Justification by Law Keeping

[Earth_is-]

What Paul says through the Holy Spirit:

Galatians 5:3-6
I’ll say it again. If you are trying to find favor with God by being circumcised, you must obey every regulation in the whole law of Moses. 4 For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace.

5 But we who live by the Spirit eagerly wait to receive by faith the righteousness God has promised to us. 6 For when we place our faith in Christ Jesus, there is no benefit in being circumcised or being uncircumcised. What is important is faith expressing itself in love.

Romans 2:28-29

28 For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision. 29 No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by the Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people.

King Jesus fulfilled the law for us. The law is still there if you wish to be justified by the law. But I’m relying on the righteousness, faith, mercy, grace, and gift of eternal life from the Creator - King Jesus Christ. What does Jesus ask in return? Repent and be reborn by “Spirit and Fire” for your faith in Lord Jesus. And Jesus says those that love him - keep his commandments. What are his commandments? Love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. The Master Jesus even says:

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

This same theology is repeated by the Israelites concerning this new covenant:

Acts 15:10
So why are you now challenging God by burdening the Gentile believers with a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors were able to bear? 11We believe that we are all saved the same way, by the undeserved grace of the Lord Jesus.”
And so my judgment is that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead, we should write and tell them to abstain from eating food offered to idols, from sexual immorality, from eating the meat of strangled animals, and from consuming blood.

 

[FollowingHim]

@Earth_is-, what is your point? This is the Messianic section, which exists to let people with a Hebrew Roots perspective on theology discuss things of this nature without having to debate it with others. If your point is to debate whether people should follow the Law, this is the wrong place for your post, but even we don't need any more of those debates anywhere on the forum. On the other hand if your point is simply that justification is by grace alone, through faith alone, I think you'll find everyone already agrees with you. Have I misunderstood what you are trying to discuss?

 

[Mark C]

Honestly? What an idiotic name for a thread.

And Samuel is right. Not like it hasn't been debunked before, and ignored.

 

[Mark C]

PS> What do you get when you take a Strawman out of context?

A fire hazard.

 

[steve]

@Earth_is-, what is your point? This is the Messianic section, which exists to let people with a Hebrew Roots perspective on theology discuss things of this nature without having to debate it with others. If your point is to debate whether people should follow the Law, this is the wrong place for your post, but even we don't need any more of those debates anywhere on the forum. On the other hand if your point is simply that justification is by grace alone, through faith alone, I think you'll find everyone already agrees with you. Have I misunderstood what you are trying to discuss?

Personally, I don’t mind at all someone coming into this section to challenge my beliefs.
But bring something that hasn’t been said, repeating arguments that have been made ten dozen times already is nothing more than childish harassment.

 

[NVIII]

Personally, I don’t mind at all someone coming into this section to challenge my beliefs.
But bring something that hasn’t been said, repeating arguments that have been made ten dozen times already is nothing more than childish harassment.

I am so glad you welcome challenge! I had a bad taste starting to think we had "safe spaces" here and people who needed them. I hope y'all can have patience with those who haven't been here for 14 years and seen it all. Search terms don't always turn up the goods. Plus it gives you a chance to tone those debate muscles.

 

[steve]

I am so glad you welcome challenge!

Intellectual challenge, yes.
Mindlessly repeating prior arguments, no.
Please respect us enough to read what has happened before you entered the chat, having to respond to each new person who thinks that they are Yah’s gift to the lost is boring and stupid.

I had a bad taste starting to think we had "safe spaces" here and people who needed them.

There was a time on this site where that actually was a requirement because of the scorched earth policy that certain heavy hitters were practicing. The “need” to stamp out thought that differed from their own was so powerful in their lives that it destroyed their voices here.

I hope y'all can have patience with those who haven't been here for 14 years and seen it all.

As I have indicated, go back and study what has gone before and don’t be just another clamoring voice trying to get attention with stale arguments.

Search terms don't always turn up the goods.

Try a little harder, ask questions if you need help.

Plus it gives you a chance to tone those debate muscles.

Please, that is totally unnecessary. We’ve been there and done that numerous times and it’s just boring.
The only reason that we have to respond to each new contender is to show browsing readers that there are two sides to the argument.

 

[The Revolting Man]

4 For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law,

I don’t know anyone who this verse applies to.

 

[NickF]

It's very important that we don't misunderstand and use straw man arguments. There is a resounding response from those who keep the law of Moses (Torah), that they are not justified by keeping the law. So that is agreed upon, don't argue that Torah Keepers are trying to be justified by the law.

There is a similar silly straw man that states evangelicals "hate the law" or "hate those who keep the law". This is likewise untrue. These arguments prevent any true deep fellowship from occurring and only serve to divide brothers in Christ.

Let us endeavor to not speak past each other and instead try to set aside our preconceived notions, and truly hear what our brothers actually believe.

We all love the law because it has brought us to Christ and salvation. The only difference is evangelicals say the majority of the law is fulfilled in Christ and are freed from it, while Torah keepers say * it is nearly eternal and they choose to keep it to the best of their ability as a demonstration of their love for and desire to be righteous before God. It is keeping the law that demonstrates their faith with their works.

*If I understand correctly that is.

 

[Earth_is-]

If you're keeping the law out of love for Christ - not justification for salvation - then that's your personal relationship with Christ, and no one should condemn/judge you because that's between the servant and master:

Romans 14:3-4
3Those who feel free to eat anything must not look down on those who don’t. And those who don’t eat certain foods must not condemn those who do, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to condemn someone else’s servants? Their own master will judge whether they stand or fall. And with the Lord’s help, they will stand and receive his approval.

 

[Mark C]

I am so glad you welcome challenge! I had a bad taste starting to think we had "safe spaces" here and people who needed them...

Actually, as one who objected vehemently to the "Messianic Ghetto" concept, (and in the interest of 'debate muscles' I'd point out that my problem was exactly the opposite.

Intellectual challenge, yes.
Mindlessly repeating prior arguments, no...

In fact, as one who DID drink the sun-god-day kool-aid (before it went full Bud Lite) I CAME to the conclusion that I had "inherited lies from our fathers" by such debate, and by seeing things - including, but NOT LIMITED TO 'marriage,' like food, and His moedim, and 'money', and His Name, and so many others, that I admit some frustration when it seems some who are here BECAUSE they recognize part of the Big Lie don't seem to be teachable enough to consider that there is so much more.

We’ve been there and done that numerous times and it’s just boring.
The only reason that we have to respond to each new contender is to show browsing readers that there are two sides to the argument.

Amen. And - SOMETIMES - because we've been on the other side, and recognized the Deception - we have a very different attitude. I have no problem with those who, like many of us, have recognized the Lie.

I have NO PROBLEM with those who seek His Truth as the Bereans did. The essence of the concept of "midrash" is difficult questions, and challenging 'orthodoxy'.

But endless repetition of that Big Lie, as if Hitler was right and we'll eventually go back to the plantation, is just boring.

 

[Mark C]

Let us endeavor to not speak past each other and instead try to set aside our preconceived notions, and truly hear what our brothers actually believe.

We all love the law because it has brought us to Christ and salvation.

I loved the above comment, Nick. But, just to do exactly what you suggest, I'll pick on this particular summary:

The highlighted words, in my mind, outline any vital distinction. (Even though it's been made, arguably to distraction, I still contend that "words mean things." And the Original Language is the key to that distinction.)

The Hebrew 'torah' is NOT 'law'. It is BIGGER, and INCLUDES things that sound like "law" in English, statutes, judgments, commandments. Also stories, parables, and precedents. But "law" is easier to disregard, in an era when, "lawlessness abounds." Arguably to the point of Plagues and Judgment from the "Supreme Judge of the Universe."

And we can't "keep the Law" any more that we can "keep" the "Law of Gravity." It just IS. But ignoring it (particularly when dealing with airplanes or cliffs ) - can bring 'curses'.

As to "christ" - the Greek word is so expansive that they are literally "legion." Yahushua Himself warned against their overabundance. (Matthew 24:23-25)

The "Salvation of Yah," on the other hand, is literally His very Name. His 'job description,' too. And, as has also "been done before" - it distinguishes His singular character that is ultimately and totally Truth in the flesh.

 

[Mark C]

Romans 14:3-4
3Those who feel free to eat anything must not look down on those who don’t. And those who don’t eat certain foods must not condemn those who do

But I still gotta ask: Where DO you get these 'translations'!

"Eat anything?" Including "not food"? You gotta be kidding.

I guess I don't "look down" on those who just love to eat the $#!!t that the dog left in the yard. But I might advise them that there are better choices.

Well, ONCE, anyway...






PS> It occurs to me that when it comes to the "Law of Gravity," and cliffs, there might not be a second warning.

 

[FollowingHim]

If you're keeping the law out of love for Christ - not justification for salvation - then that's your personal relationship with Christ, and no one should condemn/judge you because that's between the servant and master:

Well that's all sorted then. Nothing more to debate. What a relief.

 

[Bartato]

...On the other hand if your point is simply that justification is by grace alone, through faith alone, I think you'll find everyone already agrees with you.

I don't think this is necessarily true, and this is something I have repeatedly tried to gain clarification on from our TK friends (to little avail).

For example, I had a post questioning whether we are ultimately accepted by God based on Christ's perfect righteousness imputed to us, or based on ultimately becoming good enough to merit acceptance by God (via His grace infused in us by the Holy Spirit, after having our guilt removed by Christ's atoning death).

The first is what Protestants mean when they say "by grace alone, through faith alone". I believe this is the Biblical answer.

Faith = Justification + Obedience

The second is the view of the Roman Catholic Church. I am persuaded that it is a very serious error.

Faith + Obedience = Justification

Grace is infused to us by the Holy Spirit (which is manifested by obedience to God and His Law) but we are ultimately accepted because of Christ and His perfect righteousness not the infused righteousness.

Steve said he doe not hold to the view of "imputed righteousness". I don't think PeteR ever gave me a straight answer, suggesting that he hasn't thought about this doctrine for a long time. I take that as a "probably not" from PeteR. I don't remember RevoltingMan or MarkC answering the question.
I believe it is possible to be a TK adherent while also holding to "grace alone, through faith alone", "justified by the imputed righteousness of Christ alone".
While I believe it possible, I'm not sure most of our TK friends do. That's what continually troubles me.

I really have the gut impression that at least Mark, Pete, and Steve probably don't hold to "grace alone, through faith alone", and that is why I refer to them as TK friends when I would love to instead call them TK brothers. (Please forgive me if I'm wrong)

 

[FollowingHim]

@steve, @Mark C and @PeteR, I can see that it would be helpful for brotherhood for each of you to clarify your position on this. I'm pretty sure from years of discussions with him that @The Revolting Man holds a standard view of salvation by grace alone through faith alone (if I'm wrong he could clarify).

 

[Bartato]

This whole TK debate is rather strange. It really seems to boil down to a few points of disagreement (which are still significant).

1. Sabbath observance (Saturday, Sunday, or Christ is our Sabbath Rest)
2. Observance of holy day feasts (for example celebrating the Passover, vs celebrating Resurrection Sunday). Maybe we can or should do both.
3. Dietary laws regarding clean and unclean foods. Are all foods now clean, or are the previously "unclean foods" still "unclean".

I think we all agree that we are still supposed to observe the vast majority of the Law (love God, serve Him only, love neighbor, don't make idols, don't add to or subtract from God's Word,. honor your parents, don't steal, covet, defile your neighbor's wife, bear false witness, etc).

At the same time, our TK friends don't really obey all the Law at any rate. They have no Aaronic priesthood, no Ark of the Covenant, no cities of refuge, etc. I don't think they have Sabbath years where they choose not to sow any crops.

Are we really debating about keeping 70% vs 80% of the Law?

 

[Mark C]

I don't think this is necessarily true, and this is something I have repeatedly tried to gain clarification on from our TK friends (to little avail).

You'd have more success if you didn't try to embed "when did you stop beating your wife?" innuendo into your "questions." The distinctions you try to embellish by such have been pointed out repeatedly.

 

[Earth_is-]

The second is the view of the Roman Catholic Church. I am persuaded that it is a very serious error.

Faith + Obedience = Justification

This is what I was trying to show from the few scriptures I chose. Salvation is a gift from God - so no man can boast. No one can fulfill the law perfectly, and lay his life down like Jesus did for the sins of many.

God isn’t looking for someone like his own Son (who’s able to perfectly fulfill the entire law), because I believe it’s impossible for men. The law showed us we were all sinners - no matter how good we think we are.

So God looks for a humbled heart that has opened his ears to his word, accepted his word and repented from their hearts; and put their faith in King Jesus as their Savior, High Priest, Master, Teacher, and God.

The righteousness of God then begins to heal the human heart through the Holy Spirit:

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

God made the human heart - God can heal the human heart. So it’s a sanctification process through the Holy Ghost. I doubt a person reborn would go back to the night clubs messing with women, or fornicating with his tinder matches. They’d even change the music they’d listen to, and start changing the way they speak (cuss words).

 

[Mark C]

I really have the gut impression that at least Mark, Pete, and Steve probably don't hold to "grace alone, through faith alone..."

Faith in Who? "Another jesus," who supposedly "did away with the Law," or the Risen Messiah, Whose very NAME means "Salvation of Yah"?

"SHOW ME your faith by your works."
We could even say, as the Real One DID, "If you love Me, keep My commandments." I find that much more satisfying, and simple, than arguing about logic that grade skool indoctrinees are taught to ignore anyway if it conflicts with their 'feelings.'

(In their attempt to justify rebellion to Him, and "pick and choose" - I contend that the Whore Church tried hard to make it "FAR too complicated." "You can't do it anyway...nobody can! - so don't even try.")
I've already objected to the RCC implication that if I don't accept their "Creed" - or, in the case of so-called "TK's" - "don't keep TORAH" as we MUST - that he/she/zhe/they are "goin' straight to Hell."

So, NO, I'm not on a witness stand, forced to answer simply "yes or no" to a misleading, doctrinaire question, arguably not QUITE consistent with Scripture-as-Written.

And here's a great example of what I mean. Exercise for the reader: Spot the deception!

Are all foods now clean, or are the previously "unclean foods" still "unclean." [?}

Some things are "meat" (like the 'meat on your bones') but they are NOT FOOD. (People, BTW, neither 'chew the cud,' nor have 'split hooves.' Simple. But kids are being conditioned otherwise, whether some believe it - yet - or not.)

And when Yahushua died and was resurrected "as the day of the Sabbath ended" at sundown, exactly as He said, neither men's bodies nor pigs' bodies were somehow changed!!!

What was NOT FOOD is STILL "NOT food"! If you don't understand the words, in spite of lousy renderings through multiple mis-translations, you just won't get it.

You will still suffer health consequences, like it or not, if you eat stuff He says is not food.

No, you won't "go to hell" for eating pig. But you just may go - wherever - a bit sooner.

Because He did NOT change that. And He said so. And I still have a real problem with people who call Him a liar, ` (Mark 7:5-9)

At the same time, our TK friends don't really obey all the Law at any rate. They have no Aaronic priesthood, no Ark of the Covenant, no cities of refuge, etc. I don't think they have Sabbath years where they choose not to sow any crops.

Fer cryin' out loud: How MANY TIMES do I have to say that? Will you finally, maybe, just read it, now that you penned it yourself? We are not IN THE LAND, either. Still in exile. For cause!
So - here it is. AGAIN.

I think we all agree that we are still supposed to observe the vast majority of the Law

Wrong, wrong, WRONG!

We follow His Instruction. EVERY BIT that we, as fallible humans, male or female -- not kings, not kohenim, not in the land -- CAN, as best we can. Period. It's really just "not too hard," EXACTLY as He said. Because He did not change so much as "one yod or tiddle" of what He Wrote, gave to us, and TAUGHT IN THE FLESH, for our BLESSING.

Because we love Him. (And, as Paul said, it's even our "rightful service.")