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Example of monogamy-only damage

FollowingHim said:
A lot in this case. This is a marriage ministry. We exist to help people in their marriages. We give advice on marriage based on our own knowledge and experience.

@steve is twice your age, and has more experience of marriage than most men will gain in a lifetime - both success and failure. You will see him and I disagreeing on theology occasionally, but what you may not have picked up is that if I were to actually have marital problems which I needed advice on, @steve is one of a very short list of men whom I would be calling on the phone, because he knows what he is talking about and has made both successful choices and mistakes that I can learn from. Incidentally I'd take no offence at him calling me "son".

While I'm not much older than you, but I've been married for almost half my life, and never divorced, which I say not boastfully but purely to point out that I also know what I'm talking about, for different reasons.

When it comes to marriage, experience matters. People come here to learn about how to have successful marriages - and they will learn this most accurately from those people who have the experience to know what they are talking about.

On this matter, every other person in this conversation actually has experience with marriage - and everyone with experience is universally saying that this is a really bad situation (there is disagreement on details but the general reaction is similar). You stick out like a sore thumb, as the only person saying largely positive things about it - and apparently the only person without relevant experience so the only one who doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

Point being, you should not be here telling @steve to call you a gentleman. You should be the one calling him "sir", sitting at his feet and humbly listening and learning from him - and from all the other men who have said similar things from their own positions of experience. Don't get me wrong, I'm not pushing you away, it's great to have you here @MemeFan, but if you truly don't know what you are talking about when it comes to marriage you should be listening more and saying less, as that means God has brought you here to learn.
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You also have the experience gained from a whole bucket full of children as well. 😂 Though I've been married longer than you, I know I am behind on the experience scale sir.
 
Bartato said:
I had another thought 🤔

I wonder if lesbian "sexual activity" might be comparable to men french kissing other men .

I can't think of a Bible verse that explicitly tells men not to French kiss other men.

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination." (Leviticus 18:22 NKJV)

Clearly homosexual anal intercourse is prohibited, but it doesn't say anything about men standing or sitting and French kissing each other.

It's still a nasty, disgusting, worthless, stupid, and gay thing for men to do. We certainly wouldn't approve of it.
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Any time I am having any difficulty with my intermittent fasting, can I come to you for appetite suppressing banter?
 
MemeFan said:
Find better way.

Being hungry is way bigger problem. It means you are doing something wrong with fasting.
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A. Joke
B. Hell no with bells on to any and all moe energy.
C. I stopped previously discussing carnivore because of your request. I am not starting it back up, but that said...as part of my diving far far deeper into nutrition than in previous times in life, I am fairly good with the ins and outs of fasting. Both theory as well as practice.
 
FollowingHim said:
A lot in this case. This is a marriage ministry. We exist to help people in their marriages. We give advice on marriage based on our own knowledge and experience.

@steve is twice your age, and has more experience of marriage than most men will gain in a lifetime - both success and failure. You will see him and I disagreeing on theology occasionally, but what you may not have picked up is that if I were to actually have marital problems which I needed advice on, @steve is one of a very short list of men whom I would be calling on the phone, because he knows what he is talking about and has made both successful choices and mistakes that I can learn from. Incidentally I'd take no offence at him calling me "son".

While I'm not much older than you, but I've been married for almost half my life, and never divorced, which I say not boastfully but purely to point out that I also know what I'm talking about, for different reasons.

When it comes to marriage, experience matters. People come here to learn about how to have successful marriages - and they will learn this most accurately from those people who have the experience to know what they are talking about.

On this matter, every other person in this conversation actually has experience with marriage - and everyone with experience is universally saying that this is a really bad situation (there is disagreement on details but the general reaction is similar). You stick out like a sore thumb, as the only person saying largely positive things about it - and apparently the only person without relevant experience so the only one who doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

Point being, you should not be here telling @steve to call you a gentleman. You should be the one calling him "sir", sitting at his feet and humbly listening and learning from him - and from all the other men who have said similar things from their own positions of experience. Don't get me wrong, I'm not pushing you away, it's great to have you here @MemeFan, but if you truly don't know what you are talking about when it comes to marriage you should be listening more and saying less, as that means God has brought you here to learn.
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Look, you can try better.

Me being again forum is custom here as is @MeganC's speeches of evil Putin.

I still remember reading @Eristhophanes's epic and most of you don't getting it. I got his message from start. Man is protector and provider, what is this guy speaking?

We use mental models to explain how world works. If mental models contains issue and gaping hole, it can't correctly explain world. This is why someone with bookish knowlegde can defeat "expert". Better understanding of world with "beginner" mindset in unbeatable.

Being provider and protector are goods traits for children survival, but not one to have when woman chooses with from to have children. Here other attributes are more importaint like dominance, assertivness and decisiveness. They make man breedable. And @Eristophanes epic was in this direction.

What you and most of this forum don't understand is that Churchianity has imprinted into you being disregarding being attractive (more fancy word for being considered breedable by opposite sex). And since traits which generate attraction in women are behavioral, they can be relatively easy to fix and can be changed in months. Mindset and head trash are real problems.

And there are big 4: dominance, preselection, conspious consumption and status. Fixing any of this will cause massive reevaluation in women. From loser till "I want him now".

In this situation his wife is providing preselection for acquitance. Just from this he has over 70% chance of sleeping with acquitance. Is like shooting fish in barrel. Only better case in acquitance copying Ruth. He just has not screw it up. In case of very probable case of success with acquitance, acquitance will serve as source of preselection for wife making him more desirable for wife.

There are other things going into favor which I'm going to skip to keep this shorter.

While I think husband's situation fills you with dread, well, for me, possibility of this bounty is enough to start body building.
 
MemeFan said:
What you and most of this forum don't understand is that Churchianity has imprinted into you being disregarding being attractive (more fancy word for being considered breedable by opposite sex). And since traits which generate attraction in women are behavioral, they can be relatively easy to fix and can be changed in months. Mindset and head trash are real problems.

In this situation his wife is providing preselection for acquitance. Just from this he has over 70% chance of sleeping with acquitance. Is like shooting fish in barrel. Only better case in acquitance copying Ruth. He just has not screw it up. In case of very probable case of success with acquitance, acquitance will serve as source of preselection for wife making him more desirable for wife.

There are other things going into favor which I'm going to skip to keep this shorter.

While I think husband's situation fills you with dread, well, for me, possibility of this bounty is enough to start body building.
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The church has taught men wrongly on the subject of attraction. The type of "red pill" truth of attraction you are talking about is very helpful.

Dalrock, Vox Day, Heartiste, RooshV, Rollo Tomasi, and other online sources cover this material.

The servants of Christ (which I think we almost all seek to be) don't want to casually sleep with random women. We seek God approved lifelong unions (patriarchal marriage), children, family, and a godly heritage.

It is possible that this situation may lead to that, but it is highly unlikely.

Bodybuilding seems gay, but getting strong, healthy, and fit does make a man more attractive. That's one of the main reasons I started regularly lifting weights a decade ago.
 
MemeFan said:
While I think husband's situation fills you with dread, well, for me, possibility of this bounty is enough to start body building.
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Yes, I really dread being a husband, the mere thought of seeing my wife and children makes my knees knock with fear...

Seriously @MemeFan, that's crazy.

@MemeFan, there is much truth in many of the details you repeat, and you are wrong to assume that others disagree with those points - headship, fitness and so forth. What you are failing to convey however is balance and context. You've got lots of "bookish knowledge" as you say - in other words you can remember data - but what you appear to be lacking in is wisdom on how to correctly apply that data. That wisdom you could learn from others - or can hope to just learn through trial and error. That's up to you.
 
MemeFan said:
And this is exactly problem. I disagree strongly with you. It's conflict of two different moral systems.

You and @FollowingHim are all seeing how she is bad bad bad wife just because she wasn't completely doing what her husband expected.

I expect wife to do what is in her best interest. Why? It's called being human. And because for me trust means not doing what I tell you, but act in my best interest and tell me literally anything without fear.

And I truly mean literally anything. Including worst parts. Especially those.

There is a just slight problem. You can't punish person for telling you truth. If he/she senses that being sensitive is path to punishment forget about real honesty.

So wife must be rewarded.

It's also reality that woman-woman "action" is by far least "problematic" sexual activity and don't forget: lesbians aren't real. Is least possible "crime".

This can't be longish affair. If this lasted several years he would be by way more pissed. Look at tone. He isn't angry, he is: It's unbeliveable.

What is also most not considered is that wife acted in husband's best interest. Almost certainly wife started having feeling for Charlotte or opposite, something started happening and girls started planning how to turn this into menage a trois. They probably did deed several times.

What is interesting is that nobody here has considered is husband being trustworthy. You are in good company. Same thought didn't occur in husband mind. He can't be blameless. Why wife didn't feel confident to tell him right away, but girls need to search way? This is on him only.

What she has done is female version of man finding lover, telling wife "Lord is OK with polygamy", wife finding truth. While we both agree this isn't optimal approach, it's also not a best way to correct thing. But it's a try to correct things. And this counts and doesn't deserve to be punished. In fact it should be rewarded.

In the end, I'm slightly sceptical about whole situation. We don't know whole story. But I what enough she isn't bad person. Nor a good person.

Situation leaves much to be desires, but evil isn't. Just messy humanlike.
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Pretty interesting perspective. I initially rolled my eyes at this post and never came back to it. Now I realize the depth of the subject goes beyond the wife lying or being a "shit wife."

As you pointed out, there really is no such thing as lesbianism according to scripture, and if i'm correct, the one verse I can recall that could possibly refer to it, doesn't specifically mention it. Therefore, what makes this act cheating or adultery? No man other than her husband was involved, and adultery is clearly defined as a wife sleeping with a man other than her husband, with no mention of women.

This really shows how brainwashed society is and how far we've come from what's actually written and condemned.
I expect wife to do what is in her best interest. Why? It's called being human. And because for me trust means not doing what I tell you, but act in my best interest and tell me literally anything without fear.
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This could really work for some women; it's definitely not the worst idea.

At the end of the day, if this excites you as a husband instead of offending you, you're really doing nothing wrong... regardless of your experience or lack thereof.
 
What you're missing @theleastofthese is the fact that the husband disapproves of it, therefore doing it is disobedience to the husband, which is sin. This is not wrong because lesbianism is wrong (I agree that's debatable), that's a red herring. Nor is it wrong because it's adultery - it isn't.

If patriarchy is correct, this is wrong because it is directly defying the wishes of the husband.
While if patriarchy is wrong, and marriage is egalitarian so both are to offer each other equal love, equal mutual submission and so forth, it is wrong because it hurts the husband so is not demonstrating agape love to him.

Either way, it's sinful - and the reason it is sinful has absolutely nothing to do with either lesbianism or adultery.

Now, if the husband approved of it, we'd be having an entirely different conversation. But that's not the situation that has been presented to us.
 
FollowingHim said:
What you're missing @theleastofthese is the fact that the husband disapproves of it, therefore doing it is disobedience to the husband, which is sin. This is not wrong because lesbianism is wrong (I agree that's debatable), that's a red herring. Nor is it wrong because it's adultery - it isn't.

If patriarchy is correct, this is wrong because it is directly defying the wishes of the husband.
While if patriarchy is wrong, and marriage is egalitarian so both are to offer each other equal love, equal mutual submission and so forth, it is wrong because it hurts the husband so is not demonstrating agape love to him.

Either way, it's sinful - and the reason it is sinful has absolutely nothing to do with either lesbianism or adultery.

Now, if the husband approved of it, we'd be having an entirely different conversation. But that's not the situation that has been presented to us.
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I actually didn't miss that lol. That's precisely why I initially rolled my eyes at the post to begin with. I couldn't help but think "this is simple, she's a liar, she took the authority away from her husband." All of which I agree is wrong by the way but at this point it's been said a thousand times over...

I wanted to highlight the overlooked parts of Memefan's post which held some good viewpoints, brought a different perspective and really highlighted how many of us give little thought to being mislead by society.
 
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Asforme&myhouse said:
Anti-bodybuilding sentiment is indeed the gateway drug to Arminianism
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Now that I think about it, back when I was Arminian, I didn't lift weights. 🤔😳

Nonetheless, bodybuilding is still kinda gay. Remember I said "bodybuilding" not "weight lifting". Weight lifting is awesome.

Looking strong is good, but being strong is better. Men should be more concerned about "being" and "doing" than "looking".
 
FollowingHim said:
What you're missing @theleastofthese is the fact that the husband disapproves of it, therefore doing it is disobedience to the husband, which is sin. This is not wrong because lesbianism is wrong (I agree that's debatable), that's a red herring. Nor is it wrong because it's adultery - it isn't.

If patriarchy is correct, this is wrong because it is directly defying the wishes of the husband.
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My question is, when did the husband tell his wife he didn't want her to be intimate with another woman? If he didn't tell her then there is no wrong done.
 
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I think any wife would have a pretty good idea of what her husband approves of in this area, and saying "well he didn't technically say not to do that" is the sort of excuse I could imagine a child using to justify something they know full well the answer would be "no" to if they asked.
 
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