And could you possibly explain to me WHY a woman would ever want to be shakled to her rapist?!? -- our dear Jennifer for instance who has already shared her testimony above.
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Poly Family Interviewed
- Thread starter rejoicinghandmaid
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As I understand how this worked, 50 shekels was over 4 years worth of wages. During the time needed to save that amount of money, a man also had to eat and have a place to stay. Saving the normal 10 shekels would take a man into his 30’s. Which is why so many 30+ year old men married for the first time.
When a man is ordered to give 50 shekels, he would have to consider selling himself into slavery to get the money together. Two things then took place. First, he’s gone. The girl wouldn’t be seeing him and she would have cash to live on. Second, rights of fathers. One of the little known scriptures gave the father the right to annul his daughters marriage. (I know I’m gonna have to look that one up to defend my statement) She could get married, get the money, have the father annul the marriage and the attacker is a slave and out of the picture.
I have five daughters. If someone told me my daughter would have to live out her life with her rapist or live in sin, I’d take the sin. Since my belief is that the scriptures has loopholes in it, I’ll take the loopholes. But there is no way on Gods green earth my daughter is going to live out her life with an abuser/rapist.
I recommend a book called ‘Divorce and Remarriage, Recovering the Biblical View’ by Dr William Luck. It’s written at a dissertation level, but digs into this subject quite well.
It is probably referring to more of a statuary rape type of situation.
I ran the numbers once to translate that number into modern USD; came about to about $500. Basically, less than a months worth of wages. Although it is possible the number is inaccurate due to modern suppression of precious metals prices. I didn't do a comparison to ancient wage rates.
As the father scripture gives you the prerogative to say no to the mariage; "live out her life with her rapist or live in sin" is a false dichotomy.
As the father scripture gives you the prerogative to say no to the mariage; "live out her life with her rapist or live in sin" is a false dichotomy.
At the time of the writings of the scripture, the bride price was approx 10 months wages. Since a rapist had to pay five times the bride price, it was about 50 months wages.
It’s impossible to use US currency equivalents. Their are places today that $10 a month is an average paycheck. Maids in Saudi Arabia that take home $600 a month are considered rich. So, the time periods along with the cultural and economic rates of exchange have to be considered.
As I said previously, my daughters would not live with their rapist. Period. I cannot presume to know how you would respond if your daughter were in such a bind, but as for me? I would bring in the biblical loop holes and keep them away and protect them from trash like that. Then, do everything humanly possible to see him behind bars.
Jacob’s boys had a unique way of dealing with Dinah’s rapist. Although prior to the Mosaic laws, it was for certain she would not be continually abused.
As for sin, if my protecting my family is a sin, I will gladly take it on for their protection. However, I disagree that this type of protection is a sin.
I agree with @Jennifer in so many ways. Some of my best friends are men, (my husband being one). My bestest friend is my sister, I think it’s because we experienced a lot of the same circumstances and we don’t judge and gripe, we lift up, listen and give a reality check. I can only name a very few gems of women who really care and take another woman’s burden to the Lord and not the gossip group - or judge and criticize you for you feelings, actions and failures.
I know from recent experiences, I need to become the type of woman I want in my life....and dang it, that takes work and course correction, all.the.time, We are known by our fruits, what kind of garden do we have? Mine has a whole lot of weeding and pruning for sure!
I know from recent experiences, I need to become the type of woman I want in my life....and dang it, that takes work and course correction, all.the.time, We are known by our fruits, what kind of garden do we have? Mine has a whole lot of weeding and pruning for sure!
I did do the rate of exchange but none of this is an exact science; not enough is known about history. Even in that time, 10 months of whose wages? And where do you get this:
The scripture says fifty shekels of silver not 50 months wags or 5 times bride price. I'm not sure where you come up with that info?
The scripture says fifty shekels of silver not 50 months wags or 5 times bride price. I'm not sure where you come up with that info?
@rockfox, I want to say from a book by Dr Luck, Divorce and Remarriage, but I wouldn’t sware to it. Also, when I began studying PM, I caught that from a couple of writings. I’ve moved on to other studies but may have to revisit some studies. Similar to having studied Algebra. If I take another class, I’ll have to revisit a lot of equations, even tho certain concepts are still there.
Exodus 22:16-17
And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. [17] If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.
Pacman to the rescue!
Dear @Well loved wife, you are such a beautiful young woman to behold, both inwardly and outwardly. There's so much merit in recognizing the weeeds and where they are. Reminds me of Proverbs 31.
I just wanted to note that in the case of...
Exo 22:16-17
And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.
...she was "enticed". I think she basically agreed, even if naïvely. Her father refusing, I think, is him exercising his Numbers 30 authority over her to annul an agreement she made. If she was forced, she made no agreement, and thus her father has nothing to annul, and there is no statement that her father can refuse to give her.
Deu 22:28-29
If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
I think it's worth noting here that this would only be carried out if "they be found", I suppose by two or three witnesses (Deu 19:15). How often are there *any* witnesses to such an event? For practical purposes, I cannot expect this to be carried out more than once or twice in an aeon.
So I think this is only to be carried out if her assailant is convicted. Wasn't there something about feminists wanting a woman's word alone to be sufficient to convict her alleged assailant?
Exo 22:16-17
And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.
...she was "enticed". I think she basically agreed, even if naïvely. Her father refusing, I think, is him exercising his Numbers 30 authority over her to annul an agreement she made. If she was forced, she made no agreement, and thus her father has nothing to annul, and there is no statement that her father can refuse to give her.
Deu 22:28-29
If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
I think it's worth noting here that this would only be carried out if "they be found", I suppose by two or three witnesses (Deu 19:15). How often are there *any* witnesses to such an event? For practical purposes, I cannot expect this to be carried out more than once or twice in an aeon.
So I think this is only to be carried out if her assailant is convicted. Wasn't there something about feminists wanting a woman's word alone to be sufficient to convict her alleged assailant?
In our culture? Sure. But in a culture that values virginity and closely chaperone's their daughters? A lot more often. Especially if you consider a small rate multiplied over a large population over a long period of time.
I would humbly like to disagree with you here. I feel you are taking a too literal approach to this verse and also trying to understand it outside of it's historical context. At the time of the giving of Torah, the nations had their own sets of rules concerning this matter and usually the female was killed if raped because it was considered a disgrace on the males of her family. How barbaric is that! An Israelite woman in the case of rape was not viewed as a dishonor to her family, nor was she held responsible. Back then if a woman's virginity was taken it was very hard to marry her off. This was God's grace and provision for her in that time. Yes, according to all of Jewish history a father did not have to allow his daughter to marry her rapist. I think one should highly consider how those closest to the time of Torah interpreted this part of scripture. Also just knowing the character of God, I don't think your interpretation is the most viable one. As for a woman's word not being considered without another witness, that means most rapist would go free. I do believe there needs to be evidence and a trial, but a woman's worr should be considered. In my case I was left bleeding, my jaw out of place and his DNA on my being, therefore it was an easy case to solve. Are you saying he still should have gone free because I was the only witness or would you say his DNA and the evidence serve as a witness? Just curious. Do you have daughters?
I'm pretty sure this is incorrect. Do you have a source for that?
In evidence to the contrary...
That from one of the major culture/civilization of the time.
I don't see anything here either to support that view.
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That's the most meaningless statistic anyone has posted to this thread, to be blunt. With silver not being used as day-to-day money any more but having more value as an industrial metal in electronics, modern mining and refining techniques producing it in much greater quantities today, and fiat money, the economics driving the silver price today are just complely irrelevant to ancient Israel.
Think of it as a currency, not a metal.
Ancient currency conversions and wage rates are published in the Bible itself or readily available from secular sources. A Roman denarius was a days wages for a labourer (e.g. Matthew 20:2). At 3-4 denarii to a shekel (a denrius was 4g of silver, a shekel 11-17g depending on context), 10 shekels is 30-40 days labour (ie 5-6.5 weeks at 6 days a week). 50 shekels is 25-37 weeks labour. It's very clear that, at the time, it would have taken many months of full-time work for an average working class person to come up with 50 shekels. Assuming that much work were available, which would often not be the case in an agricultural society with seasonal labour requirements.
The fact you can buy 50 shekels of physical silver today for a relatively small price is completely irrelevant.
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I don't disagree with you, I pointed out that very weakness in the calculation myself. But neither am I certain it is wrong. IIRC I converted from silver shekel to denarius silver to gold to USD, which still has value as currency. But I no longer have the notes on that conversion so would have to redo it to defend it.
All the same, you're telling me 50 shekels is worth 25 weeks of labour; thats only 6 months, thats a lot closer to my calculation than Philip's 4 years. I don't feel super confident about anyones numbers.
According to wiki:
Those numbers are just all over the place. Thats a range of 5 months to 5 years. Way too much range to say.
US minimum wage today at $7.50... that gives a value range of $6000 - $72000.
Or the denarius...
Even if you go by comparing labor, who would work all day today for a single loaf of bread?
By this...
So 50 shekels of gold would be $500 commonly in modern USD. However Deut 22 calls for silver, so different, but golds typically more valuable as a currency. Right now thats about $7.5 per 1/2 ounce silver or 375$ for 50 shekels. So that hardly makes my estimate meaningless.
But then again that's modern silver so...?
Silver was used as currency in the 20's. The inflation adjusted price from then was about $8/oz (current USD). That puts 50 shekels at $200 in todays USD. That is worse, so that shoots down any theory about modern silver value being less due to it no longer being money. Especially since the 20's inflation adjusted price (when it was money) is half today's price.
What about in terms of commodities? Take land:
Thats a valuation of 50 shekels of silver on land that requires 6 bu of barley seed to plant or about 3 acres at broadcast planting rates. That land will produce less than $1341 in barley/year (modern USD) with modern yields (less with ancient yields) with a crop land valuation of around $6000 (ND land values, prime US barley growing land). However that value is decoupled from ag use; which is closer to $600.
The 6000 valuation matches the minimum labor rate range above as well (which was the same as FollowingHim's estimate). That's an order of magnitude greater than the gold sheckel and my initial estimate; but still not all that high.
In the end, there will be no sure answer. But some ranges are starting to show up.
All the same, you're telling me 50 shekels is worth 25 weeks of labour; thats only 6 months, thats a lot closer to my calculation than Philip's 4 years. I don't feel super confident about anyones numbers.
According to wiki:
Those numbers are just all over the place. Thats a range of 5 months to 5 years. Way too much range to say.
US minimum wage today at $7.50... that gives a value range of $6000 - $72000.
Or the denarius...
Even if you go by comparing labor, who would work all day today for a single loaf of bread?
By this...
So 50 shekels of gold would be $500 commonly in modern USD. However Deut 22 calls for silver, so different, but golds typically more valuable as a currency. Right now thats about $7.5 per 1/2 ounce silver or 375$ for 50 shekels. So that hardly makes my estimate meaningless.
But then again that's modern silver so...?
Silver was used as currency in the 20's. The inflation adjusted price from then was about $8/oz (current USD). That puts 50 shekels at $200 in todays USD. That is worse, so that shoots down any theory about modern silver value being less due to it no longer being money. Especially since the 20's inflation adjusted price (when it was money) is half today's price.
What about in terms of commodities? Take land:
Thats a valuation of 50 shekels of silver on land that requires 6 bu of barley seed to plant or about 3 acres at broadcast planting rates. That land will produce less than $1341 in barley/year (modern USD) with modern yields (less with ancient yields) with a crop land valuation of around $6000 (ND land values, prime US barley growing land). However that value is decoupled from ag use; which is closer to $600.
The 6000 valuation matches the minimum labor rate range above as well (which was the same as FollowingHim's estimate). That's an order of magnitude greater than the gold sheckel and my initial estimate; but still not all that high.
In the end, there will be no sure answer. But some ranges are starting to show up.
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Something else to keep in mind is hedging your calculations for the time period for a discussion. In above posts, New Testament calculations were used. In addition, calculations above were created using the 20’s.
In no way am I a scholar in economics, and in large part go by the studies others have done. As I am certain, your conclusions have come by studies you have done. I would think your studies have come by authors of books you have read. I conclude your trust is in the authors you read.
Another factor, as men are saving for their bride price, food, clothing and shelter still had to be considered. To raise the bride price would take time. How much of his wages would he be able to it away. If human nature was the same then as it is now, putting away 10% of his income would be possible, but taxing in the least. If only putting away money for a bride price was as easy as go make a paycheck and put it away. Unfortunately, life gets in the way of our nobelist efforts.
In no way am I a scholar in economics, and in large part go by the studies others have done. As I am certain, your conclusions have come by studies you have done. I would think your studies have come by authors of books you have read. I conclude your trust is in the authors you read.
Another factor, as men are saving for their bride price, food, clothing and shelter still had to be considered. To raise the bride price would take time. How much of his wages would he be able to it away. If human nature was the same then as it is now, putting away 10% of his income would be possible, but taxing in the least. If only putting away money for a bride price was as easy as go make a paycheck and put it away. Unfortunately, life gets in the way of our nobelist efforts.
@Jennifer, I am very sorry about what happened to you, and any distress related to my post. Please let me assure you, I had not read your earlier posts, and that no part of my post above was at all directed at you. What little I then-knew of your situation was nowhere near my thoughts when I composed that message.
The last paragraph was directed at #MeToo. It was something that occurred to me after I had written the rest of the message. Other than the comment about #MeToo, the only purpose was to add to what was said earlier regarding Exo 22:16-17.
Regarding your questions for me, I am uncertain if it is appropriate for me to comment here about any matters of jurisprudence as it relates to your situation. I'm sorry.
The last paragraph was directed at #MeToo. It was something that occurred to me after I had written the rest of the message. Other than the comment about #MeToo, the only purpose was to add to what was said earlier regarding Exo 22:16-17.
Regarding your questions for me, I am uncertain if it is appropriate for me to comment here about any matters of jurisprudence as it relates to your situation. I'm sorry.