Pacman you know the scripture just well enough to be dangerous. To quote kevin CONTEXT! Please read down to verse 32 then read Hebrews chapter 3 tks
-
Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.
Acts 15/Galatians 2 To C or not to C
- Thread starter Verifyveritas76
- Start date
Pacman you know the scripture just well enough to be dangerous. To quote kevin CONTEXT! Please read down to verse 32 then read Hebrews chapter 3 tks
since my name was mentioned I guess I was being asked to point out the context? Are you speaking of Deut 1:26-42? I don't see any other post where y'all are discussing scripture. It apears that yall are responding to post I can see, so..... I'll post a reply of context on that compared to Hebrews 3 context. If I'm wrong about which verses y'all are talking about please post the verses so I can see the context.Pacman you know the scripture just well enough to be dangerous. To quote kevin CONTEXT! Please read down to verse 32 then read Hebrews chapter 3 tks
Duet. 1
So I read the all of Duet 1. It's in 19-46 that the context is shown.
It talks about God's command to go into the land take it and not be afraid, they got to the land and disobeyed by sending in scouts which came back saying, It is a good land which the Lord our God is about to give us.’ saw the Amorites were afraid and disobeyed and blasphemous God by saying He did and evil act to save them only to have another destroy God, God set a punishment for that generation for all of this, Then you said to me, ‘We have sinned against the Lord; we will indeed go up and fight, just as the Lord our God commanded us.’ And every man of you girded on his weapons of war, and regarded it as easy to go up into the hill country. 42 defeated before your enemies.”’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Say to them, “Do not go up nor fight, for I am not among you; otherwise you will be defeated before your enemies.”’ 43 So I spoke to you, but you would not listen. Instead command of the Lord, and acted presumptuously and went up into the hill country.
This is about disobedience and being sinful and trying to do it themselves without relying on God. There was lack of faith and that generation was punished for it.
I love This next chapter it Highlights that Moses does not give salvation Yeshua does, and what happens to the disobedient really puts the fear of God in most, after that we can fully appreciate His Grace & Mercy and live in His love.
Hebrews 3
3 Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, partners in a heavenly calling, take notice of Yeshua—the Emissary and Kohen Gadol we affirm. 2 He was faithful to the One who appointed Him in His house—as was Moses also. 3 For He has been considered worthy of more glory than Moses, even as the builder of the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God. 5 Now Moses surely was faithful in all God’s house as a servant, for a witness of things to be spoken later. 6 But Messiah, as Son, is over God’s house—and we are His house, if we hold firm to our boldness and what we are proud to hope.
7 Therefore, just as the Ruach ha-Kodesh says,
“Today if you hear His voice,
8 do not harden your hearts
as in the rebellion,
on the day of testing in the wilderness.
9 There your fathers put Me to the test,
though they saw My works for forty years.
10 Therefore I was provoked by this generation,
and I said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
and they have not known My ways.’
11 As I swore in my wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’”
12 Take care, brothers and sisters, that none of you has an evil heart of unbelief that falls away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another day by day—as long as it is called “Today”—so that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partners of Messiah, if we hold our original conviction firm until the end. 15 As it is said,
“Today if you hear His voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
16 Now which ones heard and rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt with Moses? 17 And with whom was He provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest? Was it not to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter in because of lack of faith.
How does this relate to the Law??
No contextual link.
It shows disobedience is a sin, is caused by lack of faith. Not unbelief which is denial of the Father or Son or Ruach. If any man here says he has never wavered in his faith he is saying he has never been disobedient and there for never sinned and is in fact a liar and calls scripture a liar.
This is a good point ask again to those who say you find it to hard and impossible to obey the law which is His statutes and rulings. If you are filled with the Ruach Hakodesh, the Spirit of God how can that be.
Ezekiel 36:26-27
26 Moreover I will give you a new heart. I will put a new spirit within you. I will remove the stony heart from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Ruach within you. Then I will cause you to walk in My statutes, so you will keep My rulings and do them.
“With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
-Yeshua
Unless you are choosing to be disobedient or have a lack of Faith you no longer have any excuses left.
The Father is not a harsh taskmaster. He is patient. He knows that you have to deny the flesh. The Ruach makes it easier as you let it work in your life. The more you deny the flesh the less of you there is. More room for the Ruach. Not your will but His. This is the transformation of being born again with a circumcised heart of flesh that has His Torah written on it and His Holy Spirit dwelling within. When Yeshua said go and sin no more He was not setting an impossible task. He was pointing to the standard that through the Guide He promised would lead us to in our walk.
My second biggest fear is falling into false doctrine. That's why everyday I read scripture, pray for discernment and guidance from the Ruach Hakodesh, learn Hebrew and Greek and question everything and everyone.
My biggest fear is to Hear this from Yeshua, "Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’"
Thank Yah I strive to uphold His statues and ordinances , His Laws, and I am covered in the Blood of the Passover Lamb, Yeshua HaMashiach so on that day when my sins are laid before me Yeshua will say I paid his wages he was redeemed and he is a faithful servant who loves me and obeys my instructions. Let me tell you brothers, if your flesh is stronger than His Spirit and you are unwilling to keep His Laws then in the days to come, for we are on the precipice of the last of days, you are in for hard times. For it is written: "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks and those who practice lawlessness. 42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace; in that place will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear!"
So I read the all of Duet 1. It's in 19-46 that the context is shown.
It talks about God's command to go into the land take it and not be afraid, they got to the land and disobeyed by sending in scouts which came back saying, It is a good land which the Lord our God is about to give us.’ saw the Amorites were afraid and disobeyed and blasphemous God by saying He did and evil act to save them only to have another destroy God, God set a punishment for that generation for all of this, Then you said to me, ‘We have sinned against the Lord; we will indeed go up and fight, just as the Lord our God commanded us.’ And every man of you girded on his weapons of war, and regarded it as easy to go up into the hill country. 42 defeated before your enemies.”’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Say to them, “Do not go up nor fight, for I am not among you; otherwise you will be defeated before your enemies.”’ 43 So I spoke to you, but you would not listen. Instead command of the Lord, and acted presumptuously and went up into the hill country.
This is about disobedience and being sinful and trying to do it themselves without relying on God. There was lack of faith and that generation was punished for it.
I love This next chapter it Highlights that Moses does not give salvation Yeshua does, and what happens to the disobedient really puts the fear of God in most, after that we can fully appreciate His Grace & Mercy and live in His love.
Hebrews 3
3 Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, partners in a heavenly calling, take notice of Yeshua—the Emissary and Kohen Gadol we affirm. 2 He was faithful to the One who appointed Him in His house—as was Moses also. 3 For He has been considered worthy of more glory than Moses, even as the builder of the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God. 5 Now Moses surely was faithful in all God’s house as a servant, for a witness of things to be spoken later. 6 But Messiah, as Son, is over God’s house—and we are His house, if we hold firm to our boldness and what we are proud to hope.
7 Therefore, just as the Ruach ha-Kodesh says,
“Today if you hear His voice,
8 do not harden your hearts
as in the rebellion,
on the day of testing in the wilderness.
9 There your fathers put Me to the test,
though they saw My works for forty years.
10 Therefore I was provoked by this generation,
and I said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
and they have not known My ways.’
11 As I swore in my wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’”
12 Take care, brothers and sisters, that none of you has an evil heart of unbelief that falls away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another day by day—as long as it is called “Today”—so that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partners of Messiah, if we hold our original conviction firm until the end. 15 As it is said,
“Today if you hear His voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
16 Now which ones heard and rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt with Moses? 17 And with whom was He provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest? Was it not to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter in because of lack of faith.
How does this relate to the Law??
No contextual link.
It shows disobedience is a sin, is caused by lack of faith. Not unbelief which is denial of the Father or Son or Ruach. If any man here says he has never wavered in his faith he is saying he has never been disobedient and there for never sinned and is in fact a liar and calls scripture a liar.
This is a good point ask again to those who say you find it to hard and impossible to obey the law which is His statutes and rulings. If you are filled with the Ruach Hakodesh, the Spirit of God how can that be.
Ezekiel 36:26-27
26 Moreover I will give you a new heart. I will put a new spirit within you. I will remove the stony heart from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Ruach within you. Then I will cause you to walk in My statutes, so you will keep My rulings and do them.
“With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
-Yeshua
Unless you are choosing to be disobedient or have a lack of Faith you no longer have any excuses left.
The Father is not a harsh taskmaster. He is patient. He knows that you have to deny the flesh. The Ruach makes it easier as you let it work in your life. The more you deny the flesh the less of you there is. More room for the Ruach. Not your will but His. This is the transformation of being born again with a circumcised heart of flesh that has His Torah written on it and His Holy Spirit dwelling within. When Yeshua said go and sin no more He was not setting an impossible task. He was pointing to the standard that through the Guide He promised would lead us to in our walk.
My second biggest fear is falling into false doctrine. That's why everyday I read scripture, pray for discernment and guidance from the Ruach Hakodesh, learn Hebrew and Greek and question everything and everyone.
My biggest fear is to Hear this from Yeshua, "Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’"
Thank Yah I strive to uphold His statues and ordinances , His Laws, and I am covered in the Blood of the Passover Lamb, Yeshua HaMashiach so on that day when my sins are laid before me Yeshua will say I paid his wages he was redeemed and he is a faithful servant who loves me and obeys my instructions. Let me tell you brothers, if your flesh is stronger than His Spirit and you are unwilling to keep His Laws then in the days to come, for we are on the precipice of the last of days, you are in for hard times. For it is written: "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks and those who practice lawlessness. 42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace; in that place will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear!"
Last edited:
Pacman you know the scripture just well enough to be dangerous. To quote kevin CONTEXT! Please read down to verse 32 then read Hebrews chapter 3 tks
Lol that’s rich coming from you.
Hebrews 3:17-19 NASB
[17] And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? [18] And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? [19] So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.
Deuteronomy 1:26 NASBS
[26] "Yet you were not willing to go up, but rebelled against the command of the LORD your God;
Deuteronomy 1:32 NASB
[32] But for all this, you did not trust the LORD your God,
Bro I read the whole chapter and I am aware that the disobedience was because they didn’t trust Yah. One could argue that it was both lack of trust and disobedience but the outward action (or lack thereof) was the reason for the judgment. @Cap was attempting to cherry pick the unbelief and make it seem as though the “head knowledge” was all that matters, within the context of a personal attack against a close friend of mine. I’m calling him on it. It was out of line and an incomplete picture of story. That true belief will result in actions and if it doesn’t there is no evidence of the belief. Curious if you have ever read the book of James? Even in Hebrews 3 we can see that the two are clearly linked.
Anyone care to reply to this???
https://biblicalfamilies.org/forum/...-2-to-c-or-not-to-c.14755/page-21#post-186702
Last edited:
This thread has been running in circles for a while now.
The Torah guys say," the Torah has nothing to do with salvation. Salvation is thru faith in Yeshua."
Christians say. " The Torah guys are asserting if we don't follow the Torah we are lawless and as such we can't be saved".
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
I am convinced if each follows this to the best of their understanding the Father will give according to the " Talents" He entrusted to each.
James
27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
How about we let this thread rest??
Bro I just want to be clear. Salvation is by grace through repentance from sin (lawlessness) and faith in Yeshua’s finished work on the cross. Nothing added or taken away. This true faith and repentance will be evidenced by “works” what exactly those “works” are is what we are all discussing. The problems come in when folks start saying that we are attempting to “work” to earn our salvation.
C
Cap
Guest
Just to be clear again, this is were it starts.
I feel like a Palestinian sometimes.
Last edited by a moderator:
C
Cap
Guest
Are you not? I'm asking a serious question and not trying get you more rilied up.
Why do you try and follow the laws you see described in the old testament, Torah, first five books of the Bible, whatever you want to call them?
I am not saying that you shouldn't, I'm just wanting to know why you do it.
C
Cap
Guest
If following Torah is the higher order why is it so hard for those who claim to follow it relay this information to those who don't follow it in a friendly precise manner that would be hard to question? It would seem to me that if it was truth then it would defend itself.
Hmm??? Flummoxed? I don’t get it, I’m confused.
Because I love Yeshua and it's what he told us to do.
1 John 2:3-6 NASB
By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. [4] The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; [5] but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: [6] the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
John 14:15 NASB
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
The reluctance of the audience to hear and apply the truth is not an appropriate barometer for how true or appropriately delivered the message is. For example: John the Baptist, Yeshua, all of the original Apostles, all of the judges and prophets...
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; notenote
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
So is this a lawless righteousness or a righteousness by faith that enables us to walk in obedience?
It's a righteousness all it's own that is added too as we are sanctified.
I give grace for the different interpretations on how we are sanctified.
I have met Torah believers with the life of Christ and I have met Kingdom christians with the Life of Christ. I believe each will be weighed as they weighed others. Forgiven as they forgave others. Etc.
C
Cap
Guest
The proper thing would be He told YOU to do, He didn't tell me, or at least He hasn't told me yet.
There are billions of people who believe in the truth of Forgiveness, Grace and Mercy based on Law preached by those you reference.
Your audience here is limited and basically focused on the principal of polygamy. Why does Torah even have to pushed. Believe and practice your belief however way you want to just like I will mine. It's very obvious a Torah agenda is being forced here lately.
I think Caleb and Joshua had the right idea, I wish there were a couple of them around here to offer faith to learn from.
What does being crucified with Christ mean?
If we died according to the Law, and are now alive in Christ, the Torah principle that a man is under the law so long as he lives must have a real life consequence.
Not so. Though he did often point back to the Old Testament, He did not “only” point back. I find it highly irregular to ignore the spoken words in the New Testament in favor of the written in only portions of the Old.
For example, Christ said If you love me, keep my commandments. Hmm. Which commandments could he be speaking of? A T.O. Guy will immediately deflect back to Torah instead of considering that Christ actually gave quite a few commandments in the New Testament, including one to a healed man to carry his burden on a Sabbath day. Followed by reassuring him when he was cast out of the synagogue for breaking Torah.
Um, laying naked in public versus a Torah to not uncover the thigh, and not to uncover anyone’s nakedness etc. I do realize that David danced naked apparently, but public nudity appears to me to be instructed against in Torah. There are obviously others that we have previously discussed, but this one was germane.
From what I understand, you may be conflating sanctification with justification. Care to define either?
So, I’ve been way too busy lately to even do more than glance at the forum over the last couple of days, and I am now, at 3:30 am trying to catch up on what’s been going on.
I have to say @Kevin that I am disappointed in how you have made repeated personal derogatory remarks to @Jim an Apostle. Regardless of how you may feel or disapprove, that is conduct unbecoming.
For the most part, everyone else managed to keep it together until about a page ago. It appears though that the incident has worked itself out and for that I’m thankful.
This just goes to show that all of us can use the exercise in showing grace in how we address each other, regardless of differences of opinion.
I have to say @Kevin that I am disappointed in how you have made repeated personal derogatory remarks to @Jim an Apostle. Regardless of how you may feel or disapprove, that is conduct unbecoming.
For the most part, everyone else managed to keep it together until about a page ago. It appears though that the incident has worked itself out and for that I’m thankful.
This just goes to show that all of us can use the exercise in showing grace in how we address each other, regardless of differences of opinion.
The Law of sin and Death Paul mentions 8 different laws in the new testament. Context shows what he meant with each one. By saying it was Torah, the law of God, then in other parts you make him contradict himself.
Your interpretation.
Torah is bondage.
But
Sin is bondage.
We know that Torah is not sin.
We know sin is against the Torah.
The math doesn't add up. For Torah to be Bondage when in scripture it says may I always keep your Torah and walk in freedom.
Psalm 119:44-46
44 So I may always keep Your Torah,
forever and ever,
45 and walk about in freedom.
For I have sought Your precepts.
46 I will speak of Your testimonies
before kings, and never be ashamed.
If the law is bondage. And sin is bondage, And sin is against the law. How do you repent? Not the Greek mind set beleif, if I say the words, scripture shows just saying the words don't mean squat. When the heart changes and so does the people, this is the fruit. If theres no fruit, no change. Faith without Deeds is dead. If it's just being a good person according to what we personaly believe is good, then that's man resting on his own understanding.
Take The Brean approach. Take what Paul says and compare it to what the old testament says. They didn't have the New testament they werent comparing his words against his words. They were comparing it to what the first half of scripture says. But who actually does that, it's easier just to find something that justifies our opinions in one verse even though the next verse or a couple verses down contradict personal beleifs or something in this book or that one does.
First, it appears that he was denying that Yeshua gives salvation. He still didn't clarify if he was saying Yeshua only made it possible and the Holy Spirit imparts Salvation, and if he beleives eternal life is salvation. He just liked the post where I apologized if I miss understood him.
Second, your addressing something already handled in your absence why? Either an attempt to shame me or stir things up again.
Definition of derogatory
1: expressive of a low opinion :
disparaging, derogatory remarks, a derogatory term
2: detracting from the character or standing of something —often used with to, towards, or of
Nothing you haven't done the forum, like what you are actually doing in the post I'm responding to.
Finally your disappointed - sad or displeased because someone or something has failed to fulfill one's hopes or expectations. Though we are friends, I'm not here to please you.
Where's the address of derogatory remarks that are directed at those who beleive that repentance ,the turning away from sin, means to Keep Torah? Ahh the stench of bias.
Thank you for giving me the push I needed and cutting those last threads. I'm no longer under the illusion that were here debating scripture to search out what scripture says. Iron sharpening Iron. It's just men trying to justify what they feel is correct which is fruitless.
I have made it clear that in the end I don't care how others practice their beleifs, It has no effect on my walk and relationship with Yeshua. Ive said this time and time again. I used to have a disclaimer. Were going to be Judged by a perfect judge on our walk regardless on our interpretations, I just want mine to match up with His will. I debate so His Spirit can show me where I'm walking incorrectly. I question everything and every one, including my own beleifs. When I study something out I try to prove myself wrong. I don't look for what justifies my opinions.
Last edited:
Folks I am going to disengage with discussion on this topic for now it simply keeps going in circles and I feel that there isn't much more to be said. If anyone wants to know my perspective about this any more deeply please feel free to send me a private message and I will be happy to talk with you.