Has the Sabbath day been lost or do we have it right today?

[andrew]

Who is WE, is it BF?

Gratuitous reminders:

1. Biblical Families has no position on the matter of torah observance and welcomes believers on both sides of that question.

2. We not only have no position and welcome believers from both sides, that welcome extends so far as to include believers from both sides that are skeptical that 'the other side' is on the right track, as long as that attitude is kept in check and does not become adversarial. A little humility and a healthy sense of humor go a long way.

3. This specific forum, the "Messianic Jews / Hebrew Roots Gentiles" section, was set up with the express purpose of creating a forum in which torah-observant believers (whatever their specific beliefs and motivations) could discuss the particulars of said observance without having to defend their beliefs from those who don't share them.​

With those thoughts in mind, I'll submit that it should be reasonably obvious that the "we" IshChayil had in mind was those individuals who share his beliefs and post regularly in this forum, particularly that have posted in this thread.

 

[IshChayil]

I have never heard anyone, Jewish, Hebrew roots, Messianic, sacred name, anyone speak of honoring the new moon. Sabbath, yes, overwhelming. Festivals, to a large extent. New moon, never.

In my opinion, the new moon is an important festival to understand the Sabbath

it's a mitzvah, and it is regarded as such in the Jewish community. To what level that trickles down to various Messianic groups I can't say.
Generally there are 2 big groups of Messianic affiliations in the states; one of them is more traditional and embraces Torah as a requirement and the other group is more like "christianity with bagels and Saturday services".
The first affiliation's congregations are typically more hardcore on torah as a requirement and embrace rabbinical teachings as well.
The other group is more often interested in the cultural value of Yiddishkeit; Hebrew worship songs and meeting on Saturday, and then the whole gambit of unaffiliated inbetweens.

I'm using a broadbrush but I think if you ask leadership from the 2 groups they will generally agree.
I have attended several Messianic congregations in the states as well as Orthodox, Conservative, Reconstructionist, and Reform; many had new moon observances.
Hebrew roots, to be fair are finding their way as they go. They tend to focus on the big picture stuff: sabbath, festivals, some keep kosher, some wear tzit-tzit some don't, very few do tefillin (phylacteries around arm and head).
I would recommend if you have this passion for the new moon perhaps it's the Holy Spirit leading you to introduce it or bring it up to a congregation interested in torah but not doing all the stuff yet. chances are the leadership is just overwhelmed and they'll be happy to have someone spear head an exciting new torah discovery.

More information:
Various issues related to observing the new moon can be found in
Tractate Sanhedrin 41a-b for anyone interested.

 

[IshChayil]

@IshChayil I beg to differ when the Julian Calander was day one of the calander was also declared day one of the first week shifting the days of the week back by one. When Pope Gregory was attempting to move Easter and people went to bed Sept 2 and woke up sept 14 with the days of the week shifting ahead by one day as well to give the pope what he wanted and correcting the first shift. So that a 7th day rest on Saturday again. Figuring out the New moon and lining it up with a lunar Sabbath still requires the calander adjustments every seven years.

Can you source this information please Kev?
It's counter to what I learned when I researched the topic. Thanks

 

[Nikud]

The second is from a Vatican website about the change. I'll get that one and the first I followed a link from the and Orthodox discussion of Sabbath I'll retrace and post in few.

 

[Cap]

it's a mitzvah, and it is regarded as such in the Jewish community. To what level that trickles down to various Messianic groups I can't say.
Generally there are 2 big groups of Messianic affiliations in the states; one of them is more traditional and embraces Torah as a requirement and the other group is more like "christianity with bagels and Saturday services".
The first affiliation's congregations are typically more hardcore on torah as a requirement and embrace rabbinical teachings as well.
The other group is more often interested in the cultural value of Yiddishkeit; Hebrew worship songs and meeting on Saturday, and then the whole gambit of unaffiliated inbetweens.

I'm using a broadbrush but I think if you ask leadership from the 2 groups they will generally agree.
I have attended several Messianic congregations in the states as well as Orthodox, Conservative, Reconstructionist, and Reform; many had new moon observances.
Hebrew roots, to be fair are finding their way as they go. They tend to focus on the big picture stuff: sabbath, festivals, some keep kosher, some wear tzit-tzit some don't, very few do tefillin (phylacteries around arm and head).
I would recommend if you have this passion for the new moon perhaps it's the Holy Spirit leading you to introduce it or bring it up to a congregation interested in torah but not doing all the stuff yet. chances are the leadership is just overwhelmed and they'll be happy to have someone spear head an exciting new torah discovery.

More information:
Various issues related to observing the new moon can be found in
Tractate Sanhedrin 41a-b for anyone interested.

In the Word, does the New Moon signify the first day of the month?

 

[IshChayil]

The second is from a Vatican website about the change. I'll get that one and the first I followed a link from the and Orthodox discussion of Sabbath I'll retrace and post in few.

OK a quick search yields this,

Ten days were omitted from the calendar to bring the calendar back in line with the solstices, and Pope Gregory XIII decreed that the day following Thursday, October 4, 1582 would be Friday, October 15, 1582 and from then on the reformed Gregorian calendar would be used.

I snagged that from searchforancestors.com
I dont' know how reliable that site is.
I'll look more later (6 am need to crash soon). They do have a neat table showing when certain countries adapted the Gregorian calendar on the age I link to.

 

[IshChayil]

In the Word, does the New Moon signify the first day of the month?

Hey Socratic method can take too long in forums.
I'd recommend you make your best argument for this and we'll respectfully consider together.

 

[The Revolting Man]

How do you know God would give you a pass? Maybe he ship wrecked you just to test you and see what you would do?

Because He doesn't reference a beginning point for the seven days. I'm assuming you didn't do any work while you were adrift I the deep so you ca start with the beginning on the new land and still be obeying the command to keep the Sabbath.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Maybe you missed it but I posted scripture in regard to the new moon and am interested in that to try and find out about the Sabbath. I could be wrong but I haven't seen any scripture from you about your position, just statements about what you believe.

Who is WE, is it BF?

I may have missed it but where did those scriptures link the new moon to the Sabbath? I thought the new moon was important to the festivals as the calendar resets by the new moon after the wheat harvest.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I have never heard anyone, Jewish, Hebrew roots, Messianic, sacred name, anyone speak of honoring the new moon. Sabbath, yes, overwhelming. Festivals, to a large extent. New moon, never.

In my opinion, the new moon is an important festival to understand the Sabbath

Why?

 

[Nikud]

Gregory XIII decreed that the day following Thursday, October 4, 1582 would be Friday, October 15, 1582 and from then on the reformed Gregorian calendar would be used.

It's funny how one word omitted in a sentences can make some one make an A**of themself (me) and can change the meaning of the sentence. I read this on the Vatican sponsored page and ran with it because if anybody knew what a pope said it would be a Vatican sponsored website right. Gregory XIII decreed that the following Thursday, October 4, 1582 would be Friday, October 15, 1582. I sent them a email letting them now them know they need to correct it.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Hey Cap, the new moon being the first day of the month doesn't require a reset of the seven day Sabbath cycle. The Law doesn't say, "Six days shall you work except on the new moon." Which it would have to in order for that to be what it means. Now if the new moon is always on a 7 day cycle and you don't have to reset the week with the wheat harvest then it seems like what you're arguing is that we've just got the wrong day, because you'd still basically be arguing for a seven day week that the moon happens to line up with.

I don't understand the reference to the Gregorian calendar since as far as I can tell the Jews didn't adopt it and I doubt they let the Pope change the Sabbath for them.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

So this is where I get to feel smug and superior because I have a simple mind and therefore simplify everything. This is in fact very simple.

Let me start off by saying that I am very willing to stand up to Brother Judah when I think he's wrong. There are a couple of reasons why I think Judah is more right than wrong on this.

The first is the command itself. It says that the Sabbath is the seventh day. It doesn't say when the starting point is. It just says that after six days of work we're to take a Sabbath. It will be the same day of the week once the pattern is started. You work for six days and then rest. It doesn't say rest one day out of every seven. It says work six days then rest. So the command itself doesn't reference a starting point or following the exact day that God rested on. That's adding to the Law. The Law says work six days and then rest.

Now here's why I believe Saturday is not only good enough but the actual right day. Jesus observed it. We have an unbroken history and constant Jewish culture since at least that time. We can state with a high degree of confidence that Jesus observed the Saturday Sabbath without protest. Case closed for me.

On top of that we have to remember that God is a just Judge and we can trust His Laws to be simple and clear and easy to not transgress. He wants us to obey Him. He's not trying to trick us. He would not have left something as important as the Sabbath unclear. If it was figured lunarly He would have told us in the Law, not a poem.

So making it Lunar not only adds to the Law but makes void the Law because you would not be observing the Sabbath on a strict 7 day cycle but resetting every now and again

Remember that God did not set up a precise system. He tied His calendar to the harvests and the moons. The system does reset occasionally.

So God tells us to rest after six days of work. We know Christ almost certainly observed the seventh day. There is no mention of the moon in this Law. We're not told in the Law itself to try and figure what the original day was. We're told to rest on every seventh day. Trust the law. It is sufficient to it's purpose and it doesn't need you to fix it.

I’m pretty sure this whole thread was supposed to end with this post ^^^^^^ just sayin’

 

[FollowingHim]

Numbers 10:10: “ Also in the day of your gladness, and in your solemn days, and in the beginnings of your months, ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; that they may be to you for a memorial before your God: I am the LORD your God.”

2 Chronicles 8:12-13: “ 12Then Solomon offered burnt offerings unto the LORD on the altar of the LORD, which he had built before the porch, 13Even after a certain rate every day, offering according to the commandment of Moses, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts, three times in the year, even in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles.”

Psalms 81:3-4: “3Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day. 4For this was a statute for Israel, and a law of the God of Jacob.”

1 Samuel 20:5 So David said, "Look, tomorrow is the New Moon feast, and I am supposed to dine with the king; but let me go and hide in the field until the evening of the day after tomorrow.


I believe an understanding of the New Moon Feast has to be made to get a clear picture of the Sabbath from a Lunar prospective. And that there could be multiple days of rest at the end of the month between 6 days of work. The Word says that you are to work 6 days and then rest, but it doesn't say anything, except referencing a New Moon day of rest that may fall right after a Sabbath day, about resting more than one day.

As has been noted by Zec, these verses simply state that the New Moon exists. They do not say it has anything to do with finding the sabbath.

The general argument given by most people for the lunar sabbath is:
1) Calendars have changed in the past (see historical references regarding gregorian calendar adoption etc).
2) The moon was created to mark times, and is referred to in scripture (see list of scriptures that happen to mention the moon).
3) We need to get back to the original lunar calendar, which was reckoned in this way (see authors just-so explanation with no ancient references given...)

Are there any ancient references outlining the monthly-resetting week? Or is that just a modern theory?

Note that the dates of sabbaths mentioned in scripture aligning with this theory do not prove the theory. They just mean it is as equally plausible as other calendar options that also align with those dates. Correlations like this can disprove something, but not prove it.

The purely solar calendar of Qumran by contrast at least has ancient textual support. I am not claiming it is correct, but simply that I am inclined to look into it first for this reason.

 

[Cap]

As has been noted by Zec, these verses simply state that the New Moon exists. They do not say it has anything to do with finding the sabbath.

The general argument given by most people for the lunar sabbath is:
1) Calendars have changed in the past (see historical references regarding gregorian calendar adoption etc).
2) The moon was created to mark times, and is referred to in scripture (see list of scriptures that happen to mention the moon).
3) We need to get back to the original lunar calendar, which was reckoned in this way (see authors just-so explanation with no ancient references given...)

Are there any ancient references outlining the monthly-resetting week? Or is that just a modern theory?

Note that the dates of sabbaths mentioned in scripture aligning with this theory do not prove the theory. They just mean it is as equally plausible as other calendar options that also align with those dates. Correlations like this can disprove something, but not prove it.

The purely solar calendar of Qumran by contrast at least has ancient textual support. I am not claiming it is correct, but simply that I am inclined to look into it first for this reason.

The verses quoted state more than just the New Moon exists. It states what to do with it and how important is for reckoning time, and festivals, including Sabbath. The fact that the Word repeatedly tells one to hold the New Moon as the the beginning of every month is significant I believe. And it farther defines each and every important day, 10th, 14th, 21st, 22, many others from that New Moon (day 1) of the month. Then one is told to rest the 7th day. It is obvious to me that there are two sets of ways to look at this. One follows the cycle of the moon to determine the sabbath, the other follows a calendar that supposedly has been going on since the beginning of time with no reset. (I guess there is a third which states, work 6 rest 1, end of story)

Isaiah 66:23 From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the Lord. (I am aware of the discussion that will take place now as to what Sabbath this is really talking about)

No where in the Word does it say we are to use a separate calendar arrangement to determine the Sabbath besides the New Moon.

But, in the end, what anyone does with the sabbath they choose to follow, or not at all, is their business. Unless, I have confused anyone, I am not at all interested in changing anyone's view. I am here to talk about God stuff. Sorry if I have offended anyone with the method I use to do that and I knew very well I am not part of the WE.)

 

[IshChayil]

The verses quoted state more than just the New Moon exists. It states what to do with it and how important is for reckoning time, and festivals, including Sabbath.

Hey Cap this is what @FollowingHim is asking; "where do you see scripture calling out the weekly sabbath in relation to the monthly new moon"?

One follows the cycle of the moon to determine the sabbath, the other follows a calendar that supposedly has been going on since the beginning of time with no reset. (I guess there is a third which states, work 6 rest 1, end of story)

Hey, please jot this down, because it seems you keep ignoring the vital point Zec pointed out. Nobody here, except you (mean that friendly) is making a claim that the sabbath had to be maintained for all of time in order to get it right. The claim that you need to knock down to make progress is that Yeshua (Jesus) observed the Sabbath in Roman times and he had to do it right or else we're all going to hell (he had to be blameless). This is reinforced by the positive "work 6 days then rest on the 7th" so since we know when the Sabbath was in 30AD...it's an unbroken chain you see?

So follow this please: you don't need to go back to the beginning of the world, you only need to trace back to the days of the Messiah.

Now the Julian calendar was invented 40+ years before the Messiah was even born. We still have that calendar in operation today; it's used by the Russian Orthodox church to track their holidays and guess what; saturday still lines up with the Sabbath. (come to think of it, it even sounds like "sabbath" - sūbōta)
Now the point listed by @Kevin which you hurrahed was the mix up converting from Julian to Gregorian calendar. The website he got the material from was in error and now the perspective I set forth from the beginning of this discussion (in the other thread) that the days of the week did not change in the big switch from Julian to Gregorian has been excepted in this thread as Kevin has ceded that point (which he nicely made on your behalf [so don't feel ganged up on, Kev is trying to help even though he disagrees in the true spirit of a Bereans]).

So your position (not you personally just your argument) is kind of in a corner now. We've made the case that the Sabbath from 30AD until now was always on Saturday.
That's what needs to be knocked down for the lunar sabbath concept to prevail.

But, in the end, what anyone does with the sabbath they choose to follow, or not at all, is their business. Unless, I have confused anyone, I am not at all interested in changing anyone's view. I am here to talk about God stuff. Sorry if I have offended anyone with the method I use to do that and I knew very well I am not part of the WE.)

No offense, I think everyone chiming in is interested, myself included.
It's not a hostile discussion, we're seeking out truth.
It's also OK if you decide now to change your mind or if you have some other data we haven't seen. I would politely ask you to refrain from repeating the "you must have faith it's Sabbath on Saturday" or "gotta go back to beginning of time" schtick again though as it's kinda been handled.
It's also fine if you don't want to continue the discussion if it's not fun or edifying any more. I hope you can see the reasoning we've landed on.
shalom

 

[Cap]

Hey Cap this is what @FollowingHim is asking; "where do you see scripture calling out the weekly sabbath in relation to the monthly new moon.

Isaiah 66:23 From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the Lord. (I am aware of the discussion that will take place now as to what Sabbath this is really talking about)

I'm pretty much done.

 

[IshChayil]

Isaiah 66:23 From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the Lord. (I am aware of the discussion that will take place now as to what Sabbath this is really talking about)

I'm pretty much done.

OK but you see that verse does not answer his question. The verse actually substantiates the position that the sabbath is independent of the new moon.
It says "from Sabbath to Sabbath" "from new moon to new moon" it doesn't make the connection of new moon---Sabbath.
The two are on independent cycles as someone earlier pointed out.

G-d bless

 

[The Revolting Man]

Isaiah 66:23 From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the Lord. (I am aware of the discussion that will take place now as to what Sabbath this is really talking about)

I'm pretty much done.

I agree with Ish here. First off this is referring to something that will happen in heaven so it's application to the present is limited. And it still doesn't draw a line between the new moon and the Sabbath. It's a poetic way of saying God will be worshipped for all time.

 

[Nikud]

Are there any ancient references outlining the monthly-resetting week? Or is that just a modern theory?

I'm working on downloading a diagram and file about how the Israelites use to adjust the calender every seven years. It's from a subscription Biblical Archaeology site and you have to pay for files so....I'm looking for a free version.