• Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.

Meat Don't Cry a Little Inside Men or Iron Sharpening Iron or Sparks Fly

Can you provide references for the concepts that
  1. All concubines submit to a higher order wife?
  2. A wife is a "captain"?
On the second point though, this may be a misunderstanding because of your word choice, which is unusual. When you say a woman is a "captain", it sounds on the face of it like you are saying she is the boss of her husband. However, I think from your comment that you're the "general" that you mean that a woman is a subordinate to her man - yet has her own sphere of authority within his wider sphere of authority - things that she is responsible for, that he delegates to her. Could you clarify what you actually mean, maybe using different terminology if you agree your choice of words may be contributing to a misunderstanding?
There is a clear distinction between wife and concubine. In most dictionaries the word is defined as a wife of lesser status or some form of that. The Angel told Hagar to go back and submit to her mistress, and the word Mistress is a very interesting word that can mean Head of the Household,
This made me laugh 😂 Quite bold of you to assume I’m as feminist as you seem to be.
Didn't assume anything. Just being snarky to a guy who attacked me. That's all. He understood about 1/10th of what I said, then thought himself froggy.
 
That’s correct. Unless he can provide references that teach all concubines are subservient to the wives.
Thought about it and nope. Not going to. What you are asking me to do is go back through conversations I've had over years, references I've found in old texts while doing other research, and discussions I've had with others I've met over the years. Not going to bother, because it's not an issue I feel that strongly about and because what you are seeking is a "BLACK AND WHITE PROVE IT TO ME," and I'm just not interested in trying and would fail anyway. You go on believing what you please, and I'll do the same. And as I said, I came here to enjoy the company of others, and I get attacked. Shrugs, the delete button is right there.
 
Captain is wrong word in any case.

For most people first analogy isn't general - officer in army, but ship captain who is in total control.

If army is analogy then any officer rank - soldier analogy would be far clear to many people.
Captain is the word I chose to use. Thank you for attempting to correct me into using another word that is not as suitable. I think I'll pass.
 
Thought about it and nope. Not going to. What you are asking me to do is go back through conversations I've had over years, references I've found in old texts while doing other research, and discussions I've had with others I've met over the years. Not going to bother, because it's not an issue I feel that strongly about and because what you are seeking is a "BLACK AND WHITE PROVE IT TO ME," and I'm just not interested in trying and would fail anyway. You go on believing what you please, and I'll do the same. And as I said, I came here to enjoy the company of others, and I get attacked. Shrugs, the delete button is right there.
If you were Jacob and had two wives and two concubines, would both wives be Heads of the household?
 
Can you provide references for the concepts that
  1. All concubines submit to a higher order wife?
  2. A wife is a "captain"?
On the second point though, this may be a misunderstanding because of your word choice, which is unusual. When you say a woman is a "captain", it sounds on the face of it like you are saying she is the boss of her husband. However, I think from your comment that you're the "general" that you mean that a woman is a subordinate to her man - yet has her own sphere of authority within his wider sphere of authority - things that she is responsible for, that he delegates to her. Could you clarify what you actually mean, maybe using different terminology if you agree your choice of words may be contributing to a misunderstanding?
Hello Following Him. How are you tonight. Sorry for talking a while to get back to you, been in bed all day, and sick the last two weeks. I think that's the only reason I have time to spend doing fun things. I don't know who the joker was aho wrote that last bit, but he started off with an insulting as hell personal message about me getting hormone therapy. I really am too old to deal with that kind of rudeness and personal attack. There's an ignore button, don't mind a bit using it.

For the first concept, concubines submitting to the wife, it comes from two places primarily and one thing I do when I'm trying to figure things out.
First, is Hagar being told to submit herself to her mistress. The two definitions I combined here are Submit and Mistress. In Gen 9 I think Sarah was referred to as Mistress... which can mean, "Lady (English Connotations) and Lord... and Mistress of Servants. For this example I'm using Mistress of Servants. The word the bible uses is the same for Lord, but a feminine version of it. The word Submit is also not the same concept as the NT's version, but more of a slave submitting to her master, beating yourself into submission.

In Death and Dissymmetry, Meike Bal suggests the translation of the Hebrew word pileghesh can be taken out of context because the original word used to describe the woman can be taken out of context because of different cultural ideas.[6]The Euro-American cultural idea of a concubine often is understood to mean “slave” by Old Testament scholars but Bal refutes the notion because the texts don’t necessarily communicate this idea. She points out that, in most texts the term appears to mean a wife of lower status. She also argues this position since the man had shown emotional attachment by going to retrieve her from her father’s house. Bal then goes on to say, “her status as a wife is shown through the fact that her rape is seen as an offense against her husband, serious enough to warrant war.”

Translations are translations. And certain concepts like concubinage vary and are different from culture to culture. The Ephesians might have had one concept and Hebrews another. So, I chose one. To me, a concubine is a wife of lesser status - or, a wife who is under the authority of a wife - giving two levels of leadership and making sense out of confusion.

The wife as captain comes from a bunch of places.

I was military and found that a military mindset really helps in imagining a huge plural family. The military command structure is really well thought out, works with large numbers of people, and lets a solid chain of command erase the natural tend toward disorder when groups meet and have to work together. I'm studying command structure right now and reading a number of books as I get time.

Militaries of today are not the militaries of yesterday. I read a story about a military of that era some time ago, probably ten or more years ago now, far enough where I remember the story but don't remember the details. I do remember that captains would be landowners and train their units who were mostly their own households and servants. Then, when war or other function eeding the army to assemble, the landholder would submit himself to the leadership of the chosen general. I understood that the word submit was similar in nature. It implies that the one submitting was worth two spits. A well formed group of fighters was more valuable than a little group of rabble. But in that kind of leadership, orders are given to the person leading the group, but the general does not order the group directly. I do have to admit the idea that I see here in some of the comments I've gotten implies that a few men here see women as property or servants. So in my household, which is growing now, I choose to see my wife as something more precious than gold. She is extremely talented, and I have been chosen by her to be her leader. She gives me that support, and submits to me because she chose to from the beginning.

Like the legions, the stronger each unit is, the stronger the army is. I will make my wife the strongest person she can be, able to make decisions and knowing when to ask me first. This, in my house, is done beforehand, and extrapolated from there. My second reference for this is Proverbs 31. If you want that wife, then you let/help the woman grow into that wife. But there's a passage that is really close to that one in tone... Proverbs 3.

AS for the last one I should address, it was God choosing Gideon because he had a large household... I KNOW I read it, but my mind is still fuzzy from being sick, not as much today and getting better thankfully, but I can't remember where I read it and I'm not well enough to focus on finding it right now. If I misread something, it happens. Shrugs... use your own judgement, it's why we have it.

Oh, and a note to the others. I respect decorum. I will not respond to attacks. I've been involved with PM since 1990, before some of you were born. I've known thousands of people involved with this, and while I do like to occasionally deal with the theology side of it, I'm not interested in arguing over anything... my research days were over in about the 2000's, over 20 years ago. I'm not going to dig into a bunch of old tests to justify myself today, what I'll do is shrug, or admit I'm wrong, or just give you the middle finger and walk away. I'm old enough to be crotchety like that.

You all have a great day. And remember, words are just words and as such, are far more dangerous that the largest gun.
 
If you were Jacob and had two wives and two concubines, would both wives be Heads of the household?
My wife and I have had numerous discussions about this as we're trying to build a good house.

When I married her, I decided I would build a polygynous household from the ground up. PArt of that was imagining what my household would look like in a year, ten years, fifty years. How the decisions I made then would affect my family tomorrow. So, I looked at the Jewish Ketubah... and I used a VERY old definition of it. Now, it's a cute wall hanging, but in times past, it was a real foundational document that the families negotiated.

I SAW modern marriage! I SAW what, "Let's just get along and do things together," led to, experienced it myself in a bad marriage. You know the old adage that wisdom comes from screwing up? I wanted nothing to do with that type of marriage. Also, I've talked to dozens of people about this in monogamy and the results are, startling. Shocking. Predictible. We are not taught this in this nation and do not have a foundation for this kind of marriage - or did we?

I found that we did. They were about the same thing as the Ketuba, but more generalized (thus the problem with them) called "Gender Roles." The wife did this, the man did that. It wasn't negotiation, it was a form that they filled out and was taught to them by their parents. Since it was in a way inviolate and involuntary, it had all the same characteristics as a prison sentence. Nuclear Families most common comment? She's the old ball and chain, and, marriage, it's like slavery! It was doomed to fail, but like the last mud in a clear stream, it fades over time and nothing replaces it. Then people cry, "Yay! We're free!" Then a few minutes later say, "Now what the hell do we do?"

I negotiated with my wife. We covered who did what and when. I am in charge of cooking and she does the dishes. She feeds the animals and I buy the food. I do repairs and she plays hand-me-it. I repair the cars and she gets me drinks and talks to me if it's that kind of repair (Yes, we agreed to her talking to me while repairing the car) and so on. Yes, I fold, she washes. She cleans the counters, I do the canning and food prep.

I make the overal policy of the family, and am the ultimate call on overall family matters... where we live, when we go on vacation, anything that affects the family total. SHE is in charge of the Household. She chooses the paint colors, flooring options, and what color the trim is, where the cabinets are, and if she even likes the house I build for her. Recently we decided to make a larger house, and she rejected the floorplan. Tine to negotiate. It's HER CALL. I do have veto powers, that I will use if I have to. I prefer not to unless it's necessary.

She has decided that it's time I found someone else. Actually, she decided that she is going to find someone else for our family. She gets to set the criteria, because we negotiated about this before we married. I get ultimate veto on the person. We know what we're looking for. And yes, I'll get to that in a minute... you'll understand then...

We're looking for someone who is a homesteader at heart. My criteria.
Someone who wants to garden. Her criteria.
Someone pretty. Her criteria.
Someone who will further her education. My criteria.
Someone who is willing to do a major job in the house. Her Criteria.
Someone who enjoys weaving, or leatherworking. My criteria.
Someone with mad internet skills. Her criteria.

So negotiation time will come up soon. When the right person comes into the house, she will be given a realm of responsibility just as my wife has Head of the Household, she will renegotiate that to include the new person, and I will as well. Perhaps she likes to cook? Then she might get that job. If she has it, it's a complete realm... she chooses the menu, buys the items from the family budget, and does prep and cooks. She may or may not want dishes, and if not, then one of us will step up. In the end, she will be a functional and active member of our household with her own responsiblities, own duties and own sense of belonging. Her skills will contribute to the household as ours will contribute to her sense of self. She will be an interwoven part of our house and our family. And we know that individually we are weak, but together we are strong. The more woven together we are, we go from being three individual threads to a strong cord, and if it works this way, eventually, a rope.

That's how I'm building MY household and I'm building it oon biblical principles where every woman is a Captain, with her own skills... and to add the concubine analogy... if I find someone who wants to be part of the family, but is not skilled enough or doesn't want to be responsible for an area of our lives - and I've met one already - she can choose to be concubine. She can be a part of the family and help cook, or help wash, or help do laundry, or help.... she will be a member of the family, but will answer to the wife and her area of the household. She won't make decisions, she'll be a helper. This is how I choose to define concubine. A wife of lesser status. A Wife's Helper. Not under MY authority except as the helper of my wife.

On a personal note. I know of quite a few women that I've talked to about this and they found it very attractive. One lady had been abused pretty badly, and didn't want to let someone down, or feel pressured to do things... and she felt that being a wife's assistant would be a great place for her. She would have sex only when she wanted to, still have a loving family to hold her when she needed a hug, and be free to spend time on herself, growing and recovering or just letting her damage be a part of her and living the life she wants while still having a loving family who supported her. To me, this is all the justification I need at the moment.
 
My wife and I have had numerous discussions about this as we're trying to build a good house.

When I married her, I decided I would build a polygynous household from the ground up. PArt of that was imagining what my household would look like in a year, ten years, fifty years. How the decisions I made then would affect my family tomorrow. So, I looked at the Jewish Ketubah... and I used a VERY old definition of it. Now, it's a cute wall hanging, but in times past, it was a real foundational document that the families negotiated.

I SAW modern marriage! I SAW what, "Let's just get along and do things together," led to, experienced it myself in a bad marriage. You know the old adage that wisdom comes from screwing up? I wanted nothing to do with that type of marriage. Also, I've talked to dozens of people about this in monogamy and the results are, startling. Shocking. Predictible. We are not taught this in this nation and do not have a foundation for this kind of marriage - or did we?

I found that we did. They were about the same thing as the Ketuba, but more generalized (thus the problem with them) called "Gender Roles." The wife did this, the man did that. It wasn't negotiation, it was a form that they filled out and was taught to them by their parents. Since it was in a way inviolate and involuntary, it had all the same characteristics as a prison sentence. Nuclear Families most common comment? She's the old ball and chain, and, marriage, it's like slavery! It was doomed to fail, but like the last mud in a clear stream, it fades over time and nothing replaces it. Then people cry, "Yay! We're free!" Then a few minutes later say, "Now what the hell do we do?"

I negotiated with my wife. We covered who did what and when. I am in charge of cooking and she does the dishes. She feeds the animals and I buy the food. I do repairs and she plays hand-me-it. I repair the cars and she gets me drinks and talks to me if it's that kind of repair (Yes, we agreed to her talking to me while repairing the car) and so on. Yes, I fold, she washes. She cleans the counters, I do the canning and food prep.

I make the overal policy of the family, and am the ultimate call on overall family matters... where we live, when we go on vacation, anything that affects the family total. SHE is in charge of the Household. She chooses the paint colors, flooring options, and what color the trim is, where the cabinets are, and if she even likes the house I build for her. Recently we decided to make a larger house, and she rejected the floorplan. Tine to negotiate. It's HER CALL. I do have veto powers, that I will use if I have to. I prefer not to unless it's necessary.

She has decided that it's time I found someone else. Actually, she decided that she is going to find someone else for our family. She gets to set the criteria, because we negotiated about this before we married. I get ultimate veto on the person. We know what we're looking for. And yes, I'll get to that in a minute... you'll understand then...

We're looking for someone who is a homesteader at heart. My criteria.
Someone who wants to garden. Her criteria.
Someone pretty. Her criteria.
Someone who will further her education. My criteria.
Someone who is willing to do a major job in the house. Her Criteria.
Someone who enjoys weaving, or leatherworking. My criteria.
Someone with mad internet skills. Her criteria.

So negotiation time will come up soon. When the right person comes into the house, she will be given a realm of responsibility just as my wife has Head of the Household, she will renegotiate that to include the new person, and I will as well. Perhaps she likes to cook? Then she might get that job. If she has it, it's a complete realm... she chooses the menu, buys the items from the family budget, and does prep and cooks. She may or may not want dishes, and if not, then one of us will step up. In the end, she will be a functional and active member of our household with her own responsiblities, own duties and own sense of belonging. Her skills will contribute to the household as ours will contribute to her sense of self. She will be an interwoven part of our house and our family. And we know that individually we are weak, but together we are strong. The more woven together we are, we go from being three individual threads to a strong cord, and if it works this way, eventually, a rope.

That's how I'm building MY household and I'm building it oon biblical principles where every woman is a Captain, with her own skills... and to add the concubine analogy... if I find someone who wants to be part of the family, but is not skilled enough or doesn't want to be responsible for an area of our lives - and I've met one already - she can choose to be concubine. She can be a part of the family and help cook, or help wash, or help do laundry, or help.... she will be a member of the family, but will answer to the wife and her area of the household. She won't make decisions, she'll be a helper. This is how I choose to define concubine. A wife of lesser status. A Wife's Helper. Not under MY authority except as the helper of my wife.

On a personal note. I know of quite a few women that I've talked to about this and they found it very attractive. One lady had been abused pretty badly, and didn't want to let someone down, or feel pressured to do things... and she felt that being a wife's assistant would be a great place for her. She would have sex only when she wanted to, still have a loving family to hold her when she needed a hug, and be free to spend time on herself, growing and recovering or just letting her damage be a part of her and living the life she wants while still having a loving family who supported her. To me, this is all the justification I need at the moment.
I look forward to seeing it all play out.
It’s too complicated for my house, but you and I are different people.
 
Thought about it and nope. Not going to. What you are asking me to do is go back through conversations I've had over years, references I've found in old texts while doing other research, and discussions I've had with others I've met over the years.
You say you’ve studied this for 30 years and you can’t give scripture references? 👀 oooook… that sounds like the knowledge didn’t stick very well. I’d expect it would be relatively easy. But that’s fine if you don’t want to talk about your beliefs.
Not going to bother, because it's not an issue I feel that strongly about and because what you are seeking is a "BLACK AND WHITE PROVE IT TO ME," and I'm just not interested in trying and would fail anyway.
You feel strongly enough to put in a book to help others rebuild marriages…

I agree you’d fail, cause you can’t prove it with scriptural evidence. That’s fine if you want to just say you think it’s scriptural.
You go on believing what you please, and I'll do the same. And as I said, I came here to enjoy the company of others, and I get attacked. Shrugs, the delete button is right there.
That’s fine bud. You’re free to believe whatever you want.

For what it’s worth, I’m comfortable and confident enough in myself that when someone challenges me on what I claim is truth, I don’t perceive it as an “attack”. That’s a pretty lame frame of mind. If we are brothers in christ and I’m spouting nonsense, I hope and pray one of my brothers will say “hey idiot, that’s dumb. Here’s scripture that shows you the truth.”

I’ve been challenged on this forum and found myself to be in error. If you have everything figured out and there’s no way you could be wrong then I for one am impressed!

I was genuine in all my discourse, I even gave you the respect of starting a different thread and not jumping on your banana bread thread with my challenge to what isn’t based on scripture.

I sent a private message that I’m happy to screenshot and share publicly. In that message I was genuinely reaching out to someone I assumed was a brother in Christ, saying I intended good natured ribbing and hoped you could take it. Apparently that’s not the case. I though military guys were made of sterner stuff.

I gave you some of my own personal history, struggles and results that brought solutions. Go ahead and spit in my face. That shows more about your character than mine.

So I apologize, didn’t realize you were so sensitive. I won’t do so again.

Your attitude towards everyone here who has challenged your statements has been supremely arrogant and dismissive as well as disrespectful.

Feel free to hit the ignore button on me. But when you say something that’s wrong according to God’s word. I will call you out. If you want sycophants, this is the WRONG place bud.
 
There is a clear distinction between wife and concubine. In most dictionaries the word is defined as a wife of lesser status or some form of that. The Angel told Hagar to go back and submit to her mistress, and the word Mistress is a very interesting word that can mean Head of the Household,

Didn't assume anything. Just being snarky to a guy who attacked me. That's all. He understood about 1/10th of what I said, then thought himself froggy.
You see I didn’t realize the dictionary defined what concubines are. I was looking in the Bible. My bad.
 
So, I did some digging on the root פִֽילַגְשׁ֖ (pilegesh) in Tanakh. This is all "scholarship" so take it for what it's worth. My resource is the New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis. Sorry for the length, but I figured you can snooze through it or ignore it. There are quite a few bizarre things about this word:

1) Not semitic: It's a loanword - possibly from Philistines
First, it's not a Semitic Root and is attested in no other Semitic Language. (Sumerian uses shugitu or esirtu for the notion of concubinage). It seems that it is related to Greek pallake (which is used almost universally in LXX to translate the word). That does not mean that the word is a late edition to the text. It seems more likely that it came into Hebrew as a loan word from the Philistines (who probably originated in Caphtor).

Here are a couple of quotes from the book:

"Note that from the days of t he Conquest on, almost everybody in the OT of whom it is said he had a concubine is either from the tribe of Judah or Benjamin, those with the closest contact with the Phillistines." (618)

2) Scriptural References

There are seven men from the Conquest to the final exile that are said to have concubines:
1) Caleb (Judah) - 1 Chron 2:46, 48
2) Gideon (Manasseh but living near Philistine encampment) (Judg 8::31)
3) Ephraimite Levite from Bethlehem in Judah (Judges 19:1-30)
4) Saul - Benjamite (2 Sam 3:7; 21:11)
5) David - Judah - (2 Sam 5:13; 15:16; 16:21, 2; 19:5(6); 20 3; 1 Chron 3:9)
6) Solomon - Judah - 1 Kings 11:3
7) Rehoboam (2 Chron 11:21)

3) Inconsistent Usage in patriarchal period.

For the Patriarchal Period there are a few:
Nahor (Gen 22:24)
Eliphaz (Gen 32:12)
Keturah is called a concubine in 1 Chron 1:32
Hagar is only indirectly called a concubine (Gen 25:6)
Bilhah is named one (Gen 35:22) - but oddly Zilpah is not.

Also oddly Hagar (Gen 16:3), Keturah (25:1), Bilhah (30:4) and Zilpah (30:9) are all refereed to as isha (woman/wife). In most cases a woman is not referred to as both a pilegesh AND and isha.

3) NIDOTTE's Summary (Not mine . . . still not sure what I think)

"Normally the concubine is an auxillary wife. She is subordinated to the 'issa and is substitute birth-mother at the disposition of her mistress (Hagar, Zilpah, Bilhah). On the other hand, neither is the concubine a slave and that ranks her above an 'ama or shipha." (Two types of female slaves), (619)
 
Hello Following Him. How are you tonight. Sorry for talking a while to get back to you, been in bed all day, and sick the last two weeks. I think that's the only reason I have time to spend doing fun things. I don't know who the joker was aho wrote that last bit, but he started off with an insulting as hell personal message about me getting hormone therapy. I really am too old to deal with that kind of rudeness and personal attack. There's an ignore button, don't mind a bit using it.

For the first concept, concubines submitting to the wife, it comes from two places primarily and one thing I do when I'm trying to figure things out.
First, is Hagar being told to submit herself to her mistress. The two definitions I combined here are Submit and Mistress. In Gen 9 I think Sarah was referred to as Mistress... which can mean, "Lady (English Connotations) and Lord... and Mistress of Servants. For this example I'm using Mistress of Servants. The word the bible uses is the same for Lord, but a feminine version of it. The word Submit is also not the same concept as the NT's version, but more of a slave submitting to her master, beating yourself into submission.

In Death and Dissymmetry, Meike Bal suggests the translation of the Hebrew word pileghesh can be taken out of context because the original word used to describe the woman can be taken out of context because of different cultural ideas.[6]The Euro-American cultural idea of a concubine often is understood to mean “slave” by Old Testament scholars but Bal refutes the notion because the texts don’t necessarily communicate this idea. She points out that, in most texts the term appears to mean a wife of lower status. She also argues this position since the man had shown emotional attachment by going to retrieve her from her father’s house. Bal then goes on to say, “her status as a wife is shown through the fact that her rape is seen as an offense against her husband, serious enough to warrant war.”

Translations are translations. And certain concepts like concubinage vary and are different from culture to culture. The Ephesians might have had one concept and Hebrews another. So, I chose one. To me, a concubine is a wife of lesser status - or, a wife who is under the authority of a wife - giving two levels of leadership and making sense out of confusion.

The wife as captain comes from a bunch of places.

I was military and found that a military mindset really helps in imagining a huge plural family. The military command structure is really well thought out, works with large numbers of people, and lets a solid chain of command erase the natural tend toward disorder when groups meet and have to work together. I'm studying command structure right now and reading a number of books as I get time.

Militaries of today are not the militaries of yesterday. I read a story about a military of that era some time ago, probably ten or more years ago now, far enough where I remember the story but don't remember the details. I do remember that captains would be landowners and train their units who were mostly their own households and servants. Then, when war or other function eeding the army to assemble, the landholder would submit himself to the leadership of the chosen general. I understood that the word submit was similar in nature. It implies that the one submitting was worth two spits. A well formed group of fighters was more valuable than a little group of rabble. But in that kind of leadership, orders are given to the person leading the group, but the general does not order the group directly. I do have to admit the idea that I see here in some of the comments I've gotten implies that a few men here see women as property or servants. So in my household, which is growing now, I choose to see my wife as something more precious than gold. She is extremely talented, and I have been chosen by her to be her leader. She gives me that support, and submits to me because she chose to from the beginning.

Like the legions, the stronger each unit is, the stronger the army is. I will make my wife the strongest person she can be, able to make decisions and knowing when to ask me first. This, in my house, is done beforehand, and extrapolated from there. My second reference for this is Proverbs 31. If you want that wife, then you let/help the woman grow into that wife. But there's a passage that is really close to that one in tone... Proverbs 3.

AS for the last one I should address, it was God choosing Gideon because he had a large household... I KNOW I read it, but my mind is still fuzzy from being sick, not as much today and getting better thankfully, but I can't remember where I read it and I'm not well enough to focus on finding it right now. If I misread something, it happens. Shrugs... use your own judgement, it's why we have it.

Oh, and a note to the others. I respect decorum. I will not respond to attacks. I've been involved with PM since 1990, before some of you were born. I've known thousands of people involved with this, and while I do like to occasionally deal with the theology side of it, I'm not interested in arguing over anything... my research days were over in about the 2000's, over 20 years ago. I'm not going to dig into a bunch of old tests to justify myself today, what I'll do is shrug, or admit I'm wrong, or just give you the middle finger and walk away. I'm old enough to be crotchety like that.

You all have a great day. And remember, words are just words and as such, are far more dangerous that the largest gun.
Communication is useless if another can't understand you. Ii even worse if misunderstanding is done.

You choose general - captain analogy from, what exactly, medieval ages or early modern era (Louis 14 in France). How much peoples alive know how army functioned then? Only military historians and their fan base.

Use analogy which average person will properly understood.

Second, idea that concubine is under wife's authority is logical error. You call on Hagar as example. That's inference which can easily be false. Also, Hagar was already Sarah's servant before Abraham started sleeping with her. God telling Hagar to go back under Sarah is same as telling her to go back to her job.

Concubine has lower status because her social status was lower before marriage, not because there was some difference in marriage. Like king taking lower noblewoman instead of royalty (princess). Off course, due to politics, noblewoman will be concubine. Marriage implies military/political alliance, a category where noblewoman has far less to offer to than princess.

Why are you so focused on chain of command? You in change and all women below is good enough for dozen people. It is good enough for small business with owner and 10 employees. Nothing prevents owner from having employess with different levels of responsibilities where some employees have coordinating rensonsibilities. No need to add team leaders in hierarchy just to coordinate some projects.
Same thinking can be applied in marriage.

What are you planning? Having 25 wives?
 
My wife and I have had numerous discussions about this as we're trying to build a good house.

When I married her, I decided I would build a polygynous household from the ground up. PArt of that was imagining what my household would look like in a year, ten years, fifty years. How the decisions I made then would affect my family tomorrow. So, I looked at the Jewish Ketubah... and I used a VERY old definition of it. Now, it's a cute wall hanging, but in times past, it was a real foundational document that the families negotiated.

I SAW modern marriage! I SAW what, "Let's just get along and do things together," led to, experienced it myself in a bad marriage. You know the old adage that wisdom comes from screwing up? I wanted nothing to do with that type of marriage. Also, I've talked to dozens of people about this in monogamy and the results are, startling. Shocking. Predictible. We are not taught this in this nation and do not have a foundation for this kind of marriage - or did we?

I found that we did. They were about the same thing as the Ketuba, but more generalized (thus the problem with them) called "Gender Roles." The wife did this, the man did that. It wasn't negotiation, it was a form that they filled out and was taught to them by their parents. Since it was in a way inviolate and involuntary, it had all the same characteristics as a prison sentence. Nuclear Families most common comment? She's the old ball and chain, and, marriage, it's like slavery! It was doomed to fail, but like the last mud in a clear stream, it fades over time and nothing replaces it. Then people cry, "Yay! We're free!" Then a few minutes later say, "Now what the hell do we do?"

I negotiated with my wife. We covered who did what and when. I am in charge of cooking and she does the dishes. She feeds the animals and I buy the food. I do repairs and she plays hand-me-it. I repair the cars and she gets me drinks and talks to me if it's that kind of repair (Yes, we agreed to her talking to me while repairing the car) and so on. Yes, I fold, she washes. She cleans the counters, I do the canning and food prep.

I make the overal policy of the family, and am the ultimate call on overall family matters... where we live, when we go on vacation, anything that affects the family total. SHE is in charge of the Household. She chooses the paint colors, flooring options, and what color the trim is, where the cabinets are, and if she even likes the house I build for her. Recently we decided to make a larger house, and she rejected the floorplan. Tine to negotiate. It's HER CALL. I do have veto powers, that I will use if I have to. I prefer not to unless it's necessary.

She has decided that it's time I found someone else. Actually, she decided that she is going to find someone else for our family. She gets to set the criteria, because we negotiated about this before we married. I get ultimate veto on the person. We know what we're looking for. And yes, I'll get to that in a minute... you'll understand then...

We're looking for someone who is a homesteader at heart. My criteria.
Someone who wants to garden. Her criteria.
Someone pretty. Her criteria.
Someone who will further her education. My criteria.
Someone who is willing to do a major job in the house. Her Criteria.
Someone who enjoys weaving, or leatherworking. My criteria.
Someone with mad internet skills. Her criteria.

So negotiation time will come up soon. When the right person comes into the house, she will be given a realm of responsibility just as my wife has Head of the Household, she will renegotiate that to include the new person, and I will as well. Perhaps she likes to cook? Then she might get that job. If she has it, it's a complete realm... she chooses the menu, buys the items from the family budget, and does prep and cooks. She may or may not want dishes, and if not, then one of us will step up. In the end, she will be a functional and active member of our household with her own responsiblities, own duties and own sense of belonging. Her skills will contribute to the household as ours will contribute to her sense of self. She will be an interwoven part of our house and our family. And we know that individually we are weak, but together we are strong. The more woven together we are, we go from being three individual threads to a strong cord, and if it works this way, eventually, a rope.

That's how I'm building MY household and I'm building it oon biblical principles where every woman is a Captain, with her own skills... and to add the concubine analogy... if I find someone who wants to be part of the family, but is not skilled enough or doesn't want to be responsible for an area of our lives - and I've met one already - she can choose to be concubine. She can be a part of the family and help cook, or help wash, or help do laundry, or help.... she will be a member of the family, but will answer to the wife and her area of the household. She won't make decisions, she'll be a helper. This is how I choose to define concubine. A wife of lesser status. A Wife's Helper. Not under MY authority except as the helper of my wife.

On a personal note. I know of quite a few women that I've talked to about this and they found it very attractive. One lady had been abused pretty badly, and didn't want to let someone down, or feel pressured to do things... and she felt that being a wife's assistant would be a great place for her. She would have sex only when she wanted to, still have a loving family to hold her when she needed a hug, and be free to spend time on herself, growing and recovering or just letting her damage be a part of her and living the life she wants while still having a loving family who supported her. To me, this is all the justification I need at the moment.
I’m really hoping that everyone reads this and sees where the concubine fallacy leads but let’s skip over that for a minute and talk about the cognitive dissonance here; every woman is a captain, except for no women but first wives. This violates the law of non contradiction. Every woman can’t be a captain if only one in every grouping of two or more is.

At best only half of women can be captains in that case. This man has a monogamy mindset. His marriage isn’t scalable.

For instance, he has a highly regimented relationship with his wife, each have complimentary duties (complementarianism is the worst of all possible marriage arrangements, being neither fish nor fowl but having all of the disadvantages of both). What happens to this highly striated arrangement if another woman joins the household? It get’s upended. Negotiations have to start over from the beginning only now they’re between three people. These types of negotiations can be unpredictable.

Something very similar led to the U.S. Constitution replacing the Articles of Confederation when all they were supposed to do was to came up with a new tax code. This is the opposite of scalable.

Years ago @andrew recast the Rich Dad/Poor Dad example of buying houses in the terms of marriage. For those of us who haven’t read the book; if you buy a house that pays for itself through generated revenue you can then turn around a buy another house. If you buy a house that costs you revenue then you can buy no more houses. Profitability allows expansion.

Now take the economic element out of it. A woman that adds value to a household allows that household to expand if so desired. She’s scalable. You can add more. That’s the polygynous mindset. That’s one of the things we are supposed to be advancing here.

An unending series of captains isn’t scalable. If they’re all captains then none of them are captains. Once again The Incredibles deliver deep philosophical truths.

Now if I’m honest I have to admit that only the first Incredibles really delivers all that much philosophical truth, and also that one Captain Wife and a bunch of Wife Dangers (concubines) is scalable. Yes, that does pain me to say.

However that requires us to relegate certain women to higher status without any process or guidelines for doing so. This doesn’t square with the New Testament at all anyway. That being said, if we’re simply looking at scalability and non-contradiction then it would be possible to say that some women are captains but most are concubines.

That’s not what he says though. He says that all women are captains and that only the first wife is. Which of course is self contradictory.
 
Last edited:
Thankyou for the considered reply.
For the first concept, concubines submitting to the wife, it comes from two places primarily and one thing I do when I'm trying to figure things out.
First, is Hagar being told to submit herself to her mistress.
...
Translations are translations. And certain concepts like concubinage vary and are different from culture to culture. The Ephesians might have had one concept and Hebrews another. So, I chose one. To me, a concubine is a wife of lesser status - or, a wife who is under the authority of a wife - giving two levels of leadership and making sense out of confusion.
I agree that a concubine can certainly be under the authority of a higher status wife, and Sarah / Hagar is an excellent example of that. However, I believe that is too limited an understanding - it is one option, not necessarily always the case.

Hagar was Sarah's slave before becoming Abraham's wife / concubine (and she is called both in different places). She remained Sarah's slave afterwards. She submitted to Sarah because she was her slave. Does this mean that every concubine is a slave (or of similar subservient status)? I don't think that gives us enough evidence for that.

In a previous discussion, @Nikud defined the word concubine using ancient Jewish sources:
The term in Hebrew is pilegesh, the equivalent of Greek pallakis(παλλακίς) and Latin pellex. Among the Assyrians the concubine (esirtu) gained the rank of wife only after the veiling ceremony conducted by her spouse, if he so chose to elevate her (Assyrian Code A, 41). The legal formalities, if any, are not described in the Bible. A concubine did not always reside in her husband's home (Judg. 8:31), but such was not the general rule (Judg. 19–20). Her spouse was called the son-inlaw (ḥatan) of her father, who was the father-in-law (ḥoten). Therefore, the concubinage relationship could partake of many aspects of regular marriage. Two famous concubines are mentioned in the Bible. Rizpah the daughter of Aiah the concubine of Saul (II Sam. 3:7) whose moving display of maternal love so moved David that he had her children buried in the family sepulcher (21:8–14) and the concubine of Gibeah whose rape and murder brought about the death of 25,000 members of the tribe of Benjamin and the ban against members of the other tribes intermarrying with them (Judg. 19–21).

Royal concubines were standard among the kings of Israel and Judah, just as in any ancient Near Eastern kingdom (Song 6:8–9). They were clearly distinguished from the wives (II Sam. 5:13; I Kings 11:13; IIChron. 11:21). To lie with a monarch's concubine was tantamount to usurpation of the throne (II Sam. 3:7; 16:21–22). For this reason Abner took Rizpah (II Sam. 3:7). The same concept stands behind Ahitophel'sadvice to Absalom, to "go into his father's concubines" (16:21), and Adonijah's request for Abishag the Shunamite was clearly associated with this custom (I Kings 2:21–24). The harem was usually in the charge of a eunuch (Esth. 2:14; cf. II Kings 9:32). The role of the concubine as the mother of venerable ethnic groups is not overlooked in the genealogies. Their descendants are usually classed as secondary or subsidiary tribes (Gen. 22:24; 36:12), especially the Abrahamic groups (Gen. 25:6; I Chron. 1:32). Within Israel, some of the clans were also the offspring of concubines (I Chron. 2:46; 7:14). In one instance, the term concubine is applied to a handmaiden (shifḥah and aʾmah) who had borne children to her mistress' husband (Gen. 35:22). Such a relationship was usually established because the legal wife was barren (Gen. 16). Ancient marriage arrangements often stipulated that if the wife was barren, she must provide a handmaiden for her husband Naming the handmaiden given to the bride by her father in such cases was evidently related to this practice (Gen. 29:24, 29). If the wife later bore children of her own, they took precedence in the inheritance over those of the handmaiden Gen. 21:12, although the latter did receive a share. Israelite law provided safeguards for the rights of Hebrew girls sold as handmaidens who were to be wed to their purchaser or to his son (Ex. 21:7–11). If the handmaiden bore children for her mistress and then sought to place herself on an equal footing, she normally could not be sold, although she could be reduced to the status of a slave again Gen. 21:12–14, where the slave-concubine and her child are both expelled.

A concubine is firstly defined by Jewish laws as a woman dedicating herself to a particular man, with whom she cohabits without*kiddushin (see *Marriage ) or *ketubbah .

"What is the difference between wives and concubines?

Wives have ketubbah and kiddushin, concubines have neither" (Sanh. 21a; Maim. Yad, Melakhim 4:4; Leḥem Mishneh and Radbaz, ad loc.).

Not all the scholars adopt this reading, however, and Rashi, for instance, comments: "wives with kiddushin and ketubbah, concubines with kiddushin but without ketubbah" (Comm. to Gen. 25:6; see also Comm. Hagra, EH 26, n. 7). This latter reading is apparently that of the Jerusalem Talmud too (TJ, Ket. 5:2, 29d and Hagra, ibid.; but see Mareh ha-Panim thereto). The majority of the *posekim accept the former reading as the correct one (Radbaz to Yad, Melakhim 4:4; Kesef Mishneh and Leḥem Mishneh, as against the Maggid Mishneh, to Yad, Ishut, 1;4; Radbaz, Resp., vol. 4, no. 225; vol. 7, no. 33; Naḥmanides, commentary to Gen. 19:8; 25:6; Ralbag to Judg. 19:1; Rashba, Resp., vol. 4, no. 314). Hence a concubine is to be distinguished both, on the one hand from a married woman, i.e., by ḥuppah ("marriage ceremony"), kiddushin, and ketubbah, and on the other from a woman who does not dedicate herself to one particular man exclusively, but who prostitutes herself; i.e., the harlot (Hassagot Rabad to Ishut 1:4 and see also Rema to EH 26:1).

I hold what you are saying to apply here.

Inasmuch as a concubine does not acquire the personal status of a wife (eshet ish: Tur EH 26; Sh. Ar., EH 26:1), she has no ketubbah; therefore, in accordance with the rule providing that the "terms and conditions of the ketubbah [tena'ei ketubbah] follow the [prescribed] ketubbah" (Ket. 54b; Rashi ibid. S.V. tena'ei ketubbah) she does not acquire any of the wife's pecuniary rights – especially she is not entitled to maintenance – as all those rights stem from the ketubbah. Nor does living with a man as his concubine create a kinship as an impediment to marriage between herself and any of the man's relatives, or between the man and her relatives, as would be the case if she would be considered to be his wife (Rosh, Resp. no. 32:1; Oẓar ha-Posekim, EH 26, n. 3). For the same reason there is no need in principle for her to obtain a get (see *Divorce ) in order to be permitted to marry any other man (Oẓar ha-Posekim, loc. cit.; Sefer ha-Tashbeẓ 3:47). However in the opinion of some of the posekim, for the sake of appearances, in view of the parties having lived together, the matter should be approached stringently and the woman should not be permitted to marry another man without obtaining a prior "get out of stringency" (get me ḥumrah) from the man with whom she has lived; but whenever the latter's refusal to grant her the get is likely to entail the risk of her becoming an *agunah , she may certainly be permitted to marry without getting such get (Oẓar ha-Posekim, EH 26, n. 3). Moreover, the status of the mother does not impair the personal status of children born of the union, nor their rights of inheritance according to law (Rashba, Resp. vol. 4, no. 314).

When it came time to divide, the father’s estate was apportioned into equal shares. Assigning specific shares to each heir was likely done by casting lots. Deut 21:17 suggests that typically the eldest son received two shares and other sons one each. A father could, by virtue of a testament, designate a younger son as the “firstborn” and reassign the right to a double share to him. He could not do so, however, if he was married to multiple women and had previously chosen to “hate” (probably meaning “demote”) the mother of the biologically oldest son. In this case, the oldest retained the status of firstborn (Deut 21:15-17).
And I then did my best to translate that into normal language:
I'd like to have a rough go at translating the core point there into English and a modern context, if I may, removing all the hebrew words like ketubah, for the benefit of readers and so you can check that I've got this right.

Basically,
  • a woman who enters the family with formal contractual arrangements (marriage contracts, documents denoting inheritance etc) is a "wife".
  • a woman who moves in without such formal contracts (or with fewer contracts) is a "concubine"
If so, this actually aligns quite well with modern practice, and fits fairly seamlessly into a modern context. Wife = wife, concubine = de-facto partner. Roughly.

The take-away message being that we must consider both formal wives and de-facto wives to be women who are to be treated as scripture tells us to treat our women. The only real difference may be when it comes to inheritance. We are able to treat both completely equally with regards to inheritance, as Jacob did. However, if because of the particular circumstances we leave different assets to each and their children, that is allowed for also and is not condemned, because we are to treat them fairly but not necessarily equally. For instance, a wife who spent 20 years building a business with you may inherit that business along with her sons, while you may choose to not give a de-facto second wife who came in later a share in that in your will for reasons of fairness.

For our purposes, we can take a second "wife" by giving her suitable written marriage contracts (not legal marriage paperwork, but a ketubah etc). Or we can take a second woman without such formal contracts, and that's also completely acceptable - but because she had no contracts, she'd have more limited inheritance rights. That's just a practical legal fact. And scripturally, a woman without such inheritance rights would be termed a "concubine" - which is just semantics and not derogatory in any way, it's just a word describing her real situation.
I think that this definition of a concubine as being an "informal" wife is more accurate because it is broader. It fits every example you have given, as it includes concubines that are slaves or otherwise subservient, because they are taken informally (e.g. Hagar, Bilhah, Zilpah). However, it is not limited to that, and may include women in a wider range of circumstances. But most importantly it has the backing of ancient scholarship, so is not just an idea one of us has thought up that seems to fit the examples we can find.

You say yourself that multiple definitions are possible, and you just "chose one". I contend that you have chosen too narrow a definition, which does not necessarily describe all concubines.
The wife as captain comes from a bunch of places.
Reading your post confirms to me that I think that we're viewing the status of a wife somewhat similarly, but the terminology you are using is confusing and causing people to misunderstand you. I have frequently described the role of a wife in business rather than military terms, by saying the husband is the CEO of the company, and the wife is a prominent subservient role, such as the accountant (who may lead a sub-team). I think with this analogy I am describing something similar to what you are describing. I'm not going to debate the words - given there are so many other ranks you could use, I do think you would do far better to use different words to describe this rather than just doubling down on your confusing use of the word "captain", but I'm not going to debate a single word.
 
Last edited:
My wife and I have had numerous discussions about this as we're trying to build a good house.

When I married her, I decided I would build a polygynous household from the ground up. PArt of that was imagining what my household would look like in a year, ten years, fifty years. How the decisions I made then would affect my family tomorrow. So, I looked at the Jewish Ketubah... and I used a VERY old definition of it. Now, it's a cute wall hanging, but in times past, it was a real foundational document that the families negotiated.

I SAW modern marriage! I SAW what, "Let's just get along and do things together," led to, experienced it myself in a bad marriage. You know the old adage that wisdom comes from screwing up? I wanted nothing to do with that type of marriage. Also, I've talked to dozens of people about this in monogamy and the results are, startling. Shocking. Predictible. We are not taught this in this nation and do not have a foundation for this kind of marriage - or did we?

I found that we did. They were about the same thing as the Ketuba, but more generalized (thus the problem with them) called "Gender Roles." The wife did this, the man did that. It wasn't negotiation, it was a form that they filled out and was taught to them by their parents. Since it was in a way inviolate and involuntary, it had all the same characteristics as a prison sentence. Nuclear Families most common comment? She's the old ball and chain, and, marriage, it's like slavery! It was doomed to fail, but like the last mud in a clear stream, it fades over time and nothing replaces it. Then people cry, "Yay! We're free!" Then a few minutes later say, "Now what the hell do we do?"

I negotiated with my wife. We covered who did what and when. I am in charge of cooking and she does the dishes. She feeds the animals and I buy the food. I do repairs and she plays hand-me-it. I repair the cars and she gets me drinks and talks to me if it's that kind of repair (Yes, we agreed to her talking to me while repairing the car) and so on. Yes, I fold, she washes. She cleans the counters, I do the canning and food prep.

I make the overal policy of the family, and am the ultimate call on overall family matters... where we live, when we go on vacation, anything that affects the family total. SHE is in charge of the Household. She chooses the paint colors, flooring options, and what color the trim is, where the cabinets are, and if she even likes the house I build for her. Recently we decided to make a larger house, and she rejected the floorplan. Tine to negotiate. It's HER CALL. I do have veto powers, that I will use if I have to. I prefer not to unless it's necessary.

She has decided that it's time I found someone else. Actually, she decided that she is going to find someone else for our family. She gets to set the criteria, because we negotiated about this before we married. I get ultimate veto on the person. We know what we're looking for. And yes, I'll get to that in a minute... you'll understand then...

We're looking for someone who is a homesteader at heart. My criteria.
Someone who wants to garden. Her criteria.
Someone pretty. Her criteria.
Someone who will further her education. My criteria.
Someone who is willing to do a major job in the house. Her Criteria.
Someone who enjoys weaving, or leatherworking. My criteria.
Someone with mad internet skills. Her criteria.

So negotiation time will come up soon. When the right person comes into the house, she will be given a realm of responsibility just as my wife has Head of the Household, she will renegotiate that to include the new person, and I will as well. Perhaps she likes to cook? Then she might get that job. If she has it, it's a complete realm... she chooses the menu, buys the items from the family budget, and does prep and cooks. She may or may not want dishes, and if not, then one of us will step up. In the end, she will be a functional and active member of our household with her own responsiblities, own duties and own sense of belonging. Her skills will contribute to the household as ours will contribute to her sense of self. She will be an interwoven part of our house and our family. And we know that individually we are weak, but together we are strong. The more woven together we are, we go from being three individual threads to a strong cord, and if it works this way, eventually, a rope.

That's how I'm building MY household and I'm building it oon biblical principles where every woman is a Captain, with her own skills... and to add the concubine analogy... if I find someone who wants to be part of the family, but is not skilled enough or doesn't want to be responsible for an area of our lives - and I've met one already - she can choose to be concubine. She can be a part of the family and help cook, or help wash, or help do laundry, or help.... she will be a member of the family, but will answer to the wife and her area of the household. She won't make decisions, she'll be a helper. This is how I choose to define concubine. A wife of lesser status. A Wife's Helper. Not under MY authority except as the helper of my wife.

On a personal note. I know of quite a few women that I've talked to about this and they found it very attractive. One lady had been abused pretty badly, and didn't want to let someone down, or feel pressured to do things... and she felt that being a wife's assistant would be a great place for her. She would have sex only when she wanted to, still have a loving family to hold her when she needed a hug, and be free to spend time on herself, growing and recovering or just letting her damage be a part of her and living the life she wants while still having a loving family who supported her. To me, this is all the justification I need at the moment.
You do you, and let us know how you get on. I am sure this could actually work for the right people - but like @steve I think it is a rather complex idea that might function in monogamy but is likely to break down the more people are involved. But that's just my reaction, and you don't need to pay attention to that.
 
You say you’ve studied this for 30 years and you can’t give scripture references? 👀 oooook… that sounds like the knowledge didn’t stick very well. I’d expect it would be relatively easy. But that’s fine if you don’t want to talk about your beliefs.

You feel strongly enough to put in a book to help others rebuild marriages…

I agree you’d fail, cause you can’t prove it with scriptural evidence. That’s fine if you want to just say you think it’s scriptural.

That’s fine bud. You’re free to believe whatever you want.

For what it’s worth, I’m comfortable and confident enough in myself that when someone challenges me on what I claim is truth, I don’t perceive it as an “attack”. That’s a pretty lame frame of mind. If we are brothers in christ and I’m spouting nonsense, I hope and pray one of my brothers will say “hey idiot, that’s dumb. Here’s scripture that shows you the truth.”

I’ve been challenged on this forum and found myself to be in error. If you have everything figured out and there’s no way you could be wrong then I for one am impressed!

I was genuine in all my discourse, I even gave you the respect of starting a different thread and not jumping on your banana bread thread with my challenge to what isn’t based on scripture.

I sent a private message that I’m happy to screenshot and share publicly. In that message I was genuinely reaching out to someone I assumed was a brother in Christ, saying I intended good natured ribbing and hoped you could take it. Apparently that’s not the case. I though military guys were made of sterner stuff.

I gave you some of my own personal history, struggles and results that brought solutions. Go ahead and spit in my face. That shows more about your character than mine.

So I apologize, didn’t realize you were so sensitive. I won’t do so again.

Your attitude towards everyone here who has challenged your statements has been supremely arrogant and dismissive as well as disrespectful.

Feel free to hit the ignore button on me. But when you say something that’s wrong according to God’s word. I will call you out. If you want sycophants, this is the WRONG place bud.
I would add:
1 Peter 3:15 (KJV) But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

I don’t think that it is a stretch to use this verse here, even though it is out of context.
It hard to discuss Biblical ideas with those who make arbitrary declarations without bringing any sauce to back them up.
 
Some women are amazing, some women are not worth a bag of rocks. Some women have very little to offer other than hips and a pretty smile. Some women have no good looks but a character and spirit of joy that shines out and transmutes plainness into stunning beauty. Yes we should be called to be men, If we are masculine, strong, wise, and bold, our wife will be happy to let us lead.

200.gif
 
Just my humble personal experience and observation about the difference between a wife and a concubine.

A wife is the first woman a man marries. She gets to help pick a house and set up the household. As she has children she helps guide the culture of the family. Like is it an orderly and clean home? Is it too heavy with rules? Or maybe too lenient with too few rules and expectations? In any case, she sets the tone and she has responsibilities unique to herself as the first wife.

I felt like a concubine when I joined my family. And I think that it is an accurate label for any woman who is new to an established family.

One definition of concubine from the web says: Concubinage is an interpersonal and sexual relationship between a man and a woman in which the couple does not want, or cannot enter into a full marriage. Concubinage and marriage are often regarded as similar but mutually exclusive.

I wasn't legally married. It seemed my primary obligation was to have sex with my husband and have his babies. When I first joined my family my husband was busy working and there was very little conversation between us. I am not exaggerating or whining when I simply say that our relationship was mostly about sex. Because it was.

I also had very little say over household details and it was my obligation to fit in to the existing order and not expect it to adjust for me.

Over time I felt more like a wife. Eventually I became the wife. And when that happened I was made keenly aware of the difference between being the first/legal/senior wife and a plural/concubine. People treat you differently. Your sisterwives treat you differently. You have a say in how things work and people listen to you. The kids pay more attention to you. Bills in the mail have your name on them.

So some of you can debate this as you want and try to define it but the reality is that women know the difference between a wife and a concubine. If you think you're a concubine then that's probably what you are.

Not that it's bad, either. You just don't get to claim a title you don't deserve. Like I'm not a Duchess or Princess either. I can say it all I want and it won't be true.

Now I'm going to ramble here so I will stop. Thank you if you read this!
 
Just my humble personal experience and observation about the difference between a wife and a concubine.

A wife is the first woman a man marries. She gets to help pick a house and set up the household. As she has children she helps guide the culture of the family. Like is it an orderly and clean home? Is it too heavy with rules? Or maybe too lenient with too few rules and expectations? In any case, she sets the tone and she has responsibilities unique to herself as the first wife.

I felt like a concubine when I joined my family. And I think that it is an accurate label for any woman who is new to an established family.

One definition of concubine from the web says: Concubinage is an interpersonal and sexual relationship between a man and a woman in which the couple does not want, or cannot enter into a full marriage. Concubinage and marriage are often regarded as similar but mutually exclusive.

I wasn't legally married. It seemed my primary obligation was to have sex with my husband and have his babies. When I first joined my family my husband was busy working and there was very little conversation between us. I am not exaggerating or whining when I simply say that our relationship was mostly about sex. Because it was.

I also had very little say over household details and it was my obligation to fit in to the existing order and not expect it to adjust for me.

Over time I felt more like a wife. Eventually I became the wife. And when that happened I was made keenly aware of the difference between being the first/legal/senior wife and a plural/concubine. People treat you differently. Your sisterwives treat you differently. You have a say in how things work and people listen to you. The kids pay more attention to you. Bills in the mail have your name on them.

So some of you can debate this as you want and try to define it but the reality is that women know the difference between a wife and a concubine. If you think you're a concubine then that's probably what you are.

Not that it's bad, either. You just don't get to claim a title you don't deserve. Like I'm not a Duchess or Princess either. I can say it all I want and it won't be true.

Now I'm going to ramble here so I will stop. Thank you if you read this!
I had a long discussion about this with my wife earlier. There are some who will go on the offensive if you're not absolutely perfect in their eyes. Not interested. Moving on. Tried to join about ten years ago, had my ass handed to me because of something I said, left quickly after, thinking of doing the same now.

Now, what was it about your marriage that seemed to make you a concubine? You had no place. Your place was on your back. This is what I'm trying to do by writing and researching - trying to make that place. Concubinage is an ideal that has been lost to the centuries. You were not a wife, you were a toy. Sorry, but you were. It's a shame. Instead of a powerful family, yours was transient.

That sense of belonging, of having a job to do, of having responsibilities, of having authority... those were missing from what I see you wrote. Without those aspects, you don't have a place. With no place, then you're just hanging out, eating the food and getting your sex on. Lonely. I wouldn't stay ten minutes.

The way we are going to do it, is my wife and her sisterwife will sit down and all three of us negotiate. My household is not run on emotion, but on a solid foundation. We will set up jobs, responsibilities and areas of control. Assume I have two women, if a lady comes to me and says, "I don't want responsibility over anything, can I just help?" One lady we were talking to has already asked that - she didn't want responsibilities, she wanted to help one of the women. She was a first wife in a marriage, and didn't handle the responsibility well. To her, it was constant chaos.

You seem sweet. Stand up for yourself.
 
Back
Top