First off, there is no such thing as the Law of Moses. It’s God’s Law He w through Moses. Secondly, headship and submission are only expressly laid out in Paul’s writings.
-
Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.
- Status
"Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments."
- Malachai 4:4
I think that's enough warrant to refer to it as "the law of Moses".
Paul has some great "gotcha" verses that are fantastic for patriarchy, headship, and submission. But he isn't pulling those ideas out of thin air. These things are taught by Torah.
- Malachai 4:4
I think that's enough warrant to refer to it as "the law of Moses".
Paul has some great "gotcha" verses that are fantastic for patriarchy, headship, and submission. But he isn't pulling those ideas out of thin air. These things are taught by Torah.
I agree that it came from the Most High:
Ezra 7:6 NLT
Ezra came up from Babylon. He was a teacher well versed in the Law of Moses, which the LORD, the God of Israel, had given. The king had granted him everything he asked, for the hand of the LORD his God was on him.
There’s plenty in the instructions, and commandments that implicate headship. For example - the husband is allowed to multiply wives. The wife is not allowed to multiply husbands. The husband is allowed to issue her a certificate. The wife is not. The husband is allowed to cancel any vows she made. The wife is not. We can even go back to Genesis when the Most High issued this commandment:
Genesis 3:16 NKJV
To the woman He said: “I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you.”
So even though it’s not expressively stated - if you add up all the instructions - the truth is exactly what the Apostles in the New Testament describe. Headship and authority from the husband.
Last edited:
Bruh... I bolded what the Greek says literally.
Luke 2:22 τὸν νόμον Μωσέως - The Law of Moses
Luke 24:44 τῷ νόμῳ Μωσέως - The Law of Moses
John 7:23 ὁ νόμος Μωσέως - The Law of Moses
Acts 13:39 τῷ νόμῳ Μωσέως - The Law of Moses
Talk about copium.
Oh days! I'm so sorry! I've been pretty ill these past few days (fevers and a cold), genuinely read your response wrong, and just responded to the last mention of the subject I saw. Probably not the best moment to make a comment when your head isn't clear... I'm so sorry about that
I knew it was suggested earlier thought it was a joke at first and then it sounded like it actually wasn't anyway....
Last edited:
No worries! I understand how easy it is to missunderstand something.
Get well soon!
Perhaps Luke and John weren't as well versed in Hebrew and Greek as you are?SO - have we ever had this discussion?
The Greek rendering is WRONG!
The Hebrew word "torah" means "teaching and instruction."
It’s still not the Law of Moses. It’s God Law He gave through Moses. Moses didn’t write any of it. God did. One of you risks deifying Moses and the other risks taking away from scripture.
Bruh... I bolded what the Greek says literally.
Luke 2:22 τὸν νόμον Μωσέως - The Law of Moses
Luke 24:44 τῷ νόμῳ Μωσέως - The Law of Moses
John 7:23 ὁ νόμος Μωσέως - The Law of Moses
Acts 13:39 τῷ νόμῳ Μωσέως - The Law of Moses
Talk about copium.
It’s God’s Law, some unspecified portion of which has been fulfilled by Christ.
Perhaps they didn't speak modern English, and knew the difference.
Some of you are so dogmatic in trying to describe a single tree that you ignore the forest.
Is that a Douglas fir, or a Scotch pine? Or did some Un-named Entity make the whole forest? (And He probably wasn't named "Douglas," nor was He Scotch.)
And arguably Newton didn't create the "Second LAW of Thermodynamics" that bears his name. But he did quantify a few things, and instruct about it.
Oh, yeah - and that "LAW of Gravity."
Can you actually OBEY it? Or 'keep' it?
Can you understand the difference (in Greek, or in English!) between understanding some things about it, and maybe trying to learn what effects it has on your life, as opposed to pretending you can defy it?
PS> I learned to fly a plane decades ago. Some instruction about aerodynamics, physics, flight patterns, even a bit of physiology, was part of the learning process. But I NEVER, not once, ever claimed that because I could ["had liberty to..."] fly, the "LAW of GRAVITY" had been "done away with."
Is that a Douglas fir, or a Scotch pine? Or did some Un-named Entity make the whole forest? (And He probably wasn't named "Douglas," nor was He Scotch.)
And arguably Newton didn't create the "Second LAW of Thermodynamics" that bears his name. But he did quantify a few things, and instruct about it.
Oh, yeah - and that "LAW of Gravity."
Can you actually OBEY it? Or 'keep' it?
Can you understand the difference (in Greek, or in English!) between understanding some things about it, and maybe trying to learn what effects it has on your life, as opposed to pretending you can defy it?
PS> I learned to fly a plane decades ago. Some instruction about aerodynamics, physics, flight patterns, even a bit of physiology, was part of the learning process. But I NEVER, not once, ever claimed that because I could ["had liberty to..."] fly, the "LAW of GRAVITY" had been "done away with."
Last edited:
I’m so glad the prohibition of arguing torah observance only applies to us non-pharisees.
You don't have the authority to literally rewrite what GOD had written down for us. He elected to say "Law of Moses". You may not like the wording but He gets to decide that, not you, or I, or Mark or any other man.
It is the Law God gave through Moses, He instructed it written down, and Moses wrote it.
I'm not discussing observance of anything, nor am I discussing NOT observing anything. I'm specifically dealing with the fact that you don't like what God's Word says. And standing against someone wanting to rewrite The Word.
It is certainly called "The Law of Moses", it's written that way in Greek, it's written that way in English. Don't twist it. Don't wrest it.
So learn what WORDS mean. In English, if you can't - or won't - understand the original.
Hint: PHYSICISTS know it; Lawyers [sic - correct spelling: Liars] DON'T.
YHVH Created the Universe, and Wrote its FUNCTION in "Law" - the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, the Law of Gravity, His "Iron Law" that you reap what you sow, His literal molding of human nature itself.
Then He Wrote Instruction for US about it. Thing will will keep you alive. Things that will help build a society that doesn't do what this one is now.
AmeriKa-with-a-K today is a steenkin' fetid MESS because too many dumbed-down Publik-Cesspool Mis-EduKid morons don't even understand the difference between the 'Supreme Law of the Land,' and an executive order by a traitor who gang-rapes the Bill of Rights.
And people prattle about "LAW" when they don't even understand statutes and local ordinances. Much less "traditions of men" pretending to be what they aren't.
From Struther Martin in "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid"
"Morons. I've got morons on my team."
Get a concordance, man. At least PRETEND to be teachable.
But quit acting like a dog with a bone over things you prefer to ignore.
Good, Fr!c#en Grief - even in ENGLISH there's an obvious difference between the definitions for "law" between science and post-Constitutional Legalism. Are you so willfully blind as to ignore even that? And PULEEASE don't try to tell us "God wants us to be gay." "He" used that word in the KJV, too...
You won’t ever find one instance the Pharisees were condemned by the Creator in the Flesh for keeping and teaching his Law of Moses. They were condemned when they were teaching their Talmud - aka - the oral traditions (traditions and laws of men - that were placing a heavy burden on his people). Which they still teach today.
If the Creator in the Flesh was condemning the Pharisees for teaching and obeying Torah - he would not had been the real Messiah.
Last edited:
It’s translated as the “Law of Moses.” That does not mean it’s Moses’ law.
We're not saying it's Moses' Law. We're saying the Creator decided to have His Law called - "The Law of Moses." His Ways are higher than our ways. He has his reasons for calling it the "Law of Moses." Even though the smallest letter came from the Creator.
Malachi 4:4
Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.
Luke 16:29 (Parable of the rich man and Lazarus):
29 But Abraham said, ‘Moses and the prophets have warned them. Your brothers can read what they wrote.’
31 But Abraham said, ‘If they won’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they won’t be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’
Last edited:
I hate to assume the worst… but you do realize adding that apostrophe changes the statement right?
I didn’t say it was “Moses’ Law”. I quoted scripture, which you failed to do. Your insistence at repeating a falsehood does not make it correct.
But He didn't. He called it His 'torah', His "teaching and instruction."
Why is He 'redundant'? Why are two DIFFERENT Hebrew words MIS-translated there in the same English verse? (both "LAW" - but NEITHER actually is!)
Remember ye the law [torah, "instruction" - bigger than just 'law'] of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. (Malachi 4:4, KJV)
And, amazing - "statutes" [chuqqim] and "judgments" [mishpatim] ARE actually words that have a "law" understanding. But they are just elements.
When He means "statutes, judgments, and commandments," - He says so. And when He means instruction, including everything from those elements, to stories, to precedents, to parables - He says so too! And He says "torah". Moses even Wrote it down at His command.
PS> And for those who still hate His "law" - by whatever name, and like to try to "trigger" those who don't - note the phrase "all Israel," in that verse. Some might hate that, too, and refer in ignorance to just one-twelfth part of that with a pejorative, but the rest of us believe that being "grated in," to kol Israel is a great promise from the "Salvation of YHVH."
- Status