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How do Hebrew roots folks determine what birds are kosher?

If they were unclean then they should have been in the list, surely. But when you think about what they will eat given the chance, they don't seem to be very clean.
I'm not saying their unclean but exactly what you said given the chance they'd eat anything, We change the world around us. We also have affected the eating habits of livestock and animals we domesticated. Take dogs for example, look at what they eat because of what we feed them.
Chickens do eat anything, but those raised in barns and killed for supermarkets certainly never get the chance to.
I worked for Tyson for about a month. Alot of cramped angry chickens killing and eating eachother. The ones I raised on our farm I gave 3 times the necessary space, made sure they had plenty of feed, grass, veggie scrapes, and didn't have the issues of cannibalism, just how filthy they were. Then looking at my grandmothers genetically breed monstocities that ate any and everything possible because they had to injest enough calories.
Does scripture give any reason beyond just a list?
Sure, the reason beyond the list is because G-d said to. Lol
Some have suggested that the laws of kashrut fall into the category of "chukkim", laws for which there is no reason. We show our obedience to G-d by following these laws even though we do not know the reason. Others, however, have tried to ascertain G-d's reason for imposing these laws. You'll find those reasons in the Misnah and Talmud.

As for
All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination
I thought the Kings James version could be referring to dragons???
 
I wondered that too, but I think it's referring to insects. The ones named like locusts etc were apparently considered to have only 4 legs as the back legs were not for creeping on the ground but for jumping into the air.
In my Tanahk its clear it was talking about insects. Out of the diffrent species of locust, 4 species are considered kosher because of the usage of their back legs and also because they spend more time in the air or perched on plants (the others live in holes in the ground).
 
My youngest son was unhappy when I told him dragons weren't kosher. It destroyed his dream of rediscovering dragons and eating one.
 
So I'm being lazy but I'm pretty sure I saw the King James list swans as an unclean bird and that gives me pause about ducks and geese. Anyone have any insight here?

The Sages got together and analyzed those verses, reading between the lines (like any of us who want to eat kosher do) to come up with some guidelines. Then the existence of, say, the prairie chicken, or the American turkey that the Sages were unaware of created a few qusetions. In general, the scholars’ rules prohibit the eating of birds that are predators (dores, in Hebrew), citing all the birds of prey in the list that appears in the Bible. (This turns out to not be that helpful; hawks are easy to peg as predators, sure, but many birds are omnivorous, or mostly vegetarian but occasionally found to feast on bugs or small amphibians or who knows what else.) But the guidelines, not being as binding as laws that actually appear in the Bible, are a little fluid, and if a biblical scholar makes a strong enough argument, he can ban or allow the eating of certain birds within his community as long as it doesn't conflict with scripture. Those rules include stuff like “does the gizzard have an inner lining that can be peeled?” and “do Jews have a history of eating this creature?” Even with more specific interpretations like these, it can still be very difficult to figure out whether it’s OK to eat a bird if the bird is so unlike any you’ve ever seen.

For example, Muscovy are an unusual species of duck (though DNA testing shows they might not actually be ducks) native to the warmer parts of the New World, it achieved some popularity among the residents of such cities as New Orleans by the mid-1800s. At that point, New Orleans had a smallish but observant Jewish community, which was eating Muscovy duck just like the rest of the locals. That is, until one Rabbi Dr. Bernard (Yissochar Dov) Illowy moved from what’s now the Czech Republic to New Orleans to lead the Jewish community there. Illowy, through sheer force of personality, created a firestorm of debate about the Muscovy duck that exists to this day.
 
Trust me, it doesn't take cramped spaces to get chickens to hunt meat or each other. Same for cows and eating flesh. It's just who they are, creation doesn't fit into the neat little boxes we put them in.
 
The diet of pigs vs. chickens is barely any different; yet one is prohibited and one not. I know people use the animal's diet as some of the big reasons for kosher, but I just don't see it. Does scripture give any reason beyond just a list?
The clean vs unclean animal thing is interesting; it was known even in the ancient world prior to the giving of the Law (Noah was directed to take a pair of every unclean animal).
I'm sure you are aware of the "health" connection people try to make but I find that reasoning to be a mistake. I have a solid idea on this but unlike many other ideas I've shared in public over the years, this one's going in a book :)
I've made the mistake of sharing original ideas before only to find they end up somewhere :p
Be that as it may, the primary purpose is obedience, not health. Every day choosing to eat in accordance with the rules of the Kingdom trains us to not falter on larger matters just as mumbling a blessing over everything we eat or drink to the greater "at all times I will bless Him, His praise shall be on my lips, my soul makes her boast in Adonai"...
Like a little kid eager to please a parent, the kosher rules afford us another lovely way to demonstrate love for our creator that "man does not live on bread alone" so we may die to our flesh and it's temptations.

That list claims all fat is prohibited. However one of its citations is not so all encompassing (Leviticus 7:23-25):
If I remember correctly certain traditional Jewish dishes are cooked with chicken fat; i.e. fat off a clean animal which also isn't not on that prohibition list. I see kosher chicken fat is sold online.
While חלב.ḥelev (fat which covers entrails [kidneys & liver], breast, or shanks] per HALOT) is not kosher, it's treated differently than other treif (unkosher) items. It's permitted to be used in cooking the meat. Traditional Jews do not mix dairy products with meat products so they can't cook with butter (dairy). Instead, they use שמאלץ šmāltz (Yiddesh word) to "butter the pan" as it were.
I think the reasoning is that fat is very difficult to completely separate from the animal anyway so you will always be cooking with some fat on there. So you can cook with the fat, but you can't eat the fat.
 
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My youngest son was unhappy when I told him dragons weren't kosher. It destroyed his dream of rediscovering dragons and eating one.
You can tell him there is a scenario where he could. Perhaps when he hunts down the dragon, it will be on a remote location where there is no food, just scalded, volcanic earth. He'll be so tired and hungry after slaying the dragon and it will be just too far to go to get more food (his rations were all spilled when he held on the dragon as it twirled through the sky trying to shake him off)... it's eat dragon, or starve... any food becomes kosher in life or death scenarios..
 
After being introduced to Torah, we started raising chickens, and eating chicken, believing they were clean. After a few years, we noticed they ate really gross, toxic things - live or dead scorpions, toads, turtles, snakes, black widow spiders (we lived in the Texas hill country).

Then we heard that there were a number of Jews that do not eat chickens believing they were unclean, even though rabbinical traditions deem them clean. Oddly, there are also rabbinical traditions that chickens were not allowed in Jerusalem due to their uncleanness. Just one of MANY contradicting Jewish traditions, lol. The cock that crowed 3 times as a sign for Peter is said by some to be a Hebrew idiom for the priest on duty calling everyone into the Temple for morning worship, or the morning watchman. Those who have doubts about their cleanness say there is too much uncertainty about the Hebrew words used in the kosher bird list in Leviticus. When the Jews were exiled they lost touch with Hebrew and had to relearn it, and don't have full knowledge of all the Hebrew words in the Hebrew text of the Torah.

We also read that chickens were domesticated in more modern times, they used to be wild jungle birds. That is still the case in places like Hawaii, they are still found in the wild, in the jungle.

Due to uncertainty, and a desire not to defile our temples with unclean meats, we've decided not to partake of chicken, turkey, duck, goose, etc...There is even question as to whether the quail was really quail. So we stick with what we KNOW is clean, to lean on the side of caution, because we do not want to offend our Heavenly Father or those who belong to Him. Our cravings for chicken and turkey are not so strong that we find this a burden. Honestly, after owning chickens and seeing how "FOWL" (even raised them free range, organic, non-gmo on almost 9 acres) they are, lol, there are no cravings here. We know dove and pigeons are clean, even ceremonially clean, so looking forward to getting some doves and pigeons and tasting some of that meat one day soon.

As for eating fat, there are two different Hebrew words for the fat on an animal carcass. One is for the fat around the internal organs which were burned up in the sacrifices. This is the fat we are commanded not to eat. The fat marbled in the meat and that is not found around the internal organs is a different Hebrew word. I believe fat in the tail of the sheep is also not to be eaten. There are fat tailed sheep in the middle east and this is considered delicacy, but I wouldn't eat that tail fat.
 
After being introduced to Torah, we started raising chickens, and eating chicken, believing they were clean. After a few years, we noticed they ate really gross, toxic things - live or dead scorpions, toads, turtles, snakes, black widow spiders (we lived in the Texas hill country).
Then we heard that there were a number of Jews that do not eat chickens believing they were unclean, even though rabbinical traditions deem them clean. Oddly, there are also rabbinical traditions that chickens were not allowed in Jerusalem due to their uncleanness.
Regarding chickens eating gross things; I think the grossest thing any bird eats is live worms. It's hard to classify birds as kosher or not based on their diet unless they are birds of prey. That's why I'm interested to know how Hebrew roots folks do it. The "allowed for sacrifice" is certainly reasonable and safe.

Would you mind sharing which sect(s) of Judaism you read don't eat chicken today? I'm curious to know more about that; I know many centuries ago there were some "chokhamim" of the Karaites who questioned the bird's kashrut. I'm fairly sure they since resolved that minority opinion within their sect (they are the smallest Jewish sect today with less than 40k members worldwide).
I think the "uncleanness" issue with chickens in the old city has to do with their poop and not their kashrut status. Cats are allowed in the old city today because they are "clean" but you can't eat a cat. It's a cleanliness issue not a טמא (unclean) issue in Jerusalem.

Just one of MANY contradicting Jewish traditions, lol.
ROFL

When the Jews were exiled they lost touch with Hebrew and had to relearn it, and don't have full knowledge of all the Hebrew words in the Hebrew text of the Torah.
Not everyone was deported from Judah. Many remained; so are we to imagine those who stayed somehow forgot their native language?
Also, the length of the Babylonian captivity was not long enough to cause even the deportees and their children to forget their native languages. As a people we were in Egypt nearly 4 centuries and didn't loose Hebrew; the Babylonian captivity was only for a generation in duration. The "bird words" which are debatable are exotic birds like "ostrich" which we can pin down from the LXX and other ancient versions.

Due to uncertainty, and a desire not to defile our temples with unclean meats, we've decided not to partake of chicken, turkey, duck, goose, etc...There is even question as to whether the quail was really quail. So we stick with what we KNOW is clean, to lean on the side of caution, because we do not want to offend our Heavenly Father or those who belong to Him. Our cravings for chicken and turkey are not so strong that we find this a burden. Honestly, after owning chickens and seeing how "FOWL" (even raised them free range, organic, non-gmo on almost 9 acres) they are, lol, there are no cravings here. We know dove and pigeons are clean, even ceremonially clean, so looking forward to getting some doves and pigeons and tasting some of that meat one day soon.
Reasonable, thanks for sharing. My old rabbi only eats vegetarian because he lives in an area where it's hard to get animals slaughtered according to Jewish law. This seems like a similar reasoning to your sticking with only birds you are certain are identified clearly in scripture as kosher.
 
So @Kevin touched on a couple of these rules already. I'm going through Deuteronomy again this week and noticed the JPS commentary has a nice, terse blurb which may sum up the 4 characteristics of forbidden birds:

...Virtually all the forbidden winged creatures are birds of prey or scavengers. Halakhic exegesis identified four characteristics as common to them all:
  1. they lack crops,
  2. they lack an extra toe on the back of the foot,
  3. the sac in their gizzards cannot be peeled off, and
  4. they tear their prey.
Tigay, J. H. (1996). Deuteronomy (p. 139). Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society.
 
So @Kevin touched on a couple of these rules already. I'm going through Deuteronomy again this week and noticed the JPS commentary has a nice, terse blurb which may sum up the 4 characteristics of forbidden birds:

...Virtually all the forbidden winged creatures are birds of prey or scavengers. Halakhic exegesis identified four characteristics as common to them all:
  1. they lack crops,
  2. they lack an extra toe on the back of the foot,
  3. the sac in their gizzards cannot be peeled off, and
  4. they tear their prey.
Tigay, J. H. (1996). Deuteronomy (p. 139). Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society.
Fascinating!
 
So @Kevin touched on a couple of these rules already. I'm going through Deuteronomy again this week and noticed the JPS commentary has a nice, terse blurb which may sum up the 4 characteristics of forbidden birds:

...Virtually all the forbidden winged creatures are birds of prey or scavengers. Halakhic exegesis identified four characteristics as common to them all:
  1. they lack crops,
  2. they lack an extra toe on the back of the foot,
  3. the sac in their gizzards cannot be peeled off, and
  4. they tear their prey.
Tigay, J. H. (1996). Deuteronomy (p. 139). Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society.

Now this is invaluable. I only pipe up because I'm sometimes a little harsh on this kind of stuff but these are superb principles that help to comply with the imperatives. Thank you for sharing this.
 
Would you mind sharing which sect(s) of Judaism you read don't eat chicken today? I'm curious to know more about that; I know many centuries ago there were some "chokhamim" of the Karaites who questioned the bird's kashrut. I'm fairly sure they since resolved that minority opinion within their sect (they are the smallest Jewish sect today with less than 40k members worldwide).

@IshChayil, it sounds like you are Jewish? You mentioned having a rabbi and said "we" were in Egypt nearly 4 centuries. If you are Jewish, I'm sure then that you don't need me to educate you on the matter, but to answer your questions, I don't know of a SECT of Jews that avoids eating chicken, but I do know of individuals within different Jewish sects that avoid it, regardless of whether they do or do not have a rabbi they follow that tells them what is "Kosher" or not. Like Christians, I don't know of any Jewish folks that agree 100% with what their religious leaders or religious sects deem biblically clean or not. Yes, I've heard Orthodox, Ultra Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, and Karaites all say they avoid chicken. Not their sects, but individuals within the various sects. So, yeah, there are still Karaites in existence today that refuse to eat it. I'm sure the Karaite leaders believe they resolved that minority opinion, but that minority opinion is still there.

Not everyone was deported from Judah. Many remained; so are we to imagine those who stayed somehow forgot their native language?
Also, the length of the Babylonian captivity was not long enough to cause even the deportees and their children to forget their native languages. As a people we were in Egypt nearly 4 centuries and didn't loose Hebrew; the Babylonian captivity was only for a generation in duration. The "bird words" which are debatable are exotic birds like "ostrich" which we can pin down from the LXX and other ancient versions.


Oh, I was not referring to the Babylonian captivity mentioned in the Bible, sorry for not being clear, though Nehemiah 13:23-24 does say they did forget the language of Judah, just being gone 70 years, during the Babylonian exile. I was referring to when the Jews went into exile after the Romans destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem, 70 years after Messiah. It's the consensus in the Jewish community that the Hebrew language was forgotten and had to be relearned, that they are still unsure of many words in the Bible. If you are Jewish and don't agree with that consensus, than you would be a Jew with a different opinion than many Hebrew scholars, and I don't fault you if that's the case. I certainly don't agree with most Hebrew scholars on most things! I learned that from them when I briefly studied Judaism. I promise I am not making that claim on my own. There may have been some Hebrew speaking Jews left behind in the area of Judea, but from what I understand, according to many accounts of history, Jewish and gentile alike, the Jews were not able to maintain their national identity, culture, language, etc...they were under foreign rule for hundreds of years, persecuted in the Crusades and other times in history, and required to assimilate wherever they were, lest they be exiled from where they scattered or killed. Due to the disobedience of those in Judah at the time of Messiah, since it was obedience to the Father and faith in His Son that creates an environment of unity, Judah lost its unity, hence the reason we have all these sects. Jewish sects (Pharisees, Saducees, Essenes, etc...) existed when the Son was walking on the Earth. They just have different names and arguments now. Only faith in Yahusha Messiah and obedience to His commandments will bring them/us into unity in Spirit and Truth in the Father. There are many arguments in the Jewish community about what is the true ancient Hebrew language/dialect. Some say Sephardic, some say Ashkenazi, or Yiddish, others say it's more like Aramaic. They all have evolved, just like the English language. Most English speakers don't know the letter J did not exist in the English language just a few hundred years ago. Oh, how the English language has changed since my grandmother was a child! Since I was a child! So no, I do not find it hard to believe that they forgot some Hebrew words over the last 2,000 years.

Reasonable, thanks for sharing. My old rabbi only eats vegetarian because he lives in an area where it's hard to get animals slaughtered according to Jewish law. This seems like a similar reasoning to your sticking with only birds you are certain are identified clearly in scripture as kosher.

Well, I certainly applaud your old rabbi for sticking with his convictions. That can be a heavy burden for others, an unnecessary one. For their sake, I hope someone explains the difference to them between kosher according to Jewish law and clean according to Torah law. According to Torah, YHUH gave everyone in Israel permission to hunt deer and the like out in the field, and to slaughter animals from their own flocks and herds, to eat, in this same manner, wherever they live. Deuteronomy 12. No mention of needing a rabbi to bless it or put a "K" on it. Personally, we only eat meat that we've slaughtered, so we know how it's slaughtered - blood poured/drained out and covered with dirt, humanely and all that. For some, it's easier to go vegetarian than raise their own animals for food. Not a sin, good on them.
 
As for the 4 characteristics, might be true, I don't know, but I'd be afraid of replacing the commandments of Yah with traditions of men like the Pharisees were accused of doing. I don't want to strain a gnat and swallow a camel. I'd rather avoid both. If the Bible just said to avoid birds with these 4 characteristics, I'd be cool with it, but it doesn't. So, I'm back to just sticking with what I know for sure is clean to eat among the birds - doves and pigeons. The rest is still debatable, and I don't condemn those who eat ostrich, chicken, turkey, goose, or peacock. I don't KNOW they are unclean, so everyone should eat according to their convictions is my conclusion.
 
As for the 4 characteristics, might be true, I don't know, but I'd be afraid of replacing the commandments of Yah with traditions of men like the Pharisees were accused of doing...
Analyzing known species of bird forbidden in the torah to find commonalities is a far cry from "replacing the commandments of Hashem"
Come now, enough with fearing that the only people who kept torah for the past 2 millenia might actually know a thing or 2 about it...
 
Just figure out which birds there were seven of on the Ark.
 
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