I didn't say it was diet alone. I proposed it was a combination of diet, biology, and behavior that may be the reason. Nice to see your name change though.
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How do Hebrew roots folks determine what birds are kosher?
- Thread starter IshChayil
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How definite of a translation is ostrich?
I figure the Ostrich is unclean because, as best as our translators can figure, the Bible says so.
Original Word: בַּת
Part of Speech: noun feminine; feminine; proper name, feminine
Transliteration: bath
Phonetic Spelling: (bath)
branches (1), Danite* (1), daughter (265), daughter or her daughter's (1), daughter your daughter's (1), daughter's (1), daughter's daughter (2), daughters (241), dispersed* (1), granddaughter (4), granddaughters* (1), maidens (2), old (3), ostriches* (1), towns (28), villages (17), woman (1), women (1).
Its either talking about ostriches, Danites, branches, daughters, granddaughters, maidens, women, towns or villages according to Strongs. There's other places that use other names for ostriches but theyre descriptive names like וְאֵ֖בֶל כִּבְנ֥וֹת יַעֲנָֽה which translates as "And a mourning like the ostriches". Ostriches are also called in Hebrew bat haya’anah, ya’en or kenaf r’nanim. Bat haya’anah literally means “daughter of wailing”. So I'm pretty sure it means ostrich.
Part of Speech: noun feminine; feminine; proper name, feminine
Transliteration: bath
Phonetic Spelling: (bath)
branches (1), Danite* (1), daughter (265), daughter or her daughter's (1), daughter your daughter's (1), daughter's (1), daughter's daughter (2), daughters (241), dispersed* (1), granddaughter (4), granddaughters* (1), maidens (2), old (3), ostriches* (1), towns (28), villages (17), woman (1), women (1).
Its either talking about ostriches, Danites, branches, daughters, granddaughters, maidens, women, towns or villages according to Strongs. There's other places that use other names for ostriches but theyre descriptive names like וְאֵ֖בֶל כִּבְנ֥וֹת יַעֲנָֽה which translates as "And a mourning like the ostriches". Ostriches are also called in Hebrew bat haya’anah, ya’en or kenaf r’nanim. Bat haya’anah literally means “daughter of wailing”. So I'm pretty sure it means ostrich.
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I use to have turkeys and every night they would roost on top of the barn or high in the trees. I'm not saying that chickens can fly great but with the right motivation (like a coyote) they can fly some. I've seen them roost off the ground but maybe not as high as the turkeys. This was something I was told way back 20+ yea
Yes but they won't get any gold medals for it. Mine use to roost in trees and on top of the barn. There's a good comment from someone else on ostriches.
I replied earlier, twice by accident. Trying to read this on my phone... It's all so small.... So sorry about that. Still new and trying to figure this all out.
Very noisy! Needless to say I didnt see any deer for a few hours
Having lived in the country all of my life I would say even pigeons will eat nasty stuff. There were the greedy squabs I would list as equal to Cornish cross.
Where are you guys finding ostrich in the list of unclean birds. The closest reference I saw was the ossifragas? And considering He's going thru the list of carrion eaters wouldn't logic dictate that bird would most likely be a carrion eaters too?
Where are you guys finding ostrich in the list of unclean birds. The closest reference I saw was the ossifragas? And considering He's going thru the list of carrion eaters wouldn't logic dictate that bird would most likely be a carrion eaters too?
Really good @Phillip! I'm laughing soooo hard after watching those 2 videos and now reading your post!!!
Ostriches are carrion eaters. Not their first choice but they do eat the dead.
Leviticus 11:13-23
"And these ye shall have in abomination among the birds; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the gier-eagle (Here is where some translate Ossifage), and the osprey, and the kite, and the falcon after its kind, every raven after its kind, and the ostrich (here some translate as owl but its completely different root word from the word owl used later in the next verse), and the night-hawk, and the sea-mew, and the hawk after its kind, and the little owl, and the cormorant, and the great owl, and the horned owl, and the pelican, and the vulture, and the stork, the heron after its kind, and the hoopoe, and the bat. All winged creeping things that go upon all fours are an abomination unto you. Yet these may ye eat of all winged creeping things that go upon all fours, which have legs above their feet, wherewith to leap upon the earth; even these of them ye may eat: the locust after its kind, and the bald locust after its kind, and the cricket after its kind, and the grasshopper after its kind. But all winged creeping things, which have four feet, are an abomination unto you."
Check the Sepitugiant and the Hebrew translation for the same word. The root word or descriptive meaning of daughter/בַּת/bath (phonetic hebrew) used in this part of the verse to name the bird in question. Ostriches are called Bat haya’anah which literally means “daughter of wailing” in Hebrew.
The reason ostrich is odd here is because it doesn't fly. Even the bat, a mammal and insects such as the Locust is included here. This section is about flying creatures Birds, Mammals, and Insects. Yet the written word points to ostrich instead of owl.
EDIT: Maybe I should say winged creature instead of flying creatures.
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Hey bro, Bat haya’anah is actually the term that's used here vs. 16.
bath by itself doesn't ever refer to a bird in Biblical Hebrew. Here if you look close you'll see a little angle sign under bath that's called a munach it's a conjunctive ta'am telling us that it's connected to the word (or words) coming after it (in this case haya'anah).
This kind of bird can be referred to just as haya’anah or Bat haya’anah
The favored scholarly lexicon HALOT defines it as "ostrich". I like your point about it not being a flying thing; maybe the ancients still grouped it in as "should have been a flying thing" haha.
The traditional argument for "ostrich" relates the meaning of the word to "greedy" (via Syriac) & through Arabic via a similar word meaning "stony country" since the ostrich is a desert animal.
The LXX, Targums and Peshitta all translate it as "ostrich" so it's certainly fair for us to do so.
There is, however, a colossal scholar who disagrees: Jacob Milgrom.
In his legendary commentary on Leviticus he argues for "eagle owl".
The 8 volume Dictionary of Classical Hebrew lands on: "ostrich or eagle owl" haha, way to take a stand there Klein!
The older Gesenius-based lexicons (BDB, etc) land on "ostrich"
My German Hebrew lexicon: Strauß? (ostrich?)
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament: Ostrich
Dict. of Biblical Languages with semantic domains: "daughter of greed", or "daughter of the wilderness", ..., a kind of owl, ostrich strutio camelus
@Kevin the reason it''s a different word from owl in the next verse is there are bout 4 or 5 different kinds of owls listed (I know yay!)
In other fun, the gemara discusses this but it's more interested in discerning if "bath" (daughter) refers to the egg of this animal or if it's just the expanded title for the animal.
From the ancient commentators the Rambam and Chizkuni land on bath referring to her egg
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Yeah we already detailed the halachik exegesis earlier in the thread as to how Jews identify which birds are kosher and such. I was curious how Hebrew roots folks (who usually don't dig the ChaZaL) handle it...
(Nice to meet you btw)
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Man I've missed you. Knowledge bombs away!
I thought I pointed that out and the way strongs translated. I guess I wasn't clear. Its good to here from you again. The email stopped and we were getting worried. It was from the writings of Yaakov Abuchatzeria that I got the translation of Daughter of wailing from.
Yeah I've heard that etymology before; I like it.
Strongs is evil bra
Did you send me an unanswered email?
I'm really sorry if that happened. I always make a point to respond to you. I thought you'd stopped writing.
Missed you too Zec!
The last one I sent was a digital copy of my licencing packet and everything I had to learn and a few questions regarding the language used. No sweat, I figured you got busy, but we were going to go with an evangelical mission for 2 weeks to Davao but it got cancel due to something with the Muslim population there and I got a little worried about what was going on there.Yeah I've heard that etymology before; I like it.
Strongs is evil bra
Did you send me an unanswered email?
I'm really sorry if that happened. I always make a point to respond to you. I thought you'd stopped writing.
Yeah Mindanao (the big-arse island that Davao is part of), is where the shiesse hits the fan sometimes (one part of it trying to be autonomous sharia law area etc). I've never gone to Davao as they sometimes kidnap Westerners. Plenty of need on all the other islands, maybe pick a different island.
If you sent me a big attachment it may have bounced. I'm always running low on space with my email account and they don't let me offload it unless I upgrade to a paid account.