Correct.
Fixed the omission there for ya. He gave the law unto Israel. Deut 4 & 5. It's important to get right because He did not give His Law through Moses to the Canaanites did He? Was His law given to the Amorites?
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The Messiah was an Israelite. From the root of David. Tribe of Judah. And if the gentiles want to walk how he walked - they’d become bigger Israelites than the Talmudic Jews that are living in the country of Israel:
Hosea 2:23
At that time I will plant a crop of Israelites, and raise them for myself. I will show love to those I called ‘Not loved.’ And to those I called ‘Not my people,’ I will say, ‘Now you are my people.’ And they will reply, ‘You are our God!’”
Pay attention to Paul’s wording when he quoted that same passage:
Romans 9:25
25 Concerning the Gentiles, God says in the prophecy of Hosea:
“Those who were not my people, I will now call my people. And I will love those whom I did not love before.”
I can show you scripture after scripture - it’s pleasing to the Heavenly Father when people choose to walk in his Torah - especially through faith in his Son. There’s promise of blessings.
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I’m not repeating a falsehood. I’m planting a flag against two falsehoods that are coming from opposite directions but that both arrive at the same place. Technically we can call Christ Jesus the Nazarene. It’s a correct title. In my experience though, those who use that title are trying to diminish Christ’s divinity.
Likewise when Torah keepers and Hellenized believers talk about the Law of Moses they’re both usually trying to accomplish an end, a destructive end. I can quote you numerous scriptures about the holiness of the given through Moses, how perfect it is and how vital. The entirety of Psalm 119 is a literal ode to it. Using the phrase “Law of Moses” is like calling Jesus the Nazarene, technically correct but by no means anywhere near the entire truth.
He described it in far more ways than that. Why do you focus on that one? It is by no means the most descriptive. Are you trying to elevate Moses? That way there be dragons.
I have now deleted a series of messages from multiple participants in this conversation. I nearly deleted the one I’m responding to. It was as close to the line as one can get and not cross it.
The next steps are time outs. You can not accuse of other members of heresy or apostasy without overwhelming proof and never in public until all of the steps have been taken.
The Acts are explicitly clear in stating that Torah keeping and non-Torah keeping believers worshipped side by side at the time of the Apostles. Anyone who can not follow the example of the early church is in error and needs to repent.
Neither side can disfellowship the other and the side that does is the one most in need of repentance.
I only used “Law of Moses” because it’s commonly known as the first 5 books. Much of the Torah on marriage and headship is found in the first 5 books. Whereas - Torah - can be throughout scripture. I have almost always described the Law/Instructions as the Creator's Torah. His Creation. His Rules. His Ways. Who appeared in the flesh as Yahushua (Jesus) the Messiah, and is our Rock and Savior. Which is what his name means - Salvation of YAH or YAH saves.
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Almost none of the teachings on headship are in the Pentateuch. Most of them, such as they are, are in Paul.
Yes you are. You are removing part of scripture because you think it can be used against your dogma. You specifically said that phrase does not exist, it does. Your reasoning is that a twisted version of that phrase does not exist so therefore the one in scripture does not exist. That is falsehood.
*the only changes I've made to your quotes are to bold text and add color to highlight as well as the numbers and word clarification in blue. I don't know exactly what word you intended so I inserted my best assumption (gave).
(1) There is listed at least 20 times the phrase "law of Moses" is used in English, or "Torah Moshe" in Hebrew, "ho nomos Moyses" in Greek.
None of us have the authority to remove ought from the Word of God. You have stated it does not exist. This violates Deuteronomy 4 among others. Jesus himself used the phrase. Your insistence on it's lack of reality is contrary to the very words of Christ. That does not leave you in a good place my friend. You're at variance with Christ on this matter.
(2) This statement is correct, I don't know anybody arguing against this truth. It's obvious and true. But because it is true, does not negate the other obvious truth, that there is quite literally and explicitly IN SCRIPTURE and BY THE VERY WORDS OF GOD something called "ho nomos Moyses". To say it does not exist is patently and demonstrably false as well as removing from scripture.
Again, one falsehood, followed by the obvious truth. Then another falsehood. Who penned it? Scripture explicitly tells us Moses wrote it down for Israel.
Deuteronomy 31:9 And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and unto all the elders of Israel.
It does not say "Moses made up the Law". It says "Moses wrote this law".
I have removed nothing from scripture, you are attempting to do so through the two false statements in red above.
Correct, the law of Moses is God's Law. It was created By God, given to Israel through Moses, God instructed Moses to write it down. But that set of laws penned by Moses are described numerous times as "The Law of Moses". **For the kindly viper, yes the word instruction is an acceptable substitution, and it makes no difference to the text.
AHA, like I said, now we get to the crux of the issue. You are changing the words in scripture to fit what's in your head. Scripture does not say "Moses' Law". I am not saying "Moses' Law". I don't know anybody else who is saying that. It's idiotic. So how about you stop saying it for us and straw manning the argument or interpreting scripture in an idiotic manner. It is obviously not "Moses' Law" because it's not written that way. It's written "the law of Moses".
The law does not belong to Moses, that's why an apostrophe is not used to denote the possessive. Do we really need to get into 3rd grade grammar? Honestly... This is silly.
No, you're straw manning and false framing along with trying to remove clear demonstrable scriptural text. I will copy any paste them all below.
Again, we come to a core issue. You want to remove scripture because someone somewhere might do something wrong. We don't remove scripture because someone might do something wrong. You're making a straw man argument with a false usage of a term and definition that I am not using.
You are again attributing malice or assuming the possibility of malice because you don't like the logical conclusion. Do not remove scripture because someone might possibly want to argue against something you hold dear to your heart. And don't straw man the argument or falsely frame my argument.
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- My only claim is that the phrase "does exist".
- And that to say it "does not exist" is falsehood. You cannot attribute malice to my assertion that the Word of God is true.
Here is the phrase "the law of Moses" in the Word of God you have repeatedly claimed "does not exist".
1. Jos 8:31
As Moses the servant of the LORD commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lift up any iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the LORD, and sacrificed peace offerings.
2. Jos 8:32
And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he wrote in the presence of the children of Israel.
3. Jos 23:6
Be ye therefore very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the book of the law of Moses, that ye turn not aside therefrom to the right hand or to the left;
4. 1Ki 2:3
And keep the charge of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and his testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest, and whithersoever thou turnest thyself:
5. 2Ki 14:6
But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
6. 2Ki 23:25
And like unto him was there no king before him, that turned to the LORD with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his might, according to all the law of Moses; neither after him arose there any like him.
7. 2Ch 23:18
Also Jehoiada appointed the offices of the house of the LORD by the hand of the priests the Levites, whom David had distributed in the house of the LORD, to offer the burnt offerings of the LORD, as it is written in the law of Moses, with rejoicing and with singing, as it was ordained by David.
8. 2Ch 30:16
And they stood in their place after their manner, according to the law of Moses the man of God: the priests sprinkled the blood, which they received of the hand of the Levites.
9. Ezr 3:2
Then stood up Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and his brethren the priests, and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and his brethren, and builded the altar of the God of Israel, to offer burnt offerings thereon, as it is written in the law of Moses the man of God.
10. Ezr 7:6
This Ezra went up from Babylon; and he was a ready scribe in the law of Moses, which the LORD God of Israel had given: and the king granted him all his request, according to the hand of the LORD his God upon him.
11. Neh 8:1
And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded to Israel.
12. Dan 9:11
Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.
13. Dan 9:13
As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.
14. Mal 4:4
Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
15. Luk 2:22
And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;
15. Luk 24:44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
16. Jhn 7:23
If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
17. Act 13:39
And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
18. Act 15:5
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
19. Act 28:23
And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
20. 1Co 9:9
For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
Liar.
It's right here in this thread, and you know it. But you ignore Truth you don't like.
The word "torah" is NOT 'identically equal to" the English word "law," it is, by ANY measure, at minimum, a superset.
Repeating a couple dozen mis-renderings proves ABSOLUTELY NOTHING except stubborn arrogance. Because every SINGLE one of those verses ultimately references the INSTRUCTION, arguably penned by or at least via Moshe, but Written by the Hand of YHVH, and taught in the flesh by Yahushua, the "Salvation of Yah."
He was the Teacher, Who Taught His own Word, as He Wrote it. See Matthew 7:29, at the conclusion of His First Public Address, where He made that point - undeniably.
There is a point to be made by distinguishing, correctly, between "Law" and what is in fact INSTRUCTION ABOUT His "Law" - How YHVH MADE His Creation.
One more time, for those confused (perhaps deliberately) by the smoke and obfuscation of dogma:
"Law" to a physicist, at least, means something which is ALWAYS - and that means always - True; because it is HOW He made the Universe. Any single failure renders it a mere "theory," or falsifiable. Again, example abound. Gravity, F=MA (in the broader, relativistic sense even.) Laws of Thermodynamics. Entropy.
"Instruction" (Hebrew, 'torah') is given by the Creator for our benefit. He tells us how to "walk' in obedience, and that blessings flow from that obedience to Him, conversely - cursings. Examples again abound: Marriage - His way. Even "dishonest weights and measures" - and we are again seeing that play out, just as it has in EVERY SINGLE CASE of a 'world fiat reserve currency' in human history. Contract. Bailment. Liability and negligence. Even a "man's word is [or SHOULD be!] his bond," when men still did that. And look what happened when "restitution" ended up being the paganized "jail!"
This is not hard. Neither is reading what He Wrote about marriage.
And that's why so many just plain REFUSE to read it!
His Instructions (torah in Hebrew) - which is always translated to "Law" in the modern renderings - are for our own good:
Joshua 1:8
Keep this Book of the Law (torah) always on your lips; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful.
1 Kings 2:3
Observe what the LORD your God requires: Walk in obedience to him, and keep his decrees and commands, his laws and regulations, as written in the Law (torah) of Moses. Do this so that you may prosper in all you do and wherever you go.
2 Kings 14:3-5 NLT
Amaziah did what was pleasing in the LORD's sight, but not like his ancestor David. Instead, he followed the example of his father, Joash.
Amaziah did not destroy the pagan shrines, and the people still offered sacrifices and burned incense there. 5 When Amaziah was well established as king, he executed the officials who had assassinated his father. 6 However, he did not kill the children of the assassins, for he obeyed the command of the LORD as written by Moses in the Book of the Law (torah): “Parents must not be put to death for the sins of their children, nor children for the sins of their parents. Those deserving to die must be put to death for their own crimes.”
Joshua 1:8
Keep this Book of the Law (torah) always on your lips; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful.
1 Kings 2:3
Observe what the LORD your God requires: Walk in obedience to him, and keep his decrees and commands, his laws and regulations, as written in the Law (torah) of Moses. Do this so that you may prosper in all you do and wherever you go.
2 Kings 14:3-5 NLT
Amaziah did what was pleasing in the LORD's sight, but not like his ancestor David. Instead, he followed the example of his father, Joash.
Amaziah did not destroy the pagan shrines, and the people still offered sacrifices and burned incense there. 5 When Amaziah was well established as king, he executed the officials who had assassinated his father. 6 However, he did not kill the children of the assassins, for he obeyed the command of the LORD as written by Moses in the Book of the Law (torah): “Parents must not be put to death for the sins of their children, nor children for the sins of their parents. Those deserving to die must be put to death for their own crimes.”
I don't know of someone teaching that God did not give law through Moses. You're going to have to show proof where I know this to be a fact or repent of your false witness. I don't expect you to ever do so. Lawless.
If you can show me proof I'd be happy to apologize to Zec for my lapse in memory along with my assumption about your being lawless. (but I'm not holding my breath) I make it a habit to not pay too much attention to certain members on this forum because they just blather on doing what κατατομήν blather about. So it's entirely possible someone has said God didn't give the law through Moses. I however am currently unaware of it.
I didn't say "identically equal to". Straw man. I said "the word instruction is an acceptable substitution" Do you really think a straw man argument is going to fly? Your definitions for words are not what I use thanks, nor is your knowledge the arbiter of all truth. Talk about arrogance and hubris. I use the contextual usage of the Hebrew or Greek word as it is found in scripture as the foundation of all definitions. Not "The Official Dictionary of Bible Truth According to Mark Call"®. So, nah... I'll not be accepting your perverted definitions and doctrines to even attempt to discover anything truthful about God's Word. You've made it abundantly clear your judgement is not to be trusted any more than the word of a politician or pope.
Since apparently we're being childish on this thread... This seems apropos.
I'm rubber, you're glue, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you.
I'm so glad you have enlightened us to the fact that God's instructions change. I agree. If his "instruction" were always the same it would be "law". But it seems by your juxtaposition and comparison between the two you have clearly explained torah changes unlike law. I would say His instructions to different people are different. For instance Levitical priests had a certain set of requirements before that priesthood was μετατιθεμένης . Those instructions to Levitical priests are no longer valid because there is no Levitical priesthood. So yeah, I agree that His Torah/Instructions, do change from time to time.
Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed(μετατιθεμένης), there is made of necessity a change (μετάθεσις) also of the law(instruction).
Thanks Mark! I'll start using that logic.
Maybe I was wrong and you have brought something positive to the forum after all! I apologize for my earlier remark that you bring nothing but drama to the forum. You contributed that little nugget of logic which is an excellent one. Kudos!
I'm not debating keeping or not keeping Torah as you are here. I'm talking about whether or not the words "The Law of Moses/The Torah Moses" are in scripture. Debating keeping or not keeping the Torah are not permitted in the forum my dude. And for what it's worth I do keep His Torah and do so with thanksgiving and joy.
Where did I say the phrase does not exist? This is an inaccurate accusation brother.
Where?
It’s described a number of ways in a number of places. Why are you so fixated on this one?
You kind of are.
I do not want to remove scripture, I want to add back in all of the descriptions of the “Old Testament” so that we get a fuller understanding of what place it should hold in our theology.
My concern is that an autistic fixation on the “Law of Moses” from either side will obscure that.
Are you being obtuse? I quoted you numerous times. Post #89
Meat - It's Paul...is it 'Scripture'?
We're not saying it's Moses' Law. Correct. We're saying the Creator decided to have His Law to Israel called - "The Law of Moses." His Ways are higher than our ways. He has his reasons for calling it the "Law of Moses." Even though the smallest letter came from the Creator. Fixed the omission...
biblicalfamilies.org
I didn’t say the phrase didn’t exist in one of those posts. If that’s your proof you should just get straight to the apologizing.Are you being obtuse? I quoted you numerous times. Post #89
Meat - It's Paul...is it 'Scripture'?
We're not saying it's Moses' Law. Correct. We're saying the Creator decided to have His Law to Israel called - "The Law of Moses." His Ways are higher than our ways. He has his reasons for calling it the "Law of Moses." Even though the smallest letter came from the Creator. Fixed the omission...
I wasn’t debating keeping or not keeping Torah. I stated that in scripture there are blessings for walking in the ways, and instructions of the Heavenly Father. None of us will do it perfectly - none of us have it 100% right - but that’s why we have an advocate to put our trust and faith in. Our High Priest and King - YAH’s own salvation - Yahushua.
The Father in Heaven did say he wants his people to be set apart and Holy to him. Not to imitate the ways of the other nations. There are many ways we can be set apart and Holy to him - according to his Word. One obvious example is headship and polygyny.
End of the day - every man needs to do what he thinks is best for his own household. “Iron sharpens Iron.” So there’s profit in talking about the Word.
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Be still, my heart.
Proof is here, you ignore it, so I'm not "holding my breath," either. But I respond ONLY in the forlorn expectation that someone may actually benefit from some tiny bit of the interaction. Perhaps making clear the VITAL POINT you so mule-headedly ignore:
"Law" is but a subset of His broader Instruction, 'torah'. And EVERY violent disagreement about the Messiah, what He did, and did NOT do, hinges on that gross misunderstanding! If He "did away with "the Law" (of whoever penned it for posterity) then That Guy can NOT be the promised Messiah, a "prophet like unto Moses." He would be, in fact, what Paul warned of, "another jesus whom we have not preached."
The Law of Gravity still applies. It didn't change at Calvary. And neither did men's physical bodies, digestive systems, or their need for His Instruction to be 'written on their heart." But I have "liberty" to fly a plane...not because the 'law' was done away with, but because of greater understanding of His Creation.
Therein lies the rub.
Idiocy. "Substitution" is a synonym for equivalence. When it changes the meaning, you lose. So you don't know what "straw man" means, either. NOT equivalent.
Is a "parable" somehow "law"? Or is it a method of teaching and instruction?
The fact that you refuse to see, or admit, any difference doesn't mean other here might not be able to do what you can't. And then see why it matters!
But here's a straw man, and ignorance of context to boot:
Duh. But did His instruction change? Or does it just not apply to US, in this context, since we are NOT 'cohenim?'
Do you not understand that "instruction" for women doesn't apply to men? Or commandments, even, for kings, don't apply to us who are not kings? This is not "rocket science," but it is a childish, and transparent, bit of flatulence.
It's not His Instruction that changes. It is the context under which it applies. And it requires a bit of discernment. Clearly that is a problem for some.
No. Some things apply, some things don't. This is "not too hard for you." (Well, OK, not for those who can handle even a bit of meat...)
Any move toward 'logic' at all would be a pleasant surprise.
This, however, is just childish:
You don't read what IS there, but do read stuff in.
And Yahushua said that "not one yod or tiddle" of His 'torah' would change, so long as "heaven and earth," still exist. You owe Him an apology.
If you could handle "meat" maybe you wouldn't insist on milk instead. Or is that just a matter of maturity, and instruction in accord with what those "weak in the faith," clearly can't handle?
This thread, which I initiated, had to do with "what is Scripture," and - in particular - why the Whore Church tend to "pick and choose," and elevate some things that Paul wrote ABOVE things that his Messiah said, and Wrote, which seem to contradict it. Do we have discernment? How do we reconcile what is "Law" (and what is NOT!) with what is instruction about it...and whether it is YHVH Himself, or mere men, that are teaching (and MIS-teaching) it.
Discernment. We should cultivate it. Some don't. "He who has ears, let him hear."
The whole above debate is ridiculous. Really, all you grown men arguing over whether to call the Law "The Law of Moses" or "Moses' Law" or "God's Law delivered through Moses", or whether the word "Law" should be "Torah" - really, do you not have anything better to do? Once again, you're arguing over words, "...doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings...".
More importantly, it's all far too close to a debate over Torah for this site. I'm locking the thread at this point.
In summary: God delivered laws to the Israelites. He did so through Moses. Moses wrote them down. For simplicity, the laws that Moses wrote down are often referred to as "the law of Moses" to refer specifically to them rather than the things that God said through other people. The word "law" is the Hebrew "Torah" and might be better rendered "instruction", so an alternative rendering is "the instructions of Moses", or "the instructions through Moses".
One paragraph. Done. Goodnight.
More importantly, it's all far too close to a debate over Torah for this site. I'm locking the thread at this point.
In summary: God delivered laws to the Israelites. He did so through Moses. Moses wrote them down. For simplicity, the laws that Moses wrote down are often referred to as "the law of Moses" to refer specifically to them rather than the things that God said through other people. The word "law" is the Hebrew "Torah" and might be better rendered "instruction", so an alternative rendering is "the instructions of Moses", or "the instructions through Moses".
One paragraph. Done. Goodnight.
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