time continuum and I’ve gotten stuck in a time loop.
Thank you for this. This was a really good laugh for me.