Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues

[steve]

For me, praying in tongues is not repetitive and not meditation.
I can only say that it allows me to communicate with Yah on a deeper level than what my intellect can. When I get to the end of my understanding is the point that I need it.
Dexter is correct, there is a difference between a personal prayer tongue and the gift of tongues. But I am not a teacher and cannot expound upon it. It’s just a necessary part of my life.

Yeah, I don’t expect very many to understand.

 

[steve]

A fun story that I ran across over 40 years ago involved a lady’s prayer tongue and a man with the gift of interpreting tongues.
The woman wanted to know what she was praying about and asked this guy to check it out. To her chagrin, the prayers were (I don’t remember the exact details) interceding for her, that Yah would correct her attitude and outlook.

 

[bro. Dexter for YAH]

For me, praying in tongues is not repetitive and not meditation.
I can only say that it allows me to communicate with Yah on a deeper level than what my intellect can.

This is precisely what I experience. I can't say what needs to be said sometimes, but there is a deep-seated need that needs to be expressed and a burden lifted. I am convinced that many times when I am unaware of what is being said, the Spirit is interceding on my behalf to set me free from I know not what or am just unable to articulate. Yah is good. The experience provides such a peace and relief, the Comforter lives up to His name.

 

[steve]

18I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

Is Paul merely a braggart, showing off his gift of tongues?
Or is he saying that he spends more time in his personal prayer tongue, exhorting them to step up their game?
Because if he is talking about a gift that not everyone receives, he is being a huge jerk.

The nuances between gift and personal tongues is more caught than taught.
We are given a discussion of some of their experiences, not a treatise on the subject.
Being teachable of the Spirit doesn’t play second fiddle to being a scholar on what the Word states.

 

[JudahYAHites]

The framing of this discussion by most is around the gifts. But my focus is the filling/indwelling of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. I am not speaking of the gifts when I say this. And I reiterate that.

Salvation is the most pressing issue. This is why I care.

Rather than go deep into discussing the Pentecostal movement, I'll just say that I've looked into it and understand it as a revival movement refocusing people on the importance of receiving the Holy Spirit. The doctrine is not recent, its only recently dug up and revived, specifically by the Pentecostals.

I watch Thoughts Camera Action occasionally. Tend to enjoy his videos, but I dont look to him for doctrine. When I watch I'm looking for some of the things he uncovers and the connections he makes as far as conspiracies of religion in plain sight.

There is definitely another spirit and another gospel. There are false tongues. There's a counterfeit Holy Spirit. I'm not gonna pretend a higher level of discernment than I have though. Depending on what I see and hear I may be skeptical, but I like to remain very reserved in making a judgment in matters such as this, because Yahshua said don't blaspheme the Holy Spirit. So I want to be very careful not to attribute the work of the Holy Spirit to be that of demons. I do not take that lightly. Yet and still, there are certainly counterfeits and falsehoods masquerading as the Spirit. I'll leave it there.

Shalom

Let me be clear I understand and agree with what you have written.

The reason for the TCA videos was NOT for teaching at all, he is not a teacher, it was for historical understanding of denominations, movements and doctrines and how they ALL link together.

It is the wording that you have used that is Pentecostal in origin however going deeper there are parts of the doctrine that are more akin to once saved always saved.

I have seen heard and been in virtually this very conversation numerous times.

There are numerous reasons I do not listen to pastor dowell so wouldn't watch the video, but I will leave that there

I have found that there are key points being missed when this topic is brought up.

So I am going to share the encounter I had last week that hopefully helps highlight my point

I came across a brother in a train station who approached me and gave a leaflet for his fellowship I smiled and thanked him.
He started talking to me about his fellowship. I responded positively, I simply stated that we also have a fellowship to which he started the usual barrage of questions

Have you received the baptism of the holy spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues?
Yes

Do you have prophecy in your ministry?
Yes

Do you have miracles etc in your ministry?
Yes

After he seemed satisfied with my answers and it seemed I was acceptable to his perceived standard, enough to inquire about the ministry given to me, he asked me if I had a card or a leaflet?

I told him no.

I said you can go online with the name to see, then, I said, let's exchange numbers or I can give you my number so we can stay in contact.

He immediately proceeded to step back as if I had belched in his face after eating raw onion & garlic waving his hands and he said no no we do not mix with anyone outside of what we are doing.

He then proceeded to talk about the prophecies and the miracles signs and wonders at the fellowship he attends.

He then kept asking if I have raised the dead, I said no, but....

He just kept on, so, I asked him what the bible says about how people will know that God sent Jesus.

He couldn't answer. So I started to explain, love for one another, he promptly cut me off and proceeded to explain why the ministry he attends is of God.

So not wanting to enter into a competitive conversation I held my silence.

I waited for a break in his speech and simply stated that we must be holy to which he interjected that being holy is nothing without power, referring to Jude, stating that false teachers have no power.

Our conversation ended there.

My last words to him were walk in love be holy.

I say all that to say this. (I will keep it short and succinct)

There are some things stated in the bible that keep us out of the kingdom.

Iniquity aka lawlessness
Not being holy
Love gone cold (which ironically is attached to iniquity/lawlessness)

On the other hand the things that the train station brother and pastor Dowell boast about are the very same things the rejected will state to YaHushuWaH / Jesus when face to face with him

Matthew 7:21-23 KJV — Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These boasters are literally rehearsing this passage

The baptism of the holy spirit does not negate responsibility or accountability, that my beloved brothers is my point.

1 Corinthians 9:27 KJV — But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Philippians 3:12-14 KJV — Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

 

[bro. Dexter for YAH]

ⁿ

Let me be clear I understand and agree with what you have written.

The reason for the TCA videos was NOT for teaching at all, he is not a teacher, it was for historical understanding of denominations, movements and doctrines and how they ALL link together.

It is the wording that you have used that is Pentecostal in origin however going deeper there are parts of the doctrine that are more akin to once saved always saved.

I have seen heard and been in virtually this very conversation numerous times.

There are numerous reasons I do not listen to pastor dowell so wouldn't watch the video, but I will leave that there

I have found that there are key points being missed when this topic is brought up.

So I am going to share the encounter I had last week that hopefully helps highlight my point

I came across a brother in a train station who approached me and gave a leaflet for his fellowship I smiled and thanked him.
He started talking to me about his fellowship. I responded positively, I simply stated that we also have a fellowship to which he started the usual barrage of questions

Have you received the baptism of the holy spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues?
Yes

Do you have prophecy in your ministry?
Yes

Do you have miracles etc in your ministry?
Yes

After he seemed satisfied with my answers and it seemed I was acceptable to his perceived standard, enough to inquire about the ministry given to me, he asked me if I had a card or a leaflet?

I told him no.

I said you can go online with the name to see, then, I said, let's exchange numbers or I can give you my number so we can stay in contact.

He immediately proceeded to step back as if I had belched in his face after eating raw onion & garlic waving his hands and he said no no we do not mix with anyone outside of what we are doing.

He then proceeded to talk about the prophecies and the miracles signs and wonders at the fellowship he attends.

He then kept asking if I have raised the dead, I said no, but....

He just kept on, so, I asked him what the bible says about how people will know that God sent Jesus.

He couldn't answer. So I started to explain, love for one another, he promptly cut me off and proceeded to explain why the ministry he attends is of God.

So not wanting to enter into a competitive conversation I held my silence.

I waited for a break in his speech and simply stated that we must be holy to which he interjected that being holy is nothing without power, referring to Jude, stating that false teachers have no power.

Our conversation ended there.

My last words to him were walk in love be holy.

I say all that to say this. (I will keep it short and succinct)

There are some things stated in the bible that keep us out of the kingdom.

Iniquity aka lawlessness
Not being holy
Love gone cold (which ironically is attached to iniquity/lawlessness)

On the other hand the things that the train station brother and pastor Dowell boast about are the very same things the rejected will state to YaHushuWaH / Jesus when face to face with him

Matthew 7:21-23 KJV — Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These boasters are literally rehearsing this passage

The baptism of the holy spirit does not negate responsibility or accountability, that my beloved brothers is my point.

1 Corinthians 9:27 KJV — But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Philippians 3:12-14 KJV — Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

In order that we understand one another, I'll clarify as much as I can:

Once saved, always saved is blatantly false. There are numerous instances biblically of this being the case but for brevity I'll point to King Saul as a perfect example. Scripture warns us not to grieve the Holy Spirit, indicating that the Holy Spirit can be grieved and will remove His presence (and salvation) from a soul that grieves Him and remains unrepentant (like Saul).

I believe I understand the point you're making through your story/experience. If not, I am open to being corrected.

You passed his test/standard according to your answers, but he still couldn't hear you and didn't want to link up with you to have anything to do with you or your ministry. His sole purpose was to talk you into fellowshiping with them, under the assumption that they -- and not you -- know the Way. You were emphasizing love and brotherhood and being set apart, he was emphasizing power (finding a way to assert you don't have it, and therefore you should join them). Love, holiness, and power all have their proper place in the Kingdom.

Yahshua said and they shall know you by the love ye have one to another (John 13:35). Yahshua also said these signs (POWER) shall follow them that believe (Mark 16: 17-18). And the disciples "went forth, and preached every where, the Master working with them, and confirming the word with signs following" (Mark 16:20). Ye shall be endued with power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you (Acts 1:8).

Yahshua's instruction was to preach the Word accompanied by his *power*. Why? Because that's what he did. The goal (which is demonstrated in Yahshua's life and ministry) is for Yah to set free and deliver His people from all manner of bondage, as well as confirm His servants with fruit and *signs* (NOT lying signs & wonders) that cannot be denied. Its not an exercise in flexing, its the manifestation of the Spirit of Yah specifically for the benefit of His people, and a sign to all to draw in others that they might believe also. We know that Yah is real, we've seen Him work and do things that only He can do!

There is no fault in boasting in the power of Yah, in HIS great works through the Holy Spirit, and giving Him all the glory the way Pastor Dowell does constantly. Yahshua did the same. Yahshua is gonna declare unto them who you mentioned - "I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice *lawlessness*."

So that I am not deceived, please point out the lawlessness in what Pastor Dowell says or does. Otherwise, that verse isn't directed towards Straitway.

My soul makes its boast in the LORD; The humble and downtrodden will hear it and rejoice (Psalm 34:2).

Some boast in chariots and some in horses,
But we will boast in the name of YAHUAH, our Elohim (Psalm 20:7).

But he who boasts is to boast in YAHUAH (2 Corinthians 10:17).

Therefore in Messiah Yahshua I have found reason for boasting in things pertaining to Elohim (Romans 15:17).

Should we refrain from boasting in the power of Yah for fear of the judgment of man? Not a chance.

Thank Yah that we have men of Yah calling attention to the power of Yah so that all may see and know that He's still doing miracles and healing right now to this very day, time, and hour because there are many out there who need to hear the Message and who need to be healed.

James 2: 14-17

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

How much more faith are we pouring into a brother who, upon hearing the message, he is also healed of his cancer or bad knees or back pain or whatever the case may be? We've just poured the love of Yah into his whole being, with a work that only Messiah can do. We can do all things through Christ who strengthens us! We should be about our Father's business in every regard, including exercising power in the Holy Spirit.

I'm not trying to turn this into a debate over Pastor Dowell. If we are continuing our discussion over the Holy Spirit and power and tongues, I'll do my best to keep everything in proper context. I reference Straitway as I do because that's where Yah sent me and thats where I am fed. But for the record, I am not a member of Straitway, yet Pastor Dowell is most certainly my pastor.

 

[JudahYAHites]

ⁿ

In order that we understand one another, I'll clarify as much as I can:

Once saved, always saved is blatantly false. There are numerous instances biblically of this being the case but for brevity I'll point to King Saul as a perfect example. Scripture warns us not to grieve the Holy Spirit, indicating that the Holy Spirit can be grieved and will remove His presence (and salvation) from a soul that grieves Him and remains unrepentant (like Saul).

I believe I understand the point you're making through your story/experience. If not, I am open to being corrected.

You passed his test/standard according to your answers, but he still couldn't hear you and didn't want to link up with you to have anything to do with you or your ministry. His sole purpose was to talk you into fellowshiping with them, under the assumption that they -- and not you -- know the Way. You were emphasizing love and brotherhood and being set apart, he was emphasizing power (finding a way to assert you don't have it, and therefore you should join them). Love, holiness, and power all have their proper place in the Kingdom.

Yahshua said and they shall know you by the love ye have one to another (John 13:35). Yahshua also said these signs (POWER) shall follow them that believe (Mark 16: 17-18). And the disciples "went forth, and preached every where, the Master working with them, and confirming the word with signs following" (Mark 16:20). Ye shall be endued with power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you (Acts 1:8).

Yahshua's instruction was to preach the Word accompanied by his *power*. Why? Because that's what he did. The goal (which is demonstrated in Yahshua's life and ministry) is for Yah to set free and deliver His people from all manner of bondage, as well as confirm His servants with fruit and *signs* (NOT lying signs & wonders) that cannot be denied. Its not an exercise in flexing, its the manifestation of the Spirit of Yah specifically for the benefit of His people, and a sign to all to draw in others that they might believe also. We know that Yah is real, we've seen Him work and do things that only He can do!

There is no fault in boasting in the power of Yah, in HIS great works through the Holy Spirit, and giving Him all the glory the way Pastor Dowell does constantly. Yahshua did the same. Yahshua is gonna declare unto them who you mentioned - "I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice *lawlessness*."

So that I am not deceived, please point out the lawlessness in what Pastor Dowell says or does. Otherwise, that verse isn't directed towards Straitway.

My soul makes its boast in the LORD; The humble and downtrodden will hear it and rejoice (Psalm 34:2).

Some boast in chariots and some in horses,
But we will boast in the name of YAHUAH, our Elohim (Psalm 20:7).

But he who boasts is to boast in YAHUAH (2 Corinthians 10:17).

Therefore in Messiah Yahshua I have found reason for boasting in things pertaining to Elohim (Romans 15:17).

Should we refrain from boasting in the power of Yah for fear of the judgment of man? Not a chance.

Thank Yah that we have men of Yah calling attention to the power of Yah so that all may see and know that He's still doing miracles and healing right now to this very day, time, and hour because there are many out there who need to hear the Message and who need to be healed.

James 2: 14-17

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

How much more faith are we pouring into a brother who, upon hearing the message, he is also healed of his cancer or bad knees or back pain or whatever the case may be? We've just poured the love of Yah into his whole being, with a work that only Messiah can do. We can do all things through Christ who strengthens us! We should be about our Father's business in every regard, including exercising power in the Holy Spirit.

I'm not trying to turn this into a debate over Pastor Dowell. If we are continuing our discussion over the Holy Spirit and power and tongues, I'll do my best to keep everything in proper context. I reference Straitway as I do because that's where Yah sent me and thats where I am fed. But for the record, I am not a member of Straitway, yet Pastor Dowell is most certainly my pastor.

You have got part of what I said and missed the other part.

The part regarding "boasting" was about ministers boasting about the legitimacy of their ministry BECAUSE of miracles. Which is why I referred to the scripture in Matthew because those miracles will not guarantee entrance into the kingdom.

I referred to Pastor Dowell as an example because he was first mentioned by yourself, maybe I should have stated these TYPE of ministers when I gave my example because there are many.

I did clearly state in my post that

There are numerous reasons I do not listen to pastor dowell so wouldn't watch the video,

He is your pastor not mine.

but I will leave that there

So as I said I will leave that there.

There is a distinct difference between "boasting" IN YAH or "boasting" in the NAME of YAH and legitimizing ourselves BECAUSE of miracles.

I hope that clears it up for you.

Just to clarify, you referred to

Yahshua said and they shall know you by the love ye have one to another (John 13:35).

I was actually referring to

John 17:20-21 KJV — Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.


I think that my post was in all other points clear.

 

[Man_in_the_Middle]

Proof of Paul's conversion after being filled with the Holy Ghost..


Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Act 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
Saul Proclaims Jesus in Synagogues
Act 9:19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
Act 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
Act 9:21 But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests?
Act 9:22 But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.
...
Saul in Jerusalem
Act 9:26 And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple.
Act 9:27 But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.
Act 9:28 And he was with them coming in and going out at Jerusalem.
Act 9:29 And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him.
Act 9:30 Which when the brethren knew, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him forth to Tarsus.
Act 9:31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.


The brethern never asked if he spoke in tongues to see if he had been converted. It was never stated as evidence that he was converted.
Instead they spoke of another gift, the gift of preaching and teaching.

Please do not come back with Paul's claim that he spoke in tongues more than you all as this thread is about initial salvation and infilling of the Holy Spirit and not something that happens later. So, to those that claim that speaking in tongues is the proof of the infilling of the Holy Spirit, why didn't they use that criteria to determine if Paul was saved or not?

 

[steve]

why didn't they use that criteria to determine if Paul was saved or not?

We are not told that they didn’t.

 

[Man_in_the_Middle]

We are not told that they didn’t.

We ARE told of the proof offered...

and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.
And with this proof, they were satisfied..
Act 9:30 Which when the brethren knew, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him forth to Tarsus.
I don't want to fail to mention a similar infilling of the Holy Spirit where after the Holy Spirit filled them they prophecied but did not speak in tongues..

Luk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Luk 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
Luk 1:43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Luk 1:44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
Luk 1:45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

 

[steve]

We ARE told of the proof offered...

and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.
And with this proof, they were satisfied..
Act 9:30 Which when the brethren knew, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him forth to Tarsus.
I don't want to fail to mention a similar infilling of the Holy Spirit where after the Holy Spirit filled them they prophecied but did not speak in tongues..

Luk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Luk 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
Luk 1:43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Luk 1:44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
Luk 1:45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

My statement still stands.
Nowhere is it stated that that was the only proof.
I’m not claiming that it is absolutely necessary, I’m merely reacting to your statement.

 

[Man_in_the_Middle]

My statement still stands.
Nowhere is it stated that that was the only proof.
I’m not claiming that it is absolutely necessary, I’m merely reacting to your statement.

Fair enough... My personal story is that I was led by the spirit to go pray for my older brother once when I was around 11 or so. I began to pray but did not know what to pray for exactly and as I ran out of words, I began to speak in tongues. I was not transformed in that moment. I was already filled with the spirit but, naturally, everyone around made a big deal out of it as if I had just been filled with the spirit. I was already acting under the unction of the Holy Spirit beforehand. It was the first time I had spoke in tongues and while I was moved by the spirit it was not my infilling. I had long before turned my life over to living righteously before God. I have spoken in tongues many times since and it is always under the same circumstances. Praying through a burden beyond what my understanding is. Praying in the spirit... All the time? No, rarely. But often enough to know it is real...

 

[steve]

Praying through a burden beyond what my understanding is. Praying in the spirit... All the time? No, rarely.

Ahh shucks, if you keep living righteously you may find yourself living a life filled with burdens beyond your understanding to where you don’t miss a day of using the tool that He provided.