So lot married his daughters…The relationship wasn’t cursed and it did result in children. I don’t think we should read too much into it though. Obviously. Description versus prescription….
So lot married his daughters…The relationship wasn’t cursed and it did result in children. I don’t think we should read too much into it though. Obviously. Description versus prescription….
Your interpretation cancels out headship and father authority.You really want to avoid the most widely accepted translations don’t you? I’ve never even heard of that one.
But yes, you do just need to read the text. The seduction of the virgin obligated the man. The one flesh was formed. In this instance though, if another set of circumstances arises (the father utterly refuse to give her to him) then there is a set course of action. The man still has to pay the bride price, but note that the passage says nothing about the status of the woman nor does it say that the one flesh is dissolved. The text is silent on the status of the couple or whether or not the woman is eligible for remarriage.
This is not a passage about how to form one flesh. It is a passage about how to handle conflict between in-laws
What about Lot’s daughters? Catie posed that question to me. The law had not been given forbidding that relationship.
From that union came Moab, and prohibitions that later lasted 10 generations. And a lot of other problems.Therefore it was not violating a law. Did Lot’s daughters marry themselves to their father? Certainly something to think about in this discussion.
I wasn't intending it to be insulting. However, the understanding that you have is sufficient to understand the situations in your own life. It is not sufficient to comfortably explain other situations though.These statements seem in conflict with each other and a little insulting.
I’ve been very clear in the past that I am a convicted adulterer. I am deserving of death in this area. Knowing how not to commit adultery in the future is not a “cop out”. It’s literally why I even have a theology. Not sinning, and knowing how to teach my children to not sin, is why I read the Bible at all.
Are you sure you meant that that way?
It sounds like it.So lot married his daughters…
You’re following a familiar path, running to every story about the actions of flawed sinners and trying to treat them like direct commands from God. There are direct teachings about sex and one flesh. We don’t have to read the chicken guts of Jacob’s actions. Jacob is kind of famous for periodically being a jackass. His response to his daughter getting raped is not an expose on God’s views of marriage.Your interpretation cancels out headship and father authority.
Jacob - after his daughter was raped - he did not assume they were married. They discussed the potential marriage or no marriage. Was Jacob’s understanding wrong? Was he sinning by considering to pull the breaks on that potential marriage?
You’re ignoring what Exodus 22:16-17 says. Your conclusion means that another man is allowed to rape another man’s virgin daughter, and they automatically become married. Even though in the Torah the man has a choice in marriage, and in the Torah the father (her covering) has the authority to stop the marriage from happening as well.You’re following a familiar path, running to every story about the actions of flawed sinners and trying to treat them like direct commands from God. There are direct teachings about sex and one flesh. We don’t have to read the chicken guts of Jacob’s actions. Jacob is kind of famous for periodically being a jackass. His response to his daughter getting raped is not an expose on God’s views of marriage.
And headship and fatherly author are not in this verse. Headship is in Paul. Fatherly authority is a nebulous thing. It is not well defined or even explicitly advocated for.
I can’t help you here bud. You hang an entire theology on this one verse, a verse I’ve demonstrated was never designed to support the weight your hanging on it. The verse only applies to a father who can physically block possession. It has nothing to do with a father consenting. A father who refused consent but could not block possession has no recourse under this verse. It is not about the father’s consent.You’re ignoring what Exodus 22:16-17 says
Which is why it’s so important we adhere to God’s teachings on it and not the opinions of men.which is a sin that carries a promise of destruction.
Exactamundo. And now you see why Christianity is in such a crisis.Your reasoning means that every day there are Christians marrying adulterous women
It clearly is, over and over again it’s all that the Bible teaches on the subject.It’s clearly not what the Torah says
That’s one translation; even if that’s the right one isn’t a distinction without a difference? And you still haven’t found a biblically based way to accomplish said marriage.The Torah says if a man seduces a virgin - he must marry her.
It does. In multiple places. Explicitly.It doesn’t say - he is now married to her:
What is the difference between must and is? And once again, how do you accomplish the marriage? If sex doesn’t do it then what does? And please tell us how the Bible says to accomplish said marriage. Your personal alteration of criminal trials doesn’t cut it. Remember, the his carries the death penalty. The teaching needs to be clear and explicit.Exodus 22:16
If a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged to anyone and has sex with her, he must pay the customary bride price and marry her.
While the position that I am holding - that possession of a woman actually matters - still works fine in the borderline cases. If you possess a woman, you can legitimately have sex with her, becoming one flesh.