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Divorce: Are all unions ordained by God in the first place?

I’m still left wondering where it says that anyone comes out of the lake of fire. In order for this hypothesis to make even a whiff of sense, it seems to me that there must be something like that to indicate that even if the aeon is not everlasting but only for a determined length of time, that at the end of that length of time that there is something to come out of the lake of fire as opposed to total annihilation.

Its kind of like the eternal fire of Sodom and Gomorrah. What difference does it make if it doesnt burn eternally, but the effects are eternal? You are probably correct to point out that those fires are not still burning. It doesnt help the inhabitants of either city today.
 
Acts 3:21Heaven must take Him in until the time comes for the restoration of all things, which God announced long ago through His holy prophets. 22For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your brothers. You must listen to Him in everything He tells you.f 23Everyone who does not listen to Him will be completely cut off from among his people.g24Indeed, all the prophets from Samuel on, as many as have spoken, have proclaimed these days. 25And you are sons of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers, when He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all the families of the earth will be blessed.’h 26When God raised up His servant, He sent Him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.”

1 Corinthians 15:25 For He must reign auntil He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be aabolished is death.

If Hell is still present at the end, then death is not the last enemy.
 
I’m still left wondering where it says that anyone comes out of the lake of fire. In order for this hypothesis to make even a whiff of sense, it seems to me that there must be something like that to indicate that even if the aeon is not everlasting but only for a determined length of time, that at the end of that length of time that there is something to come out of the lake of fire as opposed to total annihilation.

Its kind of like the eternal fire of Sodom and Gomorrah. What difference does it make if it doesnt burn eternally, but the effects are eternal? You are probably correct to point out that those fires are not still burning. It doesnt help the inhabitants of either city today.
Exactly.
IF (a big IF) someone could come out of the lake of fire and escape everlasting punishment, there would be equal possibility for someone to come out of everlasting life since the duration for each is expressed in exactly the same way.
If we start with what is written and stick with that, we avoid speculative error. Everlasting life is as everlasting as everlasting punishment and everlasting punishment is as everlasting as everlasting life.
 
I’m having a hard time seeing where anyone comes out of the lake of fire in what you quoted. Especially when it says that anyone who doesnt listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people.

And per Rev 20:13, 14, both Death and Hell deliver up the dead that are in them for judgement and they are sentenced/judged according to their works, then both Death and Hell are cast into the lake of fire. Followed by (or simultaneously with) those whose names are not found recorded in the book of Life.
 
I am sorry but I can not do justice to the vast amounts of information that is out there on this subject. Like I said, if you want to see it it's easily available. I believe it to be true. I see no benefit in God losing a part of creation. And for God to great a place of everlasting punishment, based on my understanding of God's Laws of justice does not fit. And I do not buy the argument that we can not know God's justice. If that was true, why would He create a bible to explain all this to us in the first place. He wants us to know about Him.

I am assuming there is no Torah Law establishing an eternal hell, since no one brought it forth.
 
I get that you believe something different than I do, and thats ok. (Which means I respect your right to believe it regardless of whether I respect your belief) Until someone is able to explain how there is no one that comes out of the lake of fire at some point, I really see no reason to go down that rabbit hole. Time is too valuable to chase (prove/disprove) someone else’s preferences at apparent contradiction to plain scripture.
 
I'm sharing the following just as food for thought within this particular discussion. I guess the question we have to ask ourselves is: did our Father mean what He said through Paul's mouth in I Corinthians 15:26 that the last enemy to be destroyed will be death itself?

*************

The Lake of Fire
(from Is Hell Eternal? Or Will God’s Plan Fail, chapter 11 (abridged & edited) Pittsburgh Bible Institute, 1920)

There are only three chapters in the Bible that distinctly mention “the lake of fire.” They are Revelation 19, 20 and 21. In order to have them clearly before us we will quote each passage.

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone (19:20).​

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for the ages of the ages (20:10).​

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hades delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire (20:13-15).​

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death (21:8).​

… and Brimstone

Notice that the lake of fire specifically signifies “a fire burning with brimstone,”

… a lake of fire burning with brimstone (19:20).​

… the lake of fire and brimstone (20:10).​

… the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone (21:8).​

The word “brimstone” defines the character of the fire. The word theion translated “brimstone” is exactly the same word theion, which means “divine.” The verb derived from theion is theioo, which means to hallow, to make divine. Divine purification and divine consecration are the meaning in Greek: a “lake of fire and brimstone” would mean a “lake of divine purification.”

In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it. “The lake of fire” does not appear in Scripture until the introduction to the Millennium. Toward the end of the age called the Millennium, Satan and his helpers are to be cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone and “tormented” there.

The word “torment” needs study. In the New Testament the same word is used of one “sick of the palsy, grievously tormented” (Matthew 8:6). It is used of the disciples’ ship in Galilee, and is translated “tossed with waves” (Matthew 14:24). It is translated by the word “toiling” in Mark 6:48. It is translated by the word “vexed” in speaking of Lot (II Peter 2:8). It is translated by a word that means “birth-pains” (Revelation 12:2). In the other Scriptures it is translated by the word “torment” or “tormented.”

The original idea of the verb is to put to the test by rubbing on a touchstone. The original idea was to test some metal that looked like gold to find whether it was real or not. The meaning and usage of this word harmonizes with the idea of divine purification and testing. Through the hidden, loving purpose of God, this will be a birth-pang; and the grace of God will not be absent – as He says,

Behold, I am making all things new (21:5).​

God will leave no spot in the whole universe unrenewed.

Every knee shall bow (Philippians 2:10 11).​

The Second Death

There is another phrase that throws further light upon this great theme and that is “the second death,”

… the lake of fire. This is the second death (20:13-15).​

… in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death (21:8).​

In death Christ conquered him who had the power of death.

Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death He might destroy him having the power of death – that is, the devil (Hebrews 2:14).​

So then the death of Christ made provision for the death of death.

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil (I John 3:8).​

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death (I Corinthians 15:26).​

When this last enemy is destroyed there will be a universe without death; then all things will have been made new; then the Son will hand over a finished work to the Father. This world is especially concerned with the forces of good and the forces of evil, and is the seed plot of the universe. It was the place where our Lord was born and died, where He is to come again and reap the fruits of His victory. This world has been the theater for the heading up of evil and its final overthrow, so, not only is this world the seed plot, but also the greatest battlefield in the universe.

The lake of fire will yield to the renewing work of Him who makes “all things new” (21:5). The divine purification will be complete; Christ becomes All and in all, that God “may be All in all.”

*************

Again, just food for thought, but when added to the fact that four separate Biblical Hebrew and Greek words, none of which originally meant Hell or eternal conscious torment (even 'hades' was a word that only meant a place of temporary punishment) began to all be purposefully translated (in the 4th Century AD, I believe) as 'Hell,' I'm thinking that absorbing these concepts is just yet another one of those 'gateway drugs' like (a) Biblical polygamy and (b) improperly equating ekklesia and what we now know as 'church' that can lead one to a more full understanding of God and His Love.

I do get how attached our individual Christian religions have programmed us to be to the notion that 99.7% of all humanity will end up being tormented consciously for eternity. Selfishly thankful that we and our own loved ones have been lucky enough to stumble upon the one strategy for avoiding it, we've been lulled into a numbness that allows us to callously ignore the fact that the vast majority of our brothers and sisters on Earth would end up going through eternal suffering for having failed to grasp knowledge we ourselves might not have grasped had we just had different parents and unlucky enough to have been born in a land bereft of Christianity. Why should we care about all those idiots who didn't get it right like we do?

We've been scared into the pews (and had our dollars and dimes scared out of our pockets to fund the corporate churches) by those who inculcate a deep fear that we're all doomed unless we comply with whatever step-and-fetch-it dogmas our priests and pastors and Holy Roman Emperors have saddled us with. But what if that was never God's intention -- either to consign the vast majority of us to the kind of eternal torment more likely thought up by a deranged human being, or to use the fear of such a fate as His only way to make us love, worship and glorify Him? What if He has never been limited to something so hateful? What if John 3:16 and Romans 5:18 actually mean what they say?

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16)

Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. (Isaiah 45:23)

It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.'"
(Romans 14:11)

Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
(Romans 5:18)

For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ, the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. (I Corinthians 15:21-26) (all NIV)

If we have an All-Powerful God; if by believing in the Resurrection of His Son He has promised us all (whoever believes in Him) life for the ages in Heaven after death; if upon His Son's second coming every knee will acknowledge Him and bow before Him; if His Son's righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people; if, just as in Adam all were subject to death but are also all to be made alive by Christ; and if the last enemy that will be abolished is death itself, why are we to conclude that when God says all He doesn't mean all?​
 
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I'm sharing the following just as food for thought within this particular discussion. I guess the question we have to ask ourselves is: did our Father mean what He said through Paul's mouth in I Corinthians 15:26 that the last enemy to be destroyed will be death itself?
I’d say the more pertinent question would be, Did our Father mean what you think He meant in 1Cor 15:26? (Keep in mind the context for the whole chapter is for believers, or at least those who claim the name of Christ.)
Or that Paul’s general statement contradicts or overrides Johns more specific statement.
 
why are we to conclude that when God says all He doesn't mean all?
Because that's clearly what the context indicates. E.g Luke 2:1; And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.
So, did that include the Chinese or does "all" in Luke 2:1 mean less than everyone everywhere on the planet? Cheers
 
Because that's clearly what the context indicates. E.g Luke 2:1; And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.
So, did that include the Chinese or does "all" in Luke 2:1 mean less than everyone everywhere on the planet? Cheers

In that case, is salvation to all or less than everyone? Somewhere it has to be understood about God's overall plan for His Creation. Either His Creation is very good or He is willing to take a loss.
 
The main issue I have when reading the last couple of posts from @Cap and @Keith is the same question that @Verifyveritas76 appears to be getting at in his last post.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death (I Corinthians 15:26).
When this last enemy is destroyed there will be a universe without death; then all things will have been made new
If Hell is still present at the end, then death is not the last enemy.
I take "death being destroyed" to mean "nobody will die any more".
@Cap and @Keith Martin take "death being destroyed" to mean "everybody who has died in the past is raised back to life, and nobody will die any more".

This assumption is then used as the basis for a lot of further reasoning. However my fundamental concern is that this assumption itself is flawed. It is an addition of extra assumptions that you are thinking occur at the same time that "death is destroyed", but are not actually clearly stated in scripture.

When asked for any evidence that anybody comes out of hell, the primary verses given as evidence have been:
The last enemy that will be abolished is death
and
Behold, I am making all things new (21:5).
And various other peripheral verses also, but I'm trimming back to the key arguments here for brevity.

Neither of these verses (or any other verse that has been cited) states that anybody comes out of hell. Rather, @Cap and @Keith Martin interpret them to mean that people come out of hell, because this is where their logical reasoning has taken them. However, the verses themselves do not actually state this.
  • Abolishing death most simply means that nobody will die any more. Any extra is an assumption that must be justified from elsewhere.
  • "I am making all things new": He is making a new heaven and a new earth. To assume that this also includes re-making or restoring all people who have ever existed in the past is once again an additional assumption that would need to be supported from elsewhere.
I do appreciate there is a lot more in @Keith Martin's latest post than that, but I am trimming back to the fundamentals and stating why I find the arguments unconvincing.
 
I am staying out of the debate and willing to let those smarter than my self duke it out, but I do have an observation.
While I don’t want people to choose salvation simply to avoid an eternal damnation, the idea that we are all going to wind up in the same place could give people the understanding that they have the option to live like hell with no final consequences.
 
...give people the understanding that they have the option to live like hell with no final consequences.

I don't believe this is at all being advocated. Everything we do has consequences. There is a reason for the 'lake of fire' and why some go there and some don't. It's all in God's judgment to make creation right according to Him. Hell is hell and it serves a purpose, the argument here is that it's just not eternal and God will find away to restore all to it's proper place in the future.
 
The main issue I have when reading the last couple of posts from @Cap and @Keith is the same question that @Verifyveritas76 appears to be getting at in his last post.


I take "death being destroyed" to mean "nobody will die any more".
@Cap and @Keith Martin take "death being destroyed" to mean "everybody who has died in the past is raised back to life, and nobody will die any more".

This assumption is then used as the basis for a lot of further reasoning. However my fundamental concern is that this assumption itself is flawed. It is an addition of extra assumptions that you are thinking occur at the same time that "death is destroyed", but are not actually clearly stated in scripture.

When asked for any evidence that anybody comes out of hell, the primary verses given as evidence have been:

and

And various other peripheral verses also, but I'm trimming back to the key arguments here for brevity.

Neither of these verses (or any other verse that has been cited) states that anybody comes out of hell. Rather, @Cap and @Keith Martin interpret them to mean that people come out of hell, because this is where their logical reasoning has taken them. However, the verses themselves do not actually state this.
  • Abolishing death most simply means that nobody will die any more. Any extra is an assumption that must be justified from elsewhere.
  • "I am making all things new": He is making a new heaven and a new earth. To assume that this also includes re-making or restoring all people who have ever existed in the past is once again an additional assumption that would need to be supported from elsewhere.
I do appreciate there is a lot more in @Keith Martin's latest post than that, but I am trimming back to the fundamentals and stating why I find the arguments unconvincing.

All of this still glosses over the fact that aion does not mean everlasting. Maybe it is an assumption on what happens after hell, but so is what happens in an eternal life.
 
All of this still glosses over the fact that aion does not mean everlasting. Maybe it is an assumption on what happens after hell, but so is what happens in an eternal life.
As others have stated, that is irrelevant, as aion is used to describe both life and death. Your claim is that people leave aion death and enter aion life - in other words, you are claiming that aion life is substantially longer than aion death. Are you claiming that aion life is everlasting, but aion death is not? Or that aion life is longer than aion death, but both cease eventually? Either statement may be plausible - but must be backed up from elsewhere, as the word "aion"' itself does not tell you that one is shorter than the other, but rather suggests both are the same. So any difference needs to be found in another scripture, this too is not the answer to the question.

If people come out of hell, where is this stated? If aion death is short and aion life is long, where is this stated?
 
I don't believe this is at all being advocated. Everything we do has consequences. There is a reason for the 'lake of fire' and why some go there and some don't. It's all in God's judgment to make creation right according to Him. Hell is hell and it serves a purpose, the argument here is that it's just not eternal and God will find away to restore all to it's proper place in the future.
final consequences.
 
You are transposing the word aion with everlasting and making it interchangable. That's not what is being said, the word is translated age abiding. And age abiding is determined by God. They do not have to be the same. We live in an age abiding life on Earth. There are age abiding despensations. The idea of creation in 7 days is age abiding. No one really knows how long they are but they end or change to another period of time. Making them equal to the next does not work. It is up to God's timing. Mathew 25 could be translated punishment for an age and life for an age, to totally different periods of time, but defined by God.

Guess we will find out, but it just occurred to me, the prodigals son's brother was mad that he didn't get his just punishment, and
Jonah was mad that Ninevah didn't either. Maybe this all causes the same issue. Just thinking out loud.
 
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Somewhere it has to be understood about God's overall plan for His Creation.

exactly!

That plan is for freewill to love Him by their free choice. You seem to be asserting that God is going to use Hell to persuade all free-wills to eventually come to love. It has already been shown that in some (the Pharaoh of Moses time for example) that punishment can harden the heart and does not always soften it. Those who do not respond to the goodness of God now, will only be hardened further by His punishment later. The punishment of eternity will not be considered a "loss" by the Father for it will serve as a warning to future generations. Those spared the punishment because of its eternal presence will outnumber those punished ad Infinium. Hell will actually be a cheap investment in the process of guiding future generations of free-wills to obedience yet respecting the justice of God in the process. If the Love of God and the blood of Jesus does not persuade and save one now, Hell will not do it later.

God is willing that none should perish, true. yet they do.
Jesus would have gathered Israel as a hen gathered and protects her chicks, yet they would not.

Rev. 22
10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


Isaiah 66
22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.


23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

God will not Lose the souls of those which reject his love. Their punishment will not be a wasted effort. They will serve as a warning to future generations.
 
aion does not mean everlasting

That is your arbitrary opinion, not in keeping with the dictionary definition.

"I am making all things new": He is making a new heaven and a new earth. To assume that this also includes re-making or restoring all people who have ever existed in the past is once again an additional assumption that would need to be supported from elsewhere.

And it so happens we have a long description of what this new heaven and new earth will be like (and new bodies for the righteous who go there) and zero description of people leaving hell (or of them getting new bodies).


IIRC I have read this book. It is weighty (large) but good. Can't say for sure though as it's in storage.
 
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