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Acts 15/Galatians 2 To C or not to C

And yet in 24.
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Same guys

This is referring back to the group mentioned in verse 1 this was why Paul went to Jerusalem. They were teaching them to keep the law for salvation. The group spoken about in verse 5 was already present in Jerusalem. It’s a different group that was never spoken against in the entire passage. Also notice the group in verse one are not said to be Pharisees.

This is getting off topic so feel free to split this off if you think it best.

I know that the idea of keeping the law runs counter to mainstream teaching and therefore the default assumption is that those in verse 5 were false brethren but that’s not what the passage actually teaches. Paul never stopped being a Pharisee he testifies later in a court of law that he is (present tense) a Pharisee, also he never converted to anything. The footnotes in your bible are not inspired.
 
This is referring back to the group mentioned in verse 1 this was why Paul went to Jerusalem. They were teaching them to keep the law for salvation. The group spoken about in verse 5 was already present in Jerusalem. It’s a different group that was never spoken against in the entire passage. Also notice the group in verse one are not said to be Pharisees.

This is getting off topic so feel free to split this off if you think it best.

I know that the idea of keeping the law runs counter to mainstream teaching and therefore the default assumption is that those in verse 5 were false brethren but that’s not what the passage actually teaches. Paul never stopped being a Pharisee he testifies later in a court of law that he is (present tense) a Pharisee, also he never converted to anything. The footnotes in your bible are not inspired.

In Acts 21:24,25 Paul is basically coerced to outwardly perform the completion phase of a vow with some other men who have made a vow to disprove that he is not anti Torah, and that he walkest orderly, and keeps the law.
“As touching the Gentiles which believe, (post conversion) we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing (the law) save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

At best, following the law post conversion is a Jewish injunction. There is no imperative to do so (per the apostles) unless you are Jewish and even that is arguable under the new covenant where there is now no distinction between Jew or Greek, bond or free, male or female but we are all one in Christ.

Acts 21:24,25 is a reference back to the Acts 15 conference that Paul is referring to in Galatians 2. (I looked for another conference that was even close to these parameters and couldn’t find one even close). To say that the only issue refuted in Acts 15 is a pre conversion issue, rather than a pre and post conversion issue, is to ignore that the men who had come to Antioch were attempting to coerce Believers into circumcision, not prospective believers. Paul makes clear that these men were attacking believers on both fronts, pre and post conversion in Galatians 3:3. Are ye so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit (conversion), are ye now (post conversion) made perfect by the flesh?

These psuedo brethren were also attempting to ostracise Gentile Believers who weren’t Torah observant based on a Torah principle found in Exodus 34:15. This is the same principle that Peter wrestled with personally in chapter 10 and was bludgeoned about the head and shoulders with in Chapter 11:2,3 by those of the circumcision. They didnt back off until Peter used the “God told me too” trump card for their legitimate Torah objections.

It also ignores that both sides of the argument in Antioch go to Jerusalem to ask this question of the apostles and elders. “When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem . . .”

Verse 4 is Paul and Barnabas presenting their side of the argument, and verse 5 is the other side presenting their arguments. Whether or not the exact Pharisees presenting the argument were the same exact men who were creating dissection in Antioch, or whether they were deferring the presentation to others of the circumcision (that sent them out) is irrelevant. They were all of the same persuasion and prosecuted the same charge(s).

IMO, These are the same “certain men” of verse one that come to Antioch, the same “certain other of them” from verse 2 that return to Jerusalem. The same “certain of the sect of Pharisees” in verse 5 that present the prosecution, and the same “certain which went out from us that have troubled you, subverting your souls” in verse 24.

The sentence given is the same recorded in Acts 21 passage as well as in the letter sent to the churches that state: Forasmuch as we have heard that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be (1) circumcised and (2)keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

The proscription for Gentiles to keep the Mosaic law is counter to apostolic instruction.

As to Paul extolling his Pharisee credentials, there are two places where Paul does this. Once in the legal challenge, but this was only done to divide the multitude that was arrayed against him, not to necessarily align himself with Torah. Acts 23:6&7. A bit misleading to try to use this example to prove Torah observant. Paul used this pedigree to his advantage, just as he often used his Roman citizenship.
The second is in Philippians 3:5-8 and is an account of his history and pedigree. His past (unless he needed to divide and conquer). But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. . . .. 8 for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ. (His status as blameless in the righteousness of the law is also included in the dung category)
 
Deuteronomy 30:6: And Yod,Hey,Vey,Hey will circumcise your heart and the heart of your seed in order that you might love Yod,Hey,Vey,Hey, your Elohim, with all your heart and with all your soul so that you might live.”

To many people think circumcision of the heart is a "new" Covenant thing. If you look at Torah when Its talking about physical circumcision it states the physical and when it doesn't its speaking of Deut. 30:6.

Many on both sides of the argument are ignorant, not saying you too guys, and use it to justify telling others they have to get physically circumsized to participate in the Instructions and Feast of Adonai and then used by the other side in the gospels its talking about not needing to be physically circumsized so see we don't have to follow Torah. I have yet to see a gospel teaching that isn't explained in Torah. Except the ones created by man that usally make Yeshua and God liars and sinners.
 
I'm confused again. What are your arguing against @Verifyveritas76 , the idea that believers must keep Torah or that Torah is an option? Very few people claim Torah is mandatory for the non-Jew. I do know those that do but I don't think many of them are here. The anti-Torah crowd frequently starts arguing against the necessity of Torah for salvation (something know Christ follower would ever claim) but then by degrees start attacking the idea of anyone following Torah. What are you trying to say?
 
The anti-Torah crowd frequently starts arguing against the necessity of Torah for salvation (something know Christ follower would ever claim) but then by degrees start attacking the idea of anyone following Torah.
I’m currently going thru Matthew, I’m in chapter 5 at the moment. Jesus said he didn’t come to do away with the law but to fulfill it. So, the law stays intact. Now the question becomes, what is meant by ‘fulfill’ the law. The Pharisees and scribes were good at fulfilling the letter of the law. So, the letter of the law can’t be what we should aspire towards. It has to do with heart attitude. Once we define the heart attitude, we’ll be well underway. Personally, I think it has to do with the 9 fruits of the Spirit.
 
I’m currently going thru Matthew, I’m in chapter 5 at the moment. Jesus said he didn’t come to do away with the law but to fulfill it. So, the law stays intact. Now the question becomes, what is meant by ‘fulfill’ the law. The Pharisees and scribes were good at fulfilling the letter of the law. So, the letter of the law can’t be what we should aspire towards. It has to do with heart attitude. Once we define the heart attitude, we’ll be well underway. Personally, I think it has to do with the 9 fruits of the Spirit.
I would take it to mean He completed the Law. The parts that were a shadow of things to come are now in fruition. Circumsicion of the foreskin is now of the heart. The Sabbath was on the seventh day is now a perpetual rest we are to abide in.etc
 
I’m currently going thru Matthew, I’m in chapter 5 at the moment. Jesus said he didn’t come to do away with the law but to fulfill it. So, the law stays intact. Now the question becomes, what is meant by ‘fulfill’ the law. The Pharisees and scribes were good at fulfilling the letter of the law. So, the letter of the law can’t be what we should aspire towards. It has to do with heart attitude. Once we define the heart attitude, we’ll be well underway. Personally, I think it has to do with the 9 fruits of the Spirit.
That leaves a lot of wiggle room.
 
I’m currently going thru Matthew, I’m in chapter 5 at the moment. Jesus said he didn’t come to do away with the law but to fulfill it. So, the law stays intact. Now the question becomes, what is meant by ‘fulfill’ the law. The Pharisees and scribes were good at fulfilling the letter of the law. So, the letter of the law can’t be what we should aspire towards. It has to do with heart attitude. Once we define the heart attitude, we’ll be well underway. Personally, I think it has to do with the 9 fruits of the Spirit.


I would take it to mean He completed the Law. The parts that were a shadow of things to come are now in fruition. Circumsicion of the foreskin is now of the heart. The Sabbath was on the seventh day is now a perpetual rest we are to abide in.etc

Matthew 5:17-18 NASB
[17] "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. [18] For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.


There are still huge swaths of “Old Testament” prophesy that is yet to be fulfilled. Basic reading of the verses makes it obvious it doesn’t mean “complete” in the sense of no longer binding... I think the last part of strong’s and first part of thayer’s is most applicable...

Fulfill

Strong's Number
G4137
Original Word
πληρόω

Strong's Definition
From G4134; to make replete that is (literally) to cram (a net) level up (a hollow) or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue diffuse 6
influence) satisfy 6
execute (an office) finish (a period or task) verify (or coincide with a prediction) etc.: - accomplish X after (be) complete end expire fill (up) fulfil (be make) full (come) fully preach perfect supply.


Thayer's Definition

  1. to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
    1. to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
      1. I abound, I am liberally supplied
  2. to render full, i.e. to complete
    1. to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim

    2. to consummate: a number
      1. to make complete in every particular, to render perfect

      2. to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
    3. to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
      1. of matters of duty: to perform, execute

      2. of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish

      3. to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment
 
Circumsicion of the foreskin is now of the heart.
Read Deut. 30:6 its not a now thing it was a all along how it was to be thing.

The Sabbath was on the seventh day is now a perpetual rest we are to abide in.
Can you show me where in scripture it actually says this. I've seen where people pull verses out of John, 2 Corinthians, Hebrews, Mark, and Mathew and used them out of context to be interpreted for the purpose of justifying not observerving the Sabbath.

I would like to point out that that Yeshua sitting and and resting in context is about the labor of atonement for us. He had accomplished all he had come to do as the Lamb. He finishes all things left undone when He returns as the conqueror.
 
I'm confused again. What are your arguing against @Verifyveritas76 , the idea that believers must keep Torah or that Torah is an option? Very few people claim Torah is mandatory for the non-Jew. I do know those that do but I don't think many of them are here. The anti-Torah crowd frequently starts arguing against the necessity of Torah for salvation (something know Christ follower would ever claim) but then by degrees start attacking the idea of anyone following Torah. What are you trying to say?

Torah observance is certainly a valid personal option. Jew or Gentile IMO. I do understand that many people choose to observe this option which is entirely their perogative.

My point is simply to set the record straight as to the history and background behind these passages and the conclusions of the apostles and elders at Jerusalem on the subject.

I’ve observed quite a few people decide to be TO based on what appear to me to be a misunderstanding of scripture (old and New Testaments) and influence of revisionist history and scripurally unsupported assumptions.

We all know what it’s like to pop the red pill on lies the Church has told us. Usually that leaves us looking for truth we can hang our faith on. Being familiar with 21st century Christianity, we can all point out the issues because we are so familiar with them.

That’s really not the case when examining Torah because we do so thru the lenses of a Christianity bias. It’s usually not until the second generation TO guys that they start giving it the squint eye, and coming out of it. Usually because they know enough about it to thoroughly evaluate it against the scripture, just as we’ve done with Corporate Christianity.

Observe away to your hearts content! But if you believe that this passage is somehow proof that you should or you must, my hands are clean.

BTW. I wouldn’t classify myself as an anti Torah guy. Rather as a Melchizedek priesthood observer. There is a distinct difference.
 
Torah observance is certainly a valid personal option. Jew or Gentile IMO. I do understand that many people choose to observe this option which is entirely their perogative.

My point is simply to set the record straight as to the history and background behind these passages and the conclusions of the apostles and elders at Jerusalem on the subject.

I’ve observed quite a few people decide to be TO based on what appear to me to be a misunderstanding of scripture (old and New Testaments) and influence of revisionist history and scripurally unsupported assumptions.

We all know what it’s like to pop the red pill on lies the Church has told us. Usually that leaves us looking for truth we can hang our faith on. Being familiar with 21st century Christianity, we can all point out the issues because we are so familiar with them.

That’s really not the case when examining Torah because we do so thru the lenses of a Christianity bias. It’s usually not until the second generation TO guys that they start giving it the squint eye, and coming out of it. Usually because they know enough about it to thoroughly evaluate it against the scripture, just as we’ve done with Corporate Christianity.

Observe away to your hearts content! But if you believe that this passage is somehow proof that you should or you must, my hands are clean.

BTW. I wouldn’t classify myself as an anti Torah guy. Rather as a Melchizedek priesthood observer. There is a distinct difference.
Fair enough.
 
Read Deut. 30:6 its not a now thing it was a all along how it was to be thing.

Can you show me where in scripture it actually says this. I've seen where people pull verses out of John, 2 Corinthians, Hebrews, Mark, and Mathew and used them out of context to be interpreted for the purpose of justifying not observerving the Sabbath.

I would like to point out that that Yeshua sitting and and resting in context is about the labor of atonement for us. He had accomplished all he had come to do as the Lamb. He finishes all things left undone when He returns as the conqueror.
Hebrews 4
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. note

9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. note

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
 
Just for the record, and not to derail my own thread, I have looked extensively for confirmation that a specific 7th day Sabbath observance was a normal practice post crucifixion. I have looked at a lot of passages used to support a 7th day Sabbath New Testament and everything I’ve been shown has been inference from evangelistic efforts to reach the Jews.

Non canon writings within the NT era, as well as after have not been ambivalent at all about observing a 7th day Sabbath.

The closest that I have found to ambivalence is Paul in Romans 14.

It is also worth noting that Christ, post resurrection, met with the disciples that evening and the following Sunday evening to assemble, and break bread. It is also a very good possibility that the occasions when Christ gets alone on a mountain to pray may have been a precursor to this practice post crucifixion. Luke 9:18-37

Sunday assembly was referenced by the early believers as the eighth day/mia Shabbat / resurrection day/ the Lords day interchangeably.
 
C
Hebrews 4
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. note

9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. note

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Context.

Hebrews 4

4 Let us fear then! Though a promise of entering His rest is left open, some of you would seem to have fallen short. 2 For we also have had Good News proclaimed to us, just as they did. But the word they heard did not help them, because they were not unified with those who listened in faith. 3 For we who have trusted are entering into that rest. It is just as God has said,

So in My wrath I swore,
‘They shall never enter My rest,’”

even though His works were finished since the foundation of the world. 4 For somewhere He has spoken about the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works,” 5 and again in this passage:

“They shall never enter My rest.”

6 So then it remains for some to enter into it; yet those who formerly had Good News proclaimed to them did not enter because of disobedience.
7 Again, God appoints a certain day—“Today”—saying through David after so long a time, just as it has been said before,

“Today, if you hear His voice,
do not harden your hearts.”

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. 9 So there remains a Shabbat rest for the people of God. 10 For the one who has entered God’s rest has also ceased from his own work, just as God did from His.

11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one may fall through the same pattern of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword—piercing right through to a separation of soul and spirit, joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 No creature is hidden from Him, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

Look at the Greek you'll see the wording in verse 7 is a reaffirming of an appointed day.

Verse ten shows we are to observe the Sabbath by resting from our own work, ceasing it. Even in the Kingdom we will continuously serve. We will find our rest in Him. In His service. Our day of rest is a rest from our physical labors not a perpetual rest.
 
Just for the record, and not to derail my own thread, I have looked extensively for confirmation that a specific 7th day Sabbath observance was a normal practice post crucifixion. I have looked at a lot of passages used to support a 7th day Sabbath New Testament and everything I’ve been shown has been inference from evangelistic efforts to reach the Jews.

Non canon writings within the NT era, as well as after have not been ambivalent at all about observing a 7th day Sabbath.

The closest that I have found to ambivalence is Paul in Romans 14.

It is also worth noting that Christ, post resurrection, met with the disciples that evening and the following Sunday evening to assemble, and break bread. It is also a very good possibility that the occasions when Christ gets alone on a mountain to pray may have been a precursor to this practice post crucifixion. Luke 9:18-37

Sunday assembly was referenced by the early believers as the eighth day/mia Shabbat / resurrection day/ the Lords day interchangeably.
I believe I posted How the Early Chatholic Church explains why they changed Sunday to their Sabbath. They believe they had the authority to do so. They show for evidence of having the authority to do so in the fact that God did not stop them. I posted a page from their book for teaching priest and new believers.
 
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I have heard and seen instances like you have posted Kevin, but the documents I’m talking about go all the way back to the mid first century and apostolic origin. If I’m not mistaken, yours date about 300 years after and are not the origin of a First day worship but an attempt to legislate morality using an already existing observance. Yes the RCC did do that, but they were by no means the origin
 
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