Does a single woman always need her father’s approval to marry?

[Deesee25]

No, I don't think it is. It just appears to be a disagreement because we use words differently. Exodus 22:16-17 is a very good illustration of how we agree, provided you explain it without using that pesky extraBiblical word "marriage".

When a man and woman have sex, they become one flesh. The father, vows, covenants, whatever have nothing to do with it. They're one flesh because they had sex.

But if the man is a complete bastard the father's obviously going to refuse to actually let him run off with his daughter - if he would have refused had that man asked his permission to marry, the fact that the man then managed to seduce the daughter is not exactly going to endear the father to him. This verse describes the fact that the father may refuse to physically hand over the daughter. It's all about possession.

And this is something I actually learned from you! I'm sure you've said it more clearly than this in the hundreds of posts you've made on it, but a quick forum search gave me this from way back in 2016, and you've stuck to it consistently ever since:

And to clarify in a more recent thread:

It's all about possession.

Now, what do you need to actually physically have a wife living in your home and sleeping in your bed? Both "one flesh" and possession - you actually need to have her physically with you if you're going to have a marriage with her. If her father won't give her to you, then you "aren't bound because of some one else's intransigence", and are "freed from the marriage" - your own words, as quoted above. Because you need BOTH possession and one flesh to actually have a wife. Which you have repeatedly said yourself for at least 8 years.

I agree it would seem that marriage tends to take possession of her you claim her to be your own. Whether its from her consent or her "coverings" consent (father, mother, uncle, etc). I think Genesis 2:24 is simply a description of what happens when a male and female come together not saying this is what a marriage actually is.

I do question if marriage actually means she has to live in your house you take care of her etc. Because there's a verse in Isisah that talks about a time where women will say they want to be yours but will provide their own food and clothing and just want to be known as your woman only. Here's the reference:

And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach. - Isaiah 4:1

 

[FollowingHim]

I do question if marriage actually means she has to live in your house you take care of her etc.

No, you don't have to live together. Rather consider "possession" being the state of being able to say "this is my woman" and "this is my man". How you practically live will depend on circumstances.

 

[Deesee25]

No, you don't have to live together. Rather consider "possession" being the state of being able to say "this is my woman" and "this is my man". How you practically live will depend on circumstances.

But that doesn't constitue to a "marriage license" though right?

 

[The Revolting Man]

The Torah says if a man takes a woman’s virginity “he must marry her.” It does not say “he is now married to her.” This implies the man still has a choice. A choice to obey or dis obey. A choice to marry her (obedience), or not marry her (dis obedience).

And that is only if her father approves. Based on her comment about asking the King - that tells me she knew her father had final authority. Which is what it says in the Torah:

Exodus 22:17
But if her father refuses to let him marry her, the man must still pay him an amount equal to the bride price of a virgin

Her father may of said no because that’s her brother - but nonetheless - she knew her father had final authority in allowing or dis allowing the marriage to proceed. So one flesh union (sexual relations) alone does not constitute a marriage. The case of Tamar and Jacob’s daughter - is just supporting evidence that the taking of a woman’s virginity alone does not constitute to marriage.

You’re nuts. A father can allow an incestuous brother/sister marriage, in direct violation of the Law? Did you read that before you hit “Post reply”? I’ve heard you say that Christ couldn’t have changed the Law and then you turn around and say any random father can? If you want to be taken seriously then be serious. Laying with your sister carries a mandatory death penalty. David could not have okayed that on any level.

 

[The Revolting Man]

The Torah says if a man takes a woman’s virginity “he must marry her.” It does not say “he is now married to her.” This implies the man still has a choice. A choice to obey or dis obey. A choice to marry her (obedience), or not marry her (dis obedience).

And that is only if her father approves. Based on her comment about asking the King - that tells me she knew her father had final authority. Which is what it says in the Torah:

Exodus 22:17
But if her father refuses to let him marry her, the man must still pay him an amount equal to the bride price of a virgin

Her father may of said no because that’s her brother - but nonetheless - she knew her father had final authority in allowing or dis allowing the marriage to proceed. So one flesh union (sexual relations) alone does not constitute a marriage. The case of Tamar and Jacob’s daughter - is just supporting evidence that the taking of a woman’s virginity alone does not constitute to marriage.

And how does a man marry a woman? I know what you say it isn’t, what do you say it is? How do you form a valid marriage in God’s eyes?

 

[OttoM]

You’re nuts. A father can allow an incestuous brother/sister marriage, in direct violation of the Law? Did you read that before you hit “Post reply”? I’ve heard you say that Christ couldn’t have changed the Law and then you turn around and say any random father can? If you want to be taken seriously then be serious. Laying with your sister carries a mandatory death penalty. David could not have okayed that on any level.

You’re missing the point. The Torah does not say “once a man takes a woman’s virginity - he becomes married to her.”

It says - “he must marry her.” So the implication is a choice. He can choose not to marry her. Also her father can refuse to approve the marriage - which is something the daughter of King David clearly understood.

Jacob’s daughter was taken by a man from a completely different family. Same case - just because he took her virginity - it did not mean they were already married.

 

[MemeFan]

You’re missing the point. The Torah does not say “once a man takes a woman’s virginity - he becomes married to her.”

It says - “he must marry her.” So the implication is a choice. He can choose not to marry her. Unless her father refuses to approve the marriage - which is something the daughter of King David understood.

Jacob’s daughter was taken by a man from a completely different family. Same case - just because he took her virginity - it did not mean they were already married.

Or it could mean don't treat her as prostitute. Empty balls and disappear.

 

[Deesee25]

You’re missing the point. The Torah does not say “once a man takes a woman’s virginity - he becomes married to her.”

It says - “he must marry her.” So the implication is a choice. He can choose not to marry her. Also her father can refuse to approve the marriage - which is something the daughter of King David clearly understood.

Jacob’s daughter was taken by a man from a completely different family. Same case - just because he took her virginity - it did not mean they were already married.

Yeah exactly it doesn't make any sense. If sex=marriage there would be a choice for him to do so as he would be automatically married to her and father couldn't refuse anything because she now belong to him. I think people take genesis 2:24 too literally. I think it's more of a description of a male and female relationship NOT the definition of a marriage.

 

[OttoM]

And how does a man marry a woman? I know what you say it isn’t, what do you say it is? How do you form a valid marriage in God’s eyes?

2 Corinthians 13:1
“The facts of every case must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses”

Deut. 19:15
A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

If a man wants to take a woman as his wife - who is available for marriage - and her own father approves of it - then should it be done by testimony of two or three witnesses. So two or three witnesses that testify to the fact.

If it was me adding a wife - I would do a simple commitment ceremony on the beach with very close friends, and family. Each man - as head of his own household - can do what he thinks is best, because Scripture doesn’t go into detail on this subject.

 

[The Revolting Man]

You’re missing the point. The Torah does not say “once a man takes a woman’s virginity - he becomes married to her.”

It says - “he must marry her.” So the implication is a choice. He can choose not to marry her. Also her father can refuse to approve the marriage - which is something the daughter of King David clearly understood.

Jacob’s daughter was taken by a man from a completely different family. Same case - just because he took her virginity - it did not mean they were already married.

I’m not missing the point, you made a really dumb point. And you still have to tell me exactly how to form a valid marriage according to scripture.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Yeah exactly it doesn't make any sense. If sex=marriage there would be a choice for him to do so as he would be automatically married to her and father couldn't refuse anything because she now belong to him. I think people take genesis 2:24 too literally. I think it's more of a description of a male and female relationship NOT the definition of a marriage.

The only problem with that is everywhere we see “marriage” being described, including in passages about how to dissolve them, it is described as one flesh, tying it directly to Genesis 2.

 

[OttoM]

Yeah exactly it doesn't make any sense. If sex=marriage there would be a choice for him to do so as he would be automatically married to her and father couldn't refuse anything because she now belong to him. I think people take genesis 2:24 too literally. I think it's more of a description of a male and female relationship NOT the definition of a marriage.

In Genesis it’s simply a description - that is all. It is the ideal circumstance in a perfect world. But we live in a fallen and Torah-less (lawless) world.

And Torah is clear - the man has a choice - and also the girl’s father can step in and take authority position over his own daughter - and deny the marriage from taking place (even if the man wanted to proceed with the marriage).

 

[Deesee25]

2 Corinthians 13:1
“The facts of every case must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses”

Deut. 19:15
A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

If a man wants to take a woman as his wife - who is available for marriage - and her own father approves of it - then should it be done by testimony of two or three witnesses. So two or three witnesses that testify to the fact.

If it was me adding a wife - I would do a simple commitment ceremony on the beach with very close friends, and family. Each man - as head of his own household - can do what he thinks is best, because Scripture doesn’t go into detail on this subject.

But a "marriage" was mostly about ownership her belonging to a man. The Bible never says that marriage has to have a witness or a priest or governor. All of that is man-made tradition.

At best could agree covenant but all a covenant is an agreement. To simply say she is your woman and her or her father whoever her covering is agrees to it. That's it. Back in Rome there's instances we're a couple would just move in together and be considered married. No ceremony or anything. There's even cases of people marrying each other with no witnesses or vows.

If you want to do that that's fine but there's nowhere in scripture that says that's required.

 

[OttoM]

I’m not missing the point, you made a really dumb point. And you still have to tell me exactly how to form a valid marriage according to scripture.

What is sin is to add or take away from Torah. If YAHUAH’s Torah says the father can deny the one flesh union from turning into a marriage - and you think otherwise - then you’re in error:

Exodus 22:16-17
”If a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged to anyone and has sex with her, he must pay the customary bride price and marry her. 17 But if her father refuses to let him marry her, the man must still pay him an amount equal to the bride price of a virgin

 

[The Revolting Man]

2 Corinthians 13:1
“The facts of every case must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses”

Deut. 19:15
A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

If a man wants to take a woman as his wife - who is available for marriage - and her own father approves of it - then should it be done by testimony of two or three witnesses. So two or three witnesses that testify to the fact.

If it was me adding a wife - I would do a simple commitment ceremony on the beach with very close friends, and family. Each man - as head of his own household - can do what he thinks is best, because Scripture doesn’t go into detail on this subject.

Neither of those passages have anything to do with marriage. Deuteronomy is specifically about criminal cases and 2 Corinthians is about unrepentant sinners in the assembly.

You don’t have any scripture actually about marriage?

 

[The Revolting Man]

In Genesis it’s simply a description - that is all. It is the ideal circumstance in a perfect world. But we live in a fallen and Torah-less (lawless) world.

And Torah is clear - the man has a choice - and also the girl’s father can step in and take authority position over his own daughter - and deny the marriage from taking place (even if the man wanted to proceed with the marriage).

How. Do. You. Form. A. Marriage. According. To. Scripture?

Witnesses have nothing to do with it unless you’re holding some passage back for a coup de grace.

 

[The Revolting Man]

But a "marriage" was mostly about ownership her belonging to a man. The Bible never says that marriage has to have a witness or a priest or governor. All of that is man-made tradition.

At best could agree covenant but all a covenant is an agreement. To simply say she is your woman and her or her father whoever her covering is agrees to it. That's it. Back in Rome there's instances we're a couple would just move in together and be considered married. No ceremony or anything. There's even cases of people marrying each other with no witnesses or vows.

If you want to do that that's fine but there's nowhere in scripture that says that's required.

Fantastic, now we need some scripture to back it up and we’re done here. So what’s your scripture?

 

[FollowingHim]

But that doesn't constitue to a "marriage license" though right?

No - but a "marriage licence" may be an optional component. The point is that the man and woman understand that they are "his woman" / "her man", and so does her father and the others around them. She is assigned to him. The most detailed examples of this in scripture are the marriages of Rebecca to Isaac, and of Leah & Rachel to Jacob. Scripture describes in detail how it was determined that Rebecca would be assigned to Isaac, and how Leah & Rachel would be assigned to Jacob. None involved a "marriage licence", but each was a process by which everyone involved came to clearly understand that this woman now belonged to that man. The only scriptural example that involved paperwork, and only if you consider the Apocrypha scripture, was the marriage of Tobias to Sara - and even there the paperwork was just written up by her father, it had nothing to do with the government. In a modern setting people MAY choose to get a marriage licence to formalise the fact that they now are assigned to each other, but it is not necessary nor is it at all scriptural. However if they do choose to do it, it is a document that both have signed which confirms this fact.

 

[The Revolting Man]

What is sin is to add or take away from Torah. If YAHUAH’s Torah says the father can deny the one flesh union from turning into a marriage - and you think otherwise - then you’re in error:

Exodus 22:16-17
”If a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged to anyone and has sex with her, he must pay the customary bride price and marry her. 17 But if her father refuses to let him marry her, the man must still pay him an amount equal to the bride price of a virgin

It doesn’t say that. We’ve gone around this passage over and over. What version are you quoting there? It’s a bad one. Here’s what it says:

16 ¶ 'And when a man doth entice a virgin who is not betrothed, and hath lain with her, he doth certainly endow her to himself for a wife;

17 if her father utterly refuse to give her to him, money he doth weigh out according to the dowry of virgins.

That’s a different thing then what you’re claiming.

 

[OttoM]

It doesn’t say that. We’ve gone around this passage over and over. What version are you quoting there? It’s a bad one. Here’s what it says:

16 ¶ 'And when a man doth entice a virgin who is not betrothed, and hath lain with her, he doth certainly endow her to himself for a wife;

17 if her father utterly refuse to give her to him, money he doth weigh out according to the dowry of virgins.

That’s a different thing then what you’re claiming.

No the NLT is more accurate in this instance than the translation you’re using.

That same Hebrew word used in exodus 22:17 for “give” is used elsewhere for giving off to marriage:

Genesis 16:3
So Sarai, Abram’s wife, took Hagar the Egyptian servant and gave her to Abram as a wife.

The girl’s father has the authority “Not” to give her to him for marriage. Therefore - a marriage isn’t as simple as having a one night stand with a virgin, and then never seeing each other again.