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Has the Sabbath day been lost or do we have it right today?

the perspective I set forth from the beginning of this discussion (in the other thread) that the days of the week did not change in the big switch from Julian to Gregorian has been excepted in this thread as Kevin has ceded that point (which he nicely made on your behalf [so don't feel ganged up on, Kev is trying to help even though he disagrees in the true spirit of a Bereans]). :)
I am constantly questioning everything even things I believe. Sometimes I jump the gun without doing the proper research, another reason This forum is a blessing because we get to sharper eachother. I still have issue with the changes to the Julian calander before the switch. It went from an 8 day to a 7 day week. With Two 48 hour days added in every 3 years.
 
OK but you see that verse does not answer his question. The verse actually substantiates the position that the sabbath is independent of the new moon.
It says "from Sabbath to Sabbath" "from new moon to new moon" it doesn't make the connection of new moon---Sabbath.
The two are on independent cycles as someone earlier pointed out.

G-d bless
Precisely. The verse says the new moon exists, and the sabbath exists, and God will be worshipped at all times even on the intervening days. It is compatible with absolutely any calendar understanding.

Is there an ancient reference that says "the new moon is the first sabbath of the month, and the sabbath occurs every seven days after that until the next new moon, when it resets"?

I have seen many modern people say this emphatically. I have never seen any ancient source for this system. I am genuinely interested in knowing if it is an ancient system or a modern invention of man.
 
"From new moon until new moon" (ie for the entire month) "all flesh shall come and worship".
Also
"From sabbath until sabbath" (ie for the entire week) "all flesh shall come and worship".
Both phrases (new moon until new moon, sabbath until sabbath) mean "all the time". Both are used as a repetition to emphasise the point, that God will be worshiped continually on all days.

That's all it says by my reading, anything else is reading in other presuppositions, ie is eisegesis. Nothing in this verse indicates the new moon is a sabbath for instance.

This verse is compatible with the idea that the sabbath begins at the start of the month with every new moon being the first sabbath.
It is also compatible with the idea that the sabbath is a continual 7-day cycle regardless of the moon, but the new moon is an additional day of rest that is observed independently of the sabbath.
It is also compatible with the idea that the new moon is nothing but a time marker that does not require a sabbath rest.
It does not prove any one of these.

Really, this verse indicates a time in the future when worship will be so continual that there will be little noticeable difference between the sabbath and other days. In that way, it could be seen as prophesying the end of the sabbath, or rather the sabbath rest becoming continuous. I make this point simply to show that you can read all manner of different interpretations into this verse, thus it doesn't prove any one of those.
 
I agree with Ish here. First off this is referring to something that will happen in heaven so it's application to the present is limited. And it still doesn't draw a line between the new moon and the Sabbath. It's a poetic way of saying God will be worshipped for all time.

This can’t refer to heaven. Because the same passage refers to children being born and people still suffer death.
There is a tendency to spiritualize the success of the gospel. But that would be an error here IMO.
 
This can’t refer to heaven. Because the same passage refers to children being born and people still suffer death.
There is a tendency to spiritualize the success of the gospel. But that would be an error here IMO.

Maybe but I'm pretty sure that it won't be until after His return that all flesh is worshipping Him.
 
I agree it's not talking about heaven. We don't go to "heaven". Sorry to open a whole new can of worms, but it's the easiest way to answer your objection...

When Yeshua returns, He will establish God's Kingdom on earth. The earth will be destroyed and remade to become a new earth, as the physical heavens will become new heavens, and His kingdom will be established here for us to live in. Check the preceding verse, it clearly states that this is to happen in the time of the new heavens and the new earth. The only death that is referred to is the death of those who rebelled and have been judged - this is the second death.

Church tradition is that our hope is to go to heaven. But scripture is clear that our hope is for God's kingdom to be established on the earth, and we will be resurrected to live in it. And at that time this scripture will be fulfilled.
 
I agree it's not talking about heaven. We don't go to "heaven". Sorry to open a whole new can of worms, but it's the easiest way to answer your objection...

When Yeshua returns, He will establish God's Kingdom on earth. The earth will be destroyed and remade to become a new earth, as the physical heavens will become new heavens, and His kingdom will be established here for us to live in. Check the preceding verse, it clearly states that this is to happen in the time of the new heavens and the new earth. The only death that is referred to is the death of those who rebelled and have been judged - this is the second death.

Church tradition is that our hope is to go to heaven. But scripture is clear that our hope is for God's kingdom to be established on the earth, and we will be resurrected to live in it. And at that time this scripture will be fulfilled.
I agree entirely with one caveat— I believe that the kingdom has already been ushered in, on time and as planned and that the Christ is already seated on His throne, already ruling and already redeeming all of creation:

And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.”
Revelation 21:5
 

Because not all flesh is worshipping him yet and we know that in the last days there will be a great falling away so that it will be after the last days that all flesh is worshipping Him and so this must be talking about a time after Christ's return. We can quibble if the term "heaven" is technically correct but you know what I mean.
 
Because not all flesh is worshipping him yet and we know that in the last days there will be a great falling away so that it will be after the last days that all flesh is worshipping Him and so this must be talking about a time after Christ's return. We can quibble if the term "heaven" is technically correct but you know what I mean.
That is the typical pre-millennial view.
But Christ has already ushered in His kingdom and declared that He has. And He is already on His throne where He will remain until no enemy remains, all having been converted or destroyed. And only then will He return to an earth devoid of any enemy of Christ. And then He will destroy the final enemy, death itself.

That is the post-millennial view— the one which most closely approximates my own. However, I reject a final great apostasy and instead affirm that great apostasy as symbolic of the current general rebellion against Christ that we see today.
I agree with B.B. Warfield that we are under the millennium today and that we are in the throes of that final apostasy which Christ will put down over time— as He pours out His wrath upon His enemies until none remain.
And so I would describe myself as an idealist and last day universalist (as opposed to heretical universalism) because I see the last days on earth as being lived by men who all belong to and serve Christ.
 
That is the typical pre-millennial view.
But Christ has already ushered in His kingdom and declared that He has. And He is already on His throne where He will remain until no enemy remains, all having been converted or destroyed. And only then will He return to an earth devoid of any enemy of Christ. And then He will destroy the final enemy, death itself.

That is the post-millennial view— the one which most closely approximates my own. However, I reject a final great apostasy and instead affirm that great apostasy as symbolic of the current general rebellion against Christ that we see today.
I agree with B.B. Warfield that we are under the millennium today and that we are in the throes of that final apostasy which Christ will put down over time— as He pours out His wrath upon His enemies until none remain.
And so I would describe myself as an idealist and last day universalist (as opposed to heretical universalism) because I see the last days on earth as being lived by men who all belong to and serve Christ.

But all flesh isn't yet serving Christ so where does that leave us? As heretical post-universalists or idealistic last days pre-millenialists?
 
That is the typical pre-millennial view.
But Christ has already ushered in His kingdom and declared that He has. And He is already on His throne where He will remain until no enemy remains, all having been converted or destroyed. And only then will He return to an earth devoid of any enemy of Christ. And then He will destroy the final enemy, death itself.

That is the post-millennial view— the one which most closely approximates my own. However, I reject a final great apostasy and instead affirm that great apostasy as symbolic of the current general rebellion against Christ that we see today.
I agree with B.B. Warfield that we are under the millennium today and that we are in the throes of that final apostasy which Christ will put down over time— as He pours out His wrath upon His enemies until none remain.
And so I would describe myself as an idealist and last day universalist (as opposed to heretical universalism) because I see the last days on earth as being lived by men who all belong to and serve Christ.

Look, the point is that this verse is clearly a prophecy that hasn't been fulfilled yet so we can't use it to support a major doctrine that has been in place for thousands of years. It doesn't work. Even if there were a connection in the verse between the Sabbath and new moons (which there isn't) it wouldn't be active until all flesh is worshipping Christ. It's not a proof text.
 
Look, the point is that this verse is clearly a prophecy that hasn't been fulfilled yet so we can't use it to support a major doctrine that has been in place for thousands of years. It doesn't work. Even if there were a connection in the verse between the Sabbath and new moons (which there isn't) it wouldn't be active until all flesh is worshipping Christ. It's not a proof text.

From new moon to new moon and from sabbath to sabbath— this just means that it will be a gradual process (all people coming to serve Christ) that will occur between the spaces of sabbath worship and education in the Word, from week to week and month to month. It is and will continue to be a gradual sanctification of all people (who are not chosen for destruction. )
 
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Kev is trying to help even though he disagrees in the true spirit of a Bereans]).
Please clarify your statement.

These Bereans exhibited several positive characteristics that marked their response to the gospel message. First and foremost, the Bereans were “more noble” because of their willing reception of the Word of G-d. Unlike the unbelieving Thessalonian Jews, the Bereans were eager to hear the teaching of Paul and Silas.

Second, the Bereans examined what they heard by comparing it to the Old Testament Scriptures. The fact that they honestly listened and conducted further personal research led many Bereans to faith in Jesus as the Messiah. This expansion of Christianity was not limited to those within the synagogue, but also extended to many Greek men and women in Berea.

Third, the Bereans guarded Paul’s safety. When Paul’s enemies arrived from nearby Thessalonica, the Berean believers protected Paul by getting him out of the region. They did not turn him over to his enemies or disassociate from him as the Jews from Thessalonica might have expected.

Fourth, the Bereans continued to grow in their faith. After Paul’s departure, Silas and Timothy remained in Berea. Why? The Bible does not explicitly say, but one reason was probably to give the Berean Christians a chance to obtain further instruction in the Christian faith.

Later in the book of Acts, we are given further insight into the faithfulness of at least one Berean man. When Paul decides to return for additional ministry in Macedonia despite the tremendous persecution he had recently faced, one of the men who chose to accompany him was from Berea: “There he spent three months, and when a plot was made against him by the Jews as he was about to set sail for Syria, he decided to return through Macedonia. Sopater the Berean, son of Pyrrhus, accompanied him” (Acts 20:3-4). Sopater, likely a Gentile Christian, continued to assist Paul (and Timothy) in ministry long after Paul’s first visit to Berea.

In summary, the Bereans have long been seen as a positive example of how a person or community should respond to biblical teaching. We are called to eagerly learn from G-d’s Word and, no matter who the teacher is, to investigate new teaching in comparison with the Bible. The practice of the ancient Bereans is a model for all who desire to grow spiritually today.
 
This becomes somewhat more complicated in the case of the Jewish calendar, for it is still coordinated with the phases of the moon. Indeed, it is that which determines the times of the Feast days. This is of particular importance with those that fall on the new moon and those that are celebrated at the time of the full moon. In addition, since the 12-month lunar year is a few days shorter than a solar year, strict adherence to a lunar calendar would mean that the holidays would eventually take place at the wrong season.

This would mean that every now and then we would celebrate Hanukkah, the mid-winter festival of lights, in the middle of summer and Sukkot, the autumn harvest festival, in the early spring. Therefore, in an attempt to coordinate the traditional lunar year with the solar year Judaism has worked out a system of 19-year cycles, in which there are seven leap years. In distinction to the day added to the secular leap year, the Jewish calendar adds a full month to the end of its year. In this manner the Jewish holidays fluctuate by about a month or so in relationship to the Gregorian calendar, but always fall at the same time of year.

I'm not sure about the accuracy of this but check it out for yourself


For an excellent online resource on the Hebrew calendar Claus Tondering has a website with some very informative articles on calendars. There is also an excellent Jewish resource giving valuable and helpful details on the Hebrew Calendar at this website.

Like many calendars before Roman times the Hebrew calendar was a lunar-solar calendar. It was based upon the moon as well as the sun and the passage of the years. The first day of any given month was determined by the first sighting of the new moon. It was a wonderful calendar in that the phase of the moon gave an indication of the the day of the month. Anyone looking up into the night sky could get some idea of where they were in the month. If they had recorded the evening when they first saw the new moon then they had could mark down the ensuing day as day 1. And knowing that the lunar month was about 29.5 days they knew the month would run to either 29 or 30 days. With this they had a celestial calendar they could use with some fairly good accuracy from month to month. Amongst the populace at large they knew the month of the year in which the moon above them was shining. But not knowing precisely when the new moon would be seen they could not plan for, (say), a merchant or a military rendezvous on a certain day in the future with full assurance that all the parties would arrive at the agreed meeting place on the same day.

The key to the lunar-solar calendar was the sighting of the new moon. The new moon is not usually visible to the naked eye until it is 24 hours old. (See the photo above from the Islamic website moonsighting.com/moonphoto.html). And sometimes the new moon would be obscured by cloud. This is why the Hebrew calendar required confirmation by two or more witnesses. There were some definite vagaries in assigning the first day of the month.

THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A PURE SOLAR CALENDAR.
THE ROMAN EMPIRE INSTITUTES THE JULIAN CALENDAR.

The lunar calendar was used by Semitic peoples and many others from ancient times. It was the Romans who in their iron-fisted way decided that they would make an improvement. They would make their calendar fully predictive into the future by ignoring the lunar cycles altogether. They would name and set forth the so-called "months" of the year with the names of their Caesars and other luminaries, and assigning a certain number of days to each. Then, since the year was close to being a quarter of a day over the 365 days they would decree a leap year every four years and add an extra day beyond February 28 to make February 29 the last day of the month that "leap" year. Of course by doing this they would be totally ignoring the actual cycles of the moon.
It was during the reign of Julius Caesar that the Romans set forth their new calendar. It was based solely upon the annual passage of the earth around the sun. They considered the solar year to be so-close to 365.25 that this would be "good enough for government work". By this means they hoped to keep the equinoxes and solstices fixed to certain dates on their solar Julian calendar for some considerable time to come.

This worked fairly well for many centuries. But since the true solar year was actually 365.2422 days and the Julian calendar had been set at 365.25 days the Julian calendar was falling behind the proper dates expected for the equinoxes and solstices and the actual expected dates for the passages of the earth around the sun. The Julian calendar was falling behind by one day every 128 years. After many centuries the Julian calendar had come way out of proper synchronization with the solar equinoxes. Ecclesiastical authorities during the rule of Pope Gregory adjusted the Roman calendar and by dropping ten days off the Julian calendar, (and whilst keeping the weekly cadence the same), they reset the calendar to the solar passages. This was accomplished in 1582. Here is that story.

The Gregorian calendar is the internationally accepted civil calendar. It was introduced by Pope Gregory XIII, after whom the calendar was named, by a decree or a papal bull signed in February of 1582. The reformed calendar was adopted later that year by a handful of countries, with other countries following suit over the following centuries. The need for the Gregorian reform stemmed from the fact that the Julian calendar assumes time between vernal equinoxes is 365.25 days, when in fact it is about 11 minutes less. The accumulated error between these values had amounted to about 10 days when the reform was made in 1582, resulting in the equinox occurring on March 11 instead of March 21 and moving steadily earlier in the calendar. Since the equinox was tied to the celebration of Easter the reform in the solar calendar was a very necessary undertaking by the Western rulers. And the ruling power in the West at that time was the Roman Catholic Church.

The Papal Gregorian calendar is the one we have in the West today. It still tracks along with the annual orbit of the earth around the sun and continues with the same names of the month that had been set by the Romans. It remains a Roman style solar calendar. It still completely ignores the phases of the moon and runs completely independently of the lunar passages.

SOME SHIFTY BUSINESS AT THE COUNCIL OF NICAEA.
WE KNOW FROM THE SEVENTY WEEK PROPHECY THAT THE YEAR OF THE PASSION
CAME IN 32. A.D.. THE NASA LUNAR DATA HEBREW CALENDAR WITH THE NISAN 14 DATE FOR PASSOVER THEREBY ASSIGNING THE
JULIAN DATES FOR THE EVENTS OF HOLY WEEK. THEN RUNNING BACK OUR PERPETUAL
CALENDAR INTO THE FIRST CENTURY TO THE WEEK OF THE PASSION WE DISCOVER THAT THERE IS A MISMATCH OF OUR PERPETUAL CALENDAR WITH HOLY WEEK.

There is more to this story of the Julian calendar than we have been told. This solar Julian calendar did undergo a very significant change at the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D.. It is something we discover as we "connect the dots". Whilst the Julian years and dates of the month were allowed to continue unchanged we can discern that there was a big change to the days in a week AND the weekly cadence of the week. Here is a brief background to the story.
The earlier Roman week, the week that was used by Rome in the First Century, was not a seven day week. It was an 8 day week, in which the days were labeled A-H. This was called the Nundinal Cycle. The 9th day, the first day of the next Roman week was known as "Market Day". At the Council of Nicaea two significant changes were made to the Julian calendar. These changes did not affect in any way the faithful continuation of the Julian year and the running of the days of the month. But the layout of the week was profoundly changed and the cadence of the week as compared to the cadence of the Hebrew seven day week was quite different. Here is what happened.

1. the 8 day week was changed to a seven day week.
2. This new seven day week was reset with the first day of the new seven day week honoring the pagan "Sun" god as "SunDay".Throughout the deliberations and calendar change at Nicaea the passage of Julian years, months, and days of the month remained undisturbed. And so in that regard the Roman Julian Calendar continued unchanged and the dates on the Julian calendar continued as the calendar of Western Christendom. This Julian calendar was upheld by the Roman Church throughout the Dark Ages and on into the medieval era. But, there is an untold story here. As we can see when we lift the covers, it is is a story subterfuge and intrigue.
Let us lay out the facts. With our establishment of 32 A.D. as the Passion Year and what we can see is Biblically correct concerning the weekly layout of Passion Week we can start our search by looking at the Nisan 14 crucifixion date for the Passover of that year. The NASA lunar data will give us the Hebrew calendar and Nisan 14 date to help us lay out the the significant events of the Nisan 14 deathm the Nisan 15 burial on Unleavened Bread, and the Firstfruits Resurrection three days later on the first day of the Week following that epic Passover of 32 A.D. And then, after having put the pieces of the puzzle together we have the correct layout of Passion Week on both the hebrew and Julian calendars. Next, we compare this with the weekly layout we might expect when we run the Perpetual Calendar backwards into the first Century.

And what do we find? Something very very interesting. There is a significant mismatch between our present seven day week, (the one set in motion at the Council of Nicaea, and the seven day week of the Hebrew calendar we saw back in the first century

See this PDF PowerPoint Presentation.

THE BEAUTY OF THE HEBREW LUNAR-SOLAR CALENDAR.
CAN THE BIBLICAL CALENDAR BE RESTORED? AND IS
THIS NECESSARY TO ACCURATELY ANTICIPATE THOSE EPIC
FUTURE EVENTS YET TO UNFOLD ON THE FALL FEASTS OF ISRAEL,
NAMELY THE FEAST OF TRUMPETS AND THE DAY OF ATONEMENT?

The early lunar calendars were agricultural calendars. They were important for planting and harvesting. The Hebrew calendar was set by the priests of Israel every spring. The beginning month of the year was the month of Abib. The word "Abib", meaning "ripe" was the moon which would see the ripening of the barley harvest. This month of Abib was also the month of Nisan.
Nisan was determined by a celestial event. The Nisan moon was the first moon that would become a full moon after the passing of the spring equinox. Nisan thereby marked the first month of the year on the Hebrew calendar for the religious year. The Nisan moon, confirmed by the ripening of the barley harvest determined the month in which Passover would be celebrated.

The lunar calendar set forth years of 12 months or 13 months. In a span of nineteen years, the Metonic Cycle, there were seven years of 13 months. These were years in which the religious authorities would closely examine the new moon in the early springtime after the passage of 12 moons. The Sanhedrin or priests authorized to make this assessment would determine if that upcoming moon was going to come to fullness after the spring equinox or if the full moon would fall short of the spring equinox. If the full moon was going to come after the Spring equinox it would be declared to be the Nisan moon. If it was going to fall short of the spring equinox then it would be declared a second month of Adar, in effect a 13th month for that year. This extra or embolismic month would "push" the following moon, (which of course was now the moon of Nisan), up into the year. This in turn would to make for a late Passover, a late Pentecost, and late Fall Feasts for that year.

So in those years with an extra embolismic month called Adar 2), the Paschal month of Nisan would come later than usual for that year. Passover in such years would be celebrated well up into our Roman month of April. The next year Nisan would fall back 11.24 days and the following year back another 11.24 days until the moon after the 12th moon again failed to come to fullness before the spring equinox. Once again the lunar calendar would have to be adjusted. A second month would need to be inserted into the Hebrew calendar to bring it into proper alignment with the springtime. These extra embolismic months "Adar 2" would push the month of Nisan up into the threshold of the spring equinox and into the time when the barley ripened and became "Abib".

The lunar calendar worked pretty well in its time. For agriculturally based societies and for pilgrim travelers this solar-lunar calendar was very useful. It did not have the predictive accuracy to the very day that the Roman solar calendar provided. But their solar-lunar calendar was very practical and handy for planting and harvest and the Spring, Summer and Fall festivals. It was, in effect, a calendar that God had provided for the people. It was posted up in the sky at night. And it was there for everyone to see.

In its early days of the Semitic peoples and before the 19 year Metonic cycle was discovered the lunar calendar needed attention early every spring. The adjustment of adding in another month was called for 7 years out of the 19 year Metonic cycle. The early Hebrew priest would make their determination of Nisan in the early springtime. When the new moon on approach to the spring equinox was first seen they would determine if it was going to come to fullness before the spring equinox. If it was then it would qualify for the month of Nisan. If it failed to qualify they would consider it a 13th month and declare it as the month of Adar 2. The next moon following it would be be the month of Nisan.

Twelve months of 29.53 days makes for a lunar year of close to 354 days. This is 11.24 days short of the solar year which is 365.24 days. So a calendar containing 12 lunar months falls back 11.24 days every year. Hence the leap months added seven years out of 19.

THE DISCOVERY OF METON IN 432 B.C.
19 YEARS = 235 LUNAR MONTHS.
AND SO THE LUNAR CYCLE = 29.53 DAYS.
THE 19 YEAR "METONIC CYCLE" IS DISCOVERED
WHICH PREDICTS THE LUNAR-SOLAR CALENDAR.

Meton of Athens was a Greek mathematician, astronomer, geometer, and engineer. He lived in Athens in the 5th century BCE. This remarkable scholar was doing what the Greeks did well. He was using Greek logic. He was looking for patterns in nature in an attempt to quantify the natural world. He was deliberately seeking a deeper understanding of the rhyme and reason of things in the universe. When he looked back at what the lunar calendar had actually been doing down through the years he made a very important discovery. Meton noticed that 19 solar years was exceedingly close to being exactly 235 moons in length. He saw that 19 solar years and 235 lunar months both add up to 6940 days.
This was a great discovery. And it had a wonderful application in the solar-lunar calendar. 7 extra months could be neatly inserted into the lunar calendar every 19 years. This would make the solar-lunar calendar predictable over 19 years. In 432 BC Meton introduced the 19-year Metonic cycle into the lunisolar Attic calendar.

This was truly a "Eureka" moment in the history of the solar-lunar calendar. The Metonic Cycle had been discovered! The discovery proved to be of great value. The solar-lunar calendar could be determined ahead of time.


THE CADENCE OF THE METONIC CYCLES.
THE METONIC CYCLE
(1) . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( PA )

(2) 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . .0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( OOMP )

(3) . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0. . 0 . . 0 ( PA )

(4) . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( PA )

(5) 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( OOMP )

(6) . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( PA )

(7) . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( PA )

(8) 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( OOMP )

(9) . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( PA )

(10) . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( PA )

(11) 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( OOMP )

(12) . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( PA )

(13) 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( OOMP )

(14) . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( PA )

(15) . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( PA )

(16) 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( OOMP )

(17) . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( PA )

(18) . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( PA )

(19) 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 . . 0 ( OOMP )
 
The lunar calendar down through history is observed to have a certain cadence to it. See the chart below. Those 7 extra moons coming into the calendar had a certain pattern of appearance over those 19 years. The extra months of Adar are shown in red. Note how this extra month of Adar 2 pushes the following lunar calendar year up 29.53 - 11.24 = 18.3 days ahead in an embolismal year. This is about two thirds of a month further than the year before it. The first month, (in bold lime color), is the springtime month of Nisan. This is the first full moon to appear after the spring equinox. Five times out of the seven, (as can be seen in the schematic), the embolism lunges that one big step forwards up into the solar year to be followed by two smaller steps backwards in the two years following. Twice in the 19 year cycle the calendar only goes one more year before encountering another embolismal year.
HEBREW SAGES PICK UP ON THE METONIC CYCLE AFTER THE TALMUDIC PERIOD.
IN 359 A.D. HILLEL II USES THIS TO CALCULATE AND SET FORTH THE HEBREW CALENDAR.
THIS IS THE CALENDAR NOW IN USE IN JUDAISM.

Here is the math on the Metonic Cycle. The Hebrew calendar year was 12 months of 29 or 30 days with an extra month of Adar II added in seven times in the 19 year Metonic Cycle. A lunar cycle as could be easily calculated from the Metonic cycle was close to 29.53 days. So this made for 12 months which averaged 29.53 days or 354.36 days. But the solar year was 365.24 days. So with each 12 month cycle the calendar would fall back 365.25 - 354.36 = approx. 11 days earlier. This is why the calendar needed to be adjusted by adding in an extra month of Adar seven times in the 19 year Metonic cycle.
The discovery of the Metonic Cycle by Meton was a great boon. It more or less predicted what an observer would see each spring. This 19 year calendar would predict whenever the new moon following Adar was going to fall short of the spring equinox. It would therefore predict the new moons quite accurately from month to month and predict the Nisan moon ahead of time and quite accurately from year to year.

The discovery of Meton of Athens was picked up by Jewish sages after the Talmudic period. The great Jewish scholar Hillel II incorporated the Metonic Cycle and calculated the lunar cycle as 29.530594 days and used this to set forth the Hebrew lunar calendar in 359 A.D..

The setting forth of a rigid Hebrew calendar had become a necessity in view of the Judaic priesthood adopting an elitist attitude and hiding this calendar information from God's covenant people. Y'hovah-God had always intended for family members to come to know Him and His Word and to be a nation of kings and priests before Him. But they had lost this somewhere down the line. And now they depended on the Rabbinical priesthood to answer all their questions. But after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. big problems arose. The Sanhedrin was outlawed by the Romans. This which made calendar authorizations across the nations very difficult for Jews in the Diaspora. They were unsure of when and how to place the annual holy days and festivals. But setting the calendar monthly by new moon sightings and annually by reckoning the month of Nisan as the first moon to achieve fullness after the Roman March 21 Spring equinox would not have been too difficult for them. Isolated Jewish heads of families with this simple knowledge could have set the Hebrew calendar by the sun and moon within a two day accuracy and do it quite reliably. The Karaite Jews and some Christians pursuing their Hebrew roots do this even today. See the text linked article below.

But there was this matter of convenience and absolute calendar unity that seemed to carry the day. This setting of the Hebrew calendar in 359 A.D. saved the authorities of the day from having to sight the new moon and set the month of Nisan every spring based on how they saw the moon come through to achieve fullness after the spring equinox.

But that was not all. There was the matter of politics with Rome. There is good evidence that Hillel II was under pressure from Rome/Byzantium to abide by their new seven day cadence. The Romans had an 8 day "Nundinal Weekly Cycle" running in their pure solar non-lunar calendar. When they went to Council of Niceae they changed it to a seven day week. Did they align their seven day week with the Jewish 7 day week? Why would they? As they gathered at Nicaea the principalities and powers of Rome and the embedded compromised Byzantine Church were in no way inclined to align their seven day cadence with the seven day cadence of the Jews. And when we track the Perpetual Calendar back to passion week which we know came in 32 A.D. and to a weekly cadence we know presented the Firstfruits Resurrection of Christ on Nisan 17 as the first day of the week, that being three days after the Nisan 14 Passover and crucifixion we know for a certainty that Hillel's calendar was forced out of synch with the earlier Jewish weekly cadence. In a word the Roman pagan cadence set by the Roman Church committees at Nicaea was forced on the calculated Hebrew calendar set forth by Hillel II, the one we have today.
 
Quick look online found no one talking about the Council at Nicaea changing the length of the week. Did find the following though. No idea on the veracity of this, just throwing it out there....

As the Roman Empire expanded, it came into contact with Mithraism, which quickly became a popular religious cult in Rome. Mithraism brought a seven-day week with days named after planetary gods.

“It is not to be doubted that the diffusion of the Iranian [Persian] mysteries has had a considerable part in the general adoption, by the pagans, of the week with the Sunday as a holy day. The names which we employ, unawares, for the other six days, came into use at the same time that Mithraism won its followers in the provinces in the West, and one is not rash in establishing a relation of coincidence between its triumph and that concomitant phenomenon.” (Franz Cumont, Textes et Monuments Figures Relatifs aux Mysteres de Mithra, Vol. I, p. 112.)​

“The pre-eminence assigned to the dies Solis [day of the Sun] also certainly contributed to the general recognition of Sunday as a holiday. This is connected with a more important fact, namely, the adoption of the week by all the European nations.” (Franz Cumont, Astrology and Religion Among the Greeks and Romans, p. 163, emphasis supplied.)​

Sunday cannot be the day on which Yahushua arose from the dead, because Sunday did not exist in the eight-day Julian week of His day. Furthermore, Saturday cannot be the true Scriptural Sabbath because the seven-day planetary week originally began on Saturn’s day!

The Baths of Titus, in Rome, were built A.D. 79-81. A stick calendar was found there which clearly shows Saturn, god of agriculture, as god of the first day of the week.

I have a hard time believing the Council at Nicaea changed the calendar; don't think the church was influential enough at that time to do that and make it stick. Hundreds of years later they couldn't even get people to change names. The above attributes it mainly to Mithraism; which in the early days and before Christ was far far more influential.
 
I wrote "....Kev is trying to help even though he disagrees in the true spirit of a Bereans])."
Please clarify your statement.
These Bereans exhibited several positive characteristics that marked their response to the gospel message.
Yes, I was comparing you to the Berean Jews, often called just "the Bereans" for short.
You had stated that you did not agree with the position that the sabbath day was changed (i.e. lunar sabbath position), yet you were still helping out the fella who had that position, so I complimented you that even though you stated you disagreed with his position, you were still presenting evidence to help him out, in the true spirit of the Bereans...
:)
 
Yes, I was comparing you to the Berean Jews, often called just "the Bereans" for short.
You had stated that you did not agree with the position that the sabbath day was changed (i.e. lunar sabbath position), yet you were still helping out the fella who had that position, so I complimented you that even though you stated you disagreed with his position, you were still presenting evidence to help him out, in the true spirit of the Bereans...
Ok ,I highlighted what I thought you were referencing but I wasn't sure. I want to encourage everyone to test every spirit and question everything. Look to scripture find the answers. It's ok if we learn our beleifs are wrong. But until you've exhausted every possibility we don't know, unless G-d sends Rauch Hakodesh to smack you up side the head and say this is the answer, then it's pointless to search any farther.
 
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