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Concubines... just a bit of mental jousting.

Solomon had 300 women of royal descent and had 700 concubines.
No, you are arbitrarily inserting one of the meanings for the word that was actually used. The actual wording was princesses.
1 Kings 11:3 (KJV) And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.
In the Song of Songs the same women were described as queens.
Song of Songs 6:8 (KJV) There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number.
Ok, the numbers differ but it is obvious that the same groupings of women are involved.

So, did the 6-700 princesses/queens already have that status before he married them? (Seems like a serious impossibility to find that many.)
Or were they elevated to that status at the marriage ceremony?

You can only argue from assumption. Scripture itself doesn’t define a princess as only born of royalty.
Yes, royal blood doth a princess make, (and where is the dividing line between royal and non?) but nowhere is it indicated that a female cannot be given that status by a king.
 
Well, I finally read through the whole thing. The verse was mentioned at the bottom of page 7 but no one noticed it provides the definition and no one refuted that it does.

Solomon had 300 women of royal descent and had 700 concubines.
That is the definition right there. A concubine was a woman who was not of royal descent.
If you are not a princess, then you are a concubine (after a man takes you).

My only conjecture is that the term can be relative to the status of the man.
If the man is a king, any of his women who is not a princess, is a concubine.
If the man is the head of a tribe, any of his women who is not the daughter of the head of a tribe, is a concubine.
If the man is 19th in command, any of his women who is the daughter of someone less than 19th in command is a concubine.

My speculation on how this came to be:
The fathers of the prestigious women, demanded that your other women be labeled as lower status, as a way to elevate their own daughter's status.
"If you ever take a woman who is lower class than my daughter, you had better give her a lower class title so everyone knows that mine was more prestigious. And you are going to vow that to me right now or you can't have her."

This is the only definition given in scripture, so it is the only one I hold to.
So then almost no women are “wives” as almost no women have royal lineage?
 
Well, I finally read through the whole thing. The verse was mentioned at the bottom of page 7 but no one noticed it provides the definition and no one refuted that it does.

Solomon had 300 women of royal descent and had 700 concubines.
That is the definition right there. A concubine was a woman who was not of royal descent.
If you are not a princess, then you are a concubine (after a man takes you).

My only conjecture is that the term can be relative to the status of the man.
If the man is a king, any of his women who is not a princess, is a concubine.
If the man is the head of a tribe, any of his women who is not the daughter of the head of a tribe, is a concubine.
If the man is 19th in command, any of his women who is the daughter of someone less than 19th in command is a concubine.

My speculation on how this came to be:
The fathers of the prestigious women, demanded that your other women be labeled as lower status, as a way to elevate their own daughter's status.
"If you ever take a woman who is lower class than my daughter, you had better give her a lower class title so everyone knows that mine was more prestigious. And you are going to vow that to me right now or you can't have her."

This is the only definition given in scripture, so it is the only one I hold to.

Today two things happened:
  1. I learned that I have been graced with the revered milestone called The Steve Award.
  2. I read your post above and recognized that we now need to create a new milestone, with you as its first recipient: The Philip Award, for exceeding excellence in service to our Father by adding meaning to Scripture where He clumsily forgot to add it Himself.
To be a concubine is not a matter of shame. You indicated in an earlier post somewhere that you have studied the manner in which the Greeks introduced monogamy-only in their efforts to destroy the tribal family systems in their efforts to establish centralized Statism. This is extra-scriptural, but concubinage was very directly and very purposefully addressed by those early manipulative Greek political philosophers: men were restricted to just one wife, but they were still permitted at that time to have mistresses and/or concubines -- and in that transition concubines were granted far more freedom than were wives. Initially all those labeled as those solitary wives got out of the deal was higher status, but they weren't even permitted to leave their homes for any reason except in the company of their husbands. A concubine was free to come and go from her residences as she pleased other than being required to be present when she was scheduled for sexual congress with her master, and her master was still required to provide her with housing, food, drink and a stipend. Concubines were also free to earn money outside the home in other manners other than providing sexual services but were expected to share their income with their household [ref: Ancient Society, by Lewis Henry Morgan]. I probably already wrote out all that earlier in this thread, but based on your assessment of what you read I fear I must have skipped it here. Some indication in Scripture exists to indicate God's displeasure in denigrating the tribal system He initiated with Abraham, but I challenge you to find an instance of Scripture rejecting the 6th-Century-BC Greek assertion of concubinage definition into the majority culture that dominated the Middle East thenceforth.

I always find it refreshing when a modern-day sister wife proudly labels herself as her man's concubine. To provide children for and service of a godly man's sexual needs is an honorable privilege.
 
Well, I finally read through the whole thing. The verse was mentioned at the bottom of page 7 but no one noticed it provides the definition and no one refuted that it does.

Solomon had 300 women of royal descent and had 700 concubines.
That is the definition right there. A concubine was a woman who was not of royal descent.
If you are not a princess, then you are a concubine (after a man takes you).

My only conjecture is that the term can be relative to the status of the man.
If the man is a king, any of his women who is not a princess, is a concubine.
If the man is the head of a tribe, any of his women who is not the daughter of the head of a tribe, is a concubine.
If the man is 19th in command, any of his women who is the daughter of someone less than 19th in command is a concubine.

My speculation on how this came to be:
The fathers of the prestigious women, demanded that your other women be labeled as lower status, as a way to elevate their own daughter's status.
"If you ever take a woman who is lower class than my daughter, you had better give her a lower class title so everyone knows that mine was more prestigious. And you are going to vow that to me right now or you can't have her."

This is the only definition given in scripture, so it is the only one I hold to.
Philip, I see how you have got to your conclusion. However, it is a major assumption, because there are multiple ways to interpret this verse. I feel that you have latched onto one interpretation and are asserting it as a fact. I also feel that you read this thread solely looking for any evidence to back your presupposition, rather than seeking to learn from others perspectives.

There is truth in your understanding, but only part of the truth, I don't think you're seeing the fundamental core truth yet but are latching onto a result of it only, not the core itself.

I agree with you that Solomon's queens were probably 'princesses' by birth - or rather noblewomen by birth as the word doesn't mean the same in Hebrew*. I have no problem with the idea that there were 700 important men (kings, smaller local rulers, tribal chiefs, rich landowners, wealthy merchants etc) who wanted to curry favour with the king by giving him their daughter in marriage. I myself assume that his 'wives' were those who came into his home formally, as part of a formal marriage which both united him with them and often formed part of a formal political alliance or at least an informal understanding of favour towards their father's tribe / business interests. And this means that the concubines may be those wives whom he took informally, without any such ulterior motive - they were not daughters of some rich guy, but rather a woman that Solomon chose himself because he wanted them specifically, but had no such formality and paperwork surrounding them.

You and I are essentially assuming the same scenario. But we take different conclusions from it.

1) You assume that the wives were called "wives" because they were of noble birth - and other women of high-status birth are also "wives", others of lower-status birth are "concubines".

2) I assume that the wives were called "wives" because they were taken by Solomon formally - and other women taken formally are "wives" and less formally are "concubines". The fact they were of noble birth is the reason he took them formally, not in itself the reason they were "wives".

This particular passage can be interpreted consistent with either of the above assertions. It does NOT prove your position any more than it proves my own.

To figure out which is closer to the truth, we have to consider other sources also. And when you consider other examples, such as what @Keith Martin has stated above, you find that the distinction between concubine / wife tends to be about the understood marriage terms / agreement / contract conditions. Obviously the nature of those conditions differs between times and cultures, but the distinction is about those conditions. This is consistent with my statement above (that they are wives or concubines depending on the conditions of their marriage), and not because of their birth status.

Today we still have the same distinctions between women based on conditions and formality, in the distinction between "legal wife" and "de-facto partner" - one has paperwork and clear legal status, one does not, but both are equally "wives" in the eyes of God.


*I agree with @steve that this status of noblewoman could have been given by Solomon himself but find this less likely. It seems more arbitrary and gives little reason for the distinction between wife and concubine other than Solomon's arbitrary choice, and I think that there's usually more of a reason behind things in scripture than that. If they were noblewomen because they were married to Solomon, then why weren't all 1000 of them noblewomen? How come the concubines were not considered noblewomen? And what message is scripture teaching us by including this?

Remember though that just because I find it "less likely" doesn't mean it's not true!
 
Here's the thing that gets me. Why were all 700 of the non-princesses, concubines? Why wasn't it 300 princesses, 350 concubines and 350 women who were neither princesses nor concubines? Why is every single one of his non-princess women a concubine? It seems too big of a coincidence. I think the best guess to explain this, is that the fathers of the non-concubines demand it. This doesn't negate any of the other scriptural observations of what is different about a concubine. I just see it as the basis.
 
I understand your question, but it's all too much speculation based on only one verse, ignoring other sources of information that clarify the situation. Once you look at other sources of information also and collate them all you can soon see what concubines were. And the answer is consistent with how the word is used in all instances, not just in Solomon's case.

By the way it's 300 concubines, 700 queens, which is an unimportant wee typo in your posts that I have been ignoring, I just realised if I don't point it out people will think I wasn't paying attention!
 
Another mental joust, no scripture to back it up:
For a long while I assumed it was arranged vs unarranged.
Meaning: A concubine is a woman you found on your own rather than someone or something else (like a parent or treaty or kingly reward) assigning her to you.
Could also say it as business vs love.
A normal woman is a good business deal. A concubine was not a good business deal and you took her only for love not for business.

p.s. I'm not here to teach or persuade, just to throw ideas around and see what sticks. I don't have the time or care to walk on eggshells. I'm just gonna say stuff fast bold and stupid and then let you tell me it was stupid. But, Samuel, as a former forums admin, I can understand you trying to keep everyone as civil as possible. Please no one think I came here as an expert to school you all. I just want to have fun talking about confusing stuff.
 
Since three examples of concubineage were servants given by their mistresses for the sole purpose of producing progeny, that doesn’t seem to be the case.
 
@Philip a speculation of mine is that the 300 concubines were the female part of the palace staff eliminating the opportunity for Shlomo to commit adultery... I.e., he may never have taken any of them, but they were not off limits to him so he could never be accused of adultery or some such. Sort of the equivalent to a eunuch in the court...
 
Another mental joust, no scripture to back it up:
For a long while I assumed it was arranged vs unarranged.
Meaning: A concubine is a woman you found on your own rather than someone or something else (like a parent or treaty or kingly reward) assigning her to you.
Could also say it as business vs love.
A normal woman is a good business deal. A concubine was not a good business deal and you took her only for love not for business.

p.s. I'm not here to teach or persuade, just to throw ideas around and see what sticks. I don't have the time or care to walk on eggshells. I'm just gonna say stuff fast bold and stupid and then let you tell me it was stupid. But, Samuel, as a former forums admin, I can understand you trying to keep everyone as civil as possible. Please no one think I came here as an expert to school you all. I just want to have fun talking about confusing stuff.
Now if you are describing Prince Harry and Megan, I totally think that this is the case.


Humor,folks.
Just humor.
 
Now if you are describing Prince Harry and Megan, I totally think that this is the case.

That poor schlub: he now has to spend the rest of his life on the leash of never being able to compensate enough for the fact that his wife sacrificed her unwillingness to live to prevent him from losing another important woman in his life, knowing also unconsciously that just being with him wasn't enough to make life living for her.
 
That poor schlub: he now has to spend the rest of his life on the leash of never being able to compensate enough for the fact that his wife sacrificed her unwillingness to live to prevent him from losing another important woman in his life, knowing also unconsciously that just being with him wasn't enough to make life living for her.
She’s going to dump him.
 
You’ve lost me here.

Oh, it's in the news that Harry disclosed that his wife was going to kill herself but only refrained from doing so because she didn't want him to have to lose another important woman in his life after what he went through due to losing his mother, Princess Diana.
 
Oh, it's in the news that Harry disclosed that his wife was going to kill herself but only refrained from doing so because she didn't want him to have to lose another important woman in his life after what he went through due to losing his mother, Princess Diana.
Oh good grief, he will never get back the contents of the Testicle Lock Box with that sword over him.
 
Oh good grief, he will never get back the contents of the Testicle Lock Box with that sword over him.
OK, we're back on the same page; whichever one of us was lost has now been found.
 
She’s going to dump him.
I agree. He's now so emasculated he can hardly retain much attractiveness to her. Some more manly man will appear soon no doubt. But he's rich enough for a divorce settlement to be a lucrative proposition.

Or, more likely, for her to THINK a divorce settlement would be lucrative, divorce him, find he actually owns nothing in his name as it's all property of the crown so no cash is forthcoming, and then get a lucrative deal with a women's magazine claiming she can't get any divorce money because she's black and the royal family is racist...
 
Another mental joust, no scripture to back it up:
For a long while I assumed it was arranged vs unarranged.
Meaning: A concubine is a woman you found on your own rather than someone or something else (like a parent or treaty or kingly reward) assigning her to you.
Could also say it as business vs love.
A normal woman is a good business deal. A concubine was not a good business deal and you took her only for love not for business.

p.s. I'm not here to teach or persuade, just to throw ideas around and see what sticks. I don't have the time or care to walk on eggshells. I'm just gonna say stuff fast bold and stupid and then let you tell me it was stupid. But, Samuel, as a former forums admin, I can understand you trying to keep everyone as civil as possible. Please no one think I came here as an expert to school you all. I just want to have fun talking about confusing stuff.
I think that's closer to correct, because it's close to the formal vs informal marriage distinction that I believe is the core difference. @steve correctly points out where the arranged vs love understanding falls over - but those examples that don't fit are all informal marriages, they might have been "arranged" by an existing wife but they're still ultimately not really "good business deals", just something informal done within the family. Shift it to concubines being "informal" marriage and it all fits.
 
Since three examples of concubineage were servants given by their mistresses for the sole purpose of producing progeny, that doesn’t seem to be the case.
I'm not sure a mistress arranging it would count, as they are already in the family vs making a deal to the outside world.
 
@Philip a speculation of mine is that the 300 concubines were the female part of the palace staff eliminating the opportunity for Shlomo to commit adultery... I.e., he may never have taken any of them, but they were not off limits to him so he could never be accused of adultery or some such. Sort of the equivalent to a eunuch in the court...
This is a very interesting thought... a hedge to protect the king from adultery.
Regarding them being "palace staff" there is support for this idea from King David who left his concubines to care for the palace when he fled Jerusalem from Avshalom.
David may have taught Solomon himself of this useful hedge, ironically considering how David suffered from the Bathsheba ordeal.
 
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