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Polygyny and Male Attraction

Asforme&myhouse said:
Sounds like there is room for boasting
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Salvation . . . can't save my self. can't be good enough to deserve it! It is offered to whosoever will I simply must receive it. Cant be saved if I reject it. the choice is mine.
Calvinism seems to believe that God can do anything but give free-will or deal with free-will as being truly free. Yet we have to deal with other free-wills everyday. Even your dog has free-will and you cannot mak it a robot. Neither does God make us robots unless we sin away our right to free-will as I believe Pharaoh did.
 
Cap said:
You have this turned around. The only reason we have faith to believe is because we were given that faith in the first place.
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True the Spirit draws and God gives to every man the measure of faith. He also grants us a will and we can believe or not, it is our choice.
God gives us the choice and the power to choose. God is not intimidated by our free-will or our choice.
 
Free will is not as one normally thinks.

What you are saying is you have power of God's Will.

This has been discussed many times here.
 
Jim an Apostle said:
True the Spirit draws and God gives to every man the measure of faith. He also grants us a will and we can believe or not, it is our choice.
God gives us the choice and the power to choose. God is not intimidated by our free-will or our choice.
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God gives everyone a measure of faith?
 
Jim an Apostle said:
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Chosen is not here either
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Context: this is Peter's second epistle. It is written to the same people as his first epistle (2 Peter 3:1).
Who did he write his first epistle to?
To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father... . (1 Peter 1:1, 2).
Who is he referring to in 3:9?
...but is longsuffering to us-ward.
The Greek plural accusative personal pronoun used here means "us".
The word "all" is also from the Greek plural accusative indicating a reference to the same people - all of us.
In context; God is not willing that any of the "us" people should perish but that all of the "us" people should come to repentance. The "us" is referring to those to whom Peter wrote this second epistle and to Peter himself; the elect or chosen.
Shalom.
 
Jim an Apostle said:
We do not believe because we are chosen
We are chosen because we believe.
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"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us. By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. We love because he first loved us. If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother."


How does "we are chosen because we believe" fit with "we love because he first loved us"?


“What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,

‘I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.’

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: ‘I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.’ Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

One of you will say to me: ‘Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?’ But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? ‘Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’’ Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
 
I cannot get past the promises that Yah made to Moses and Israel. Multiple times.
If His will was that they were going to fail, then His promises were lies.
 
I find it interesting that right in the middle of the primary election passage, Romans 8-11, you have Romans 10:11-13. The great whosoever passage.

There’s an election of race and an election of grace and neither of them means anything without understanding that we are all “elected” or predestinated to hell because of our sin, without exception. Christ didn’t die for some, he died for all. This means that all are predestinated for hell, thus, all are candidates for election, but not all will elect to be part of the Whosoever.

Romans 11 is a great passage that makes it clear that “election” doesnt do much for you unless you abide and are fruitful, regardless of if you are elect by race or elect by grace. If you don’t abide and fruit, He’ll make you blind and deaf which will eventually result in pruning and being cast away. Our position in Him as part of the elect is totally and completely dependent upon His mercy and grace, and our submission. This is why Paul concludes the “election” section with the warning: Be not high minded, but fear. . . . Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God. On them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness. Otherwise thou also shall be cut off.

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Think about it, Judas was part of the elect. So was Nicholas.
 
Romans 14:11 It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.'"

Doesn't sound like much free will. Also says a lot in regards to universal salvation, but that makes eternal hell hard to reason with.

Will Judas be saved in the end?
 
Cap said:
Romans 14:11 It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.'"
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Well the only alternative is standing there in front of him at the judgement and telling Him that He is not real.
It is simply a statement of fact, not about being forced to do something.
 
steve said:
Well the only alternative is standing there in front of him at the judgement and telling Him that He is not real.
It is simply a statement of fact, not about being forced to do something.
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Really? This is a promise if I have ever heard one, God says, "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.'", which I take to mean that EVERY KNEE WILL BOW AND ACKNOWLEDGE GOD. So, Judas will, Hitler will, Nebuchadnezzar will, everyone will. What is hard for me to accept is that once someone says this, then it is assumed that they go straight to Hell right after saying it, if they have lived a unrepentant life before that confession. That's a cruel God.

The issue here is understanding the differences in the covenants, the old covenant is one where man is responsible for their relationship with God, the new covenant is one were God is responsible for man's relationship with God. If God doesn't save everyone, then He failed the second covenant. And understanding the purpose of the Great White Throne judgement.
 
*Calvin gets slapped across the face by lord Veritas with a fancy glove and challenged to duel.*
“Pistols at dawn.” Says lord Veritas in his manly man voice.

#clashingwithCalvin
#downwiththetulip
 
rustywest4 said:
*Calvin gets slapped across the face by lord Veritas with a fancy glove and challenged to duel.*
“Pistols at dawn.” Says lord Veritas in his manly man voice.

#clashingwithCalvin
#downwiththetulip
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Oh and by the way, I don't follow Calvin, he follows me. He just didn't know it at the time. And he sort of screws up my thought process. :)

Let's make them water pistols. I'll even let you shot first.
 
Cap said:
The issue here is understanding the differences in the covenants, the old covenant is one where man is responsible for their relationship with God, the new covenant is one were God is responsible for man's relationship with God. If God doesn't save everyone, then He failed the second covenant. And understanding the purpose of the Great White Throne judgement.
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I disagree that God is responsible or accountable for our choices.

Under the old covenant reconciliation with God was impossible outside of Christ. Under the new covenant reconciliation with God is still impossible outside of Christ.
God just made it possible with the death of Christ for reconciliation. He’s done his part. We are responsible individually for the opportunity he’s given us freely. If we choose a different master who is incapable of reconciling us when He’s made every effort at reconciliation, then God is not responsible for our choices, neither is he a cruel God for punishing rebellion.

A cruel God would be one who knew that we were all destined for destruction and did nothing to help. I don’t think anyone can say that about Him.
 
Verifyveritas76 said:
I disagree that God is responsible or accountable for our choices.

Under the old covenant reconciliation with God was impossible outside of Christ. Under the new covenant reconciliation with God is still impossible outside of Christ.
God just made it possible with the death of Christ for reconciliation. He’s done his part. We are responsible individually for the opportunity he’s given us freely. If we choose a different master who is incapable of reconciling us when He’s made every effort at reconciliation, then God is not responsible for our choices, neither is he a cruel God for punishing rebellion.

A cruel God would be one who knew that we were all destined for destruction and did nothing to help. I don’t think anyone can say that about Him.
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This is all true and from our point of view we have a choice, however from God's point of view He will eventually get you to make the right choice. No one left behind.

How is creation good, if just one person is destroyed eternally?

However, I don't buy this part, "then God is not responsible for our choices,", God's responsibility, based His New Covenant, is to save us. Call me crazy if you like. :)
 
Of course it’s a promise as well as a statement of fact. I promise that you are breathing right now.
A statement of fact that you cannot deny, but I am not in any way forcing you to do it. And you are doing it even if you didn’t want to.


As far as the dead sinners, They Are Dead. Yah’s offer is only good until your heart stops. Repentance after you are dead is a given, but your reservation for eternity has already been validated.
 
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