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Read This First

andrew

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The mission of Biblical Families is to promote a biblical understanding of marriage and family, including a biblical understanding of the defining characteristics of men and women and their roles within the family and within Christian fellowships. While our meatspace fellowship is pretty focused on topics pertinent to Christian marriage, and particularly Christian plural marriage, our cyberspace discussion tends to range over a broad variety of topics, from the sublime to the ridiculous. Most such topics are not particularly contentious, and none of them have to be. Yet from time to time we find ourselves 'putting out fires' here on the discussion board, for different reasons, none of them particularly good or necessary.

One source of contention that comes up on a regular basis is the misunderstanding and suspicion that exists between many Christians around the subject of Torah observance. Not all Christians, but many, just have a hard time understanding the idea that followers of Christ could worship and serve in such radically different ways, and beyond that, there are some on both sides of the basic issue that are adversarial and rather sharp-tongued in their denouncement of anyone 'on the other side'.

It doesn't have to be a divisive issue, but we're not going to rehearse those discussions here—there are plenty of threads on the board already covering all that ground. We want followers of Christ across the spectrum to feel welcome here, primarily to discuss "biblical family", but also to discuss other topics of interest. To that end, we are opening this thread for productive, edifying discussion of Torah requirements. From the point of view of the overall organization of the discussion forum, this is a subset of "Biblical Issues Other Than Marriage & Family", but it is a subject large enough and important enough to deserve its own heading, and over time we will probably migrate certain threads over to this forum as we find them across the board.

As a reminder, the Doctrinal Statement page of our website is reprinted here in its entirety:

Doctrinal Statement
Since our public ministry is inclusive of Christ-followers from all backgrounds (evangelical, Pentecostal, fundamental, charismatic, Messianic, mainstream denominations, nondenominational, and more) we simply state that we are in agreement with the Apostles Creed of the early church, and are happy to fellowship as brothers and sisters with those who worship the one true God, our Creator; acknowledge the deity of Christ, His death and resurrection, and His redemptive work for us on the Cross; and make an effort to walk in their lives like they are redeemed by Him. We accept the Bible as God's inspired Word and His only written revelation.

Apostles Creed
I believe in God the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth; And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord: who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; the third day he rose from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.​

If you get this, then you get Biblical Families, and you're welcome here. Enjoy the discussion!
 
...was crucified, dead, and buried; the third day he rose from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand

Man I've been sitteth-ing at my computer too long, eating New Year's cake. I gotta hit the gym next week!
 
The mission of Biblical Families is to promote a biblical understanding of marriage and family, including a biblical understanding of the defining characteristics of men and women and their roles within the family and within Christian fellowships. While our meatspace fellowship is pretty focused on topics pertinent to Christian marriage, and particularly Christian plural marriage, our cyberspace discussion tends to range over a broad variety of topics, from the sublime to the ridiculous. Most such topics are not particularly contentious, and none of them have to be. Yet from time to time we find ourselves 'putting out fires' here on the discussion board, for different reasons, none of them particularly good or necessary.

One source of contention that comes up on a regular basis is the misunderstanding and suspicion that exists between many Christians around the subject of Torah observance. Not all Christians, but many, just have a hard time understanding the idea that followers of Christ could worship and serve in such radically different ways, and beyond that, there are some on both sides of the basic issue that are adversarial and rather sharp-tongued in their denouncement of anyone 'on the other side'.

It doesn't have to be a divisive issue, but we're not going to rehearse those discussions here—there are plenty of threads on the board already covering all that ground. We want followers of Christ across the spectrum to feel welcome here, primarily to discuss "biblical family", but also to discuss other topics of interest. To that end, we are opening this thread for productive, edifying discussion of Torah requirements. From the point of view of the overall organization of the discussion forum, this is a subset of "Biblical Issues Other Than Marriage & Family", but it is a subject large enough and important enough to deserve its own heading, and over time we will probably migrate certain threads over to this forum as we find them across the board.

As a reminder, the Doctrinal Statement page of our website is reprinted here in its entirety:

Doctrinal Statement
Since our public ministry is inclusive of Christ-followers from all backgrounds (evangelical, Pentecostal, fundamental, charismatic, Messianic, mainstream denominations, nondenominational, and more) we simply state that we are in agreement with the Apostles Creed of the early church, and are happy to fellowship as brothers and sisters with those who worship the one true God, our Creator; acknowledge the deity of Christ, His death and resurrection, and His redemptive work for us on the Cross; and make an effort to walk in their lives like they are redeemed by Him. We accept the Bible as God's inspired Word and His only written revelation.

Apostles Creed
I believe in God the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth; And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord: who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; the third day he rose from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.​

If you get this, then you get Biblical Families, and you're welcome here. Enjoy the discussion!

Fully agree Andrew; this is a big pond mentality and kingdom view..Isaiah 4:1
 
can somebody expound(?) upon the word catholic in this setting?
and the significance of a lower case vs upper case c
Until someone smarter answers this, I will give my understanding.
The word in lowercase simply means universal. A certain church took ownership of it and now it is hard for people to see it as not belonging to that organization.
 
I don't think anyone who is Messianic appreciates any of creeds.

It's very "in your face" for our culture and difficult to swallow.
I've lobbied behind the scenes to get the whole thing taken down because it only causes negative feelings among torah keepers.
Maybe you can get better traction than I have if you appeal to the moderators.
Just understand sister, the Torah-keepers didn't put that up in this section; it's just something we have to tolerate it seems.
The backstory was in the past some torah keepers ended up rejecting the Messiah and trying to get others to do so (before my time here) so I think the creed was hoping to make it clear that anti-missionary activities are not cool here. I wish it just said that.

To answer your question, this outdated language uses "catholic" to mean "entire" not "Roman Catholic".
 
As @steve and @IshChayil have stated, "catholic" simply means "universal" or "entire". And "holy" means "set-apart". And "church" in this context means "assembly [of believers]". So this part is best understood as "I believe in the set-apart universal assembly of believers". In other words, I believe that the all believers in Christ, whatever their individual differences, are united in a single holy assembly of believers who are the body of Christ. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28). It's all just different wording for the same concept.

The Apostles' Creed is, and always has been, the way that Biblical Families defines Christianity. This is for very simple reasons:
  1. It avoids us getting into a big argument about what theology is correct (writing church "statements of faith" is an absolute nightmare and always alienates people). We're here to help Christians in their marriages, and want to jump straight into that rather than waste time debating definitions before we start.
  2. The Apostles Creed is the closest thing we have to a universal statement that is acceptable to the broadest possible number of Christians. It is broader than any other ancient creed (the Nicene and Athanasian creeds) - for instance, it doesn't even define the Trinity or the divinity of Christ, so is compatible with trinitarian, binitarian and unitarian views on God. If we wish to grab the least divisive yet broadly and historically accepted existing definition of Christianity, this is the most logical one to grab and use.
  3. Someone can no doubt find reason to debate it on some detail, or could argue that it should be worded differently, but refer back to point 1. This is used specifically to avoid debates, not start them.
In the same way, Andrew's introductory post above exists simply to avoid debates. Its primary purpose is to tell Gentile believers that it is NOT appropriate to walk into this section and start telling Messianic believers they're legalistic judaisers - because Messianic believers are accepted by Biblical Families also, always have been and always will be. Because their beliefs are consistent with the statement of faith of this ministry, as printed here. In the same way, it also tells Messianics that this is not a place to preach that others are going to hell if they don't follow the law. We have had this argument too frequently, from both perspectives, in the past. The entire purpose of this is to avoid such debates before they begin, by stating that both views are welcome here. And it is "in your face" enough to ensure that anyone from either side who had such intentions would notice it and get the message.

On a lighter note, this is a great look at creeds and their place in the church: "Learning that Creeds are Bad".
 
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Haven't ever met a single Messianic person who claimed folks not keeping Torah are going to hell... then again we are pretty lucky at Biblical Families attracting variety aren't we!

I've met some Hebrew roots who make that connection (just a handful folks don't get mad at me)

Andrew had agreed we could change the wording on this thing and had agreed it's a bit "in your face" to Messianics. I'd love to see it taken down or at least if it's the standard Biblical Families statement just have a pointer here to there. It kinda sets a negative tone for us Torah keepers over here like we need some special baby-sitting and I'm assuming @ginger2 is not the only one who questioned this.
I am 100% certain that ALL of our congregants form my Messianic Synagogue back home would be offended by having to agree to this creed in this format brother (even though most would in principle agree). Historic creeds and confessions are touchy for us. So if the intent is not to offend ... tear down this wall :)
Anyway, Andrew and Veritas and I discussed this when you were healing up and Andrew had a 1 liner something like "I believe fully in the bible and that we all need Jesus for salvation" or something along those effects.
He was going to follow up with one of the founders of Bib. Fam. then it just fizzled out.
That's the point when I stopped following up. Could you maybe follow up on this for us Sam as it is offensive to Messianics; I'm not sure if it is to Hebrew roots or not but I kinda think it may be.

Shalom

****edit ****
I was trying to think why this thing is so irksome to many torah-keepers and I think the heart of it may be that this is just so darn traditional, as in Gentile church traditional: in the case of Hebrew roots folks many are revolting against traditions of all sorts and wanting to just do the word as literally as possible and for Messianics we love traditions just not the churchy ones.
Hope that makes some more sense than my previous (possibly incoherent ENFP rambling :)

How about a bible verse as a creed Romans 10:9 ?
 
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I like the Apostle's Creed because it is so traditional. When people question my salvation or just wonder if I'm Christian it is very useful to be able to say that I believe in the Apostle's Creed. There's nothing in there I don't agree with and the use of the word "catholic" is jarring for protestants as much as it is for those of us who are right. I'm sorry, I couldn't resist. This is the Hebrew roots section.
 
I'm sorry but the Apostles Creed is a pretty low bar for fellowship. I would be very worried about the direction of things if it was removed.
No one is suggesting to remove it from Biblical Families, just the "read this first" here in the Messianic Jews/Hebrew Roots Gentiles section doesn't need it.

I've visited many churches over the years and several denominations and only one (Park street church in Boston) said this creed so I'm not sure why Messianics need it here.

Perfectly fine to have it wherever it already is on the site as a general statement of the site, I don't think torah keepers need an additional check beyond what everyone else goes through at sign up.
Why would it bother you if we torah keepers don't want it repeated here? I'm guessing maybe you didn't get that that's what we were chatting about.
This subsection here is for torah keepers and I have never in the past couple of decades of visiting torah keeping congregations both Messianic and Hebrew roots worldwide in various languages and lands ever heard this recited at a torah-keeping congregation / chavurah.
It's exactly what I'd do if I intentionally wanted to alienate people and not get invited back again.

I like the Apostle's Creed because it is so traditional. When people question my salvation or just wonder if I'm Christian it is very useful to be able to say that I believe in the Apostle's Creed. There's nothing in there I don't agree with and the use of the word "catholic" is jarring for protestants as much as it is for those of us who are right. I'm sorry, I couldn't resist. This is the Hebrew roots section.
Haha on the humor :p
If someone is so worried about my salvation status I just say I accepted Yeshua's atoning sacrifice for my sins and nothing I can do can top that.
Don't need a big wordy creed; reminds me of the old criticism of Christianity (which I reject):
"Christianity is about the creed, Judaism is about the deed"

Anyway, I hope we can agree creeds which are verbatim from scripture outdo anything people can come up with. Hence my suggestion for the verse from Romans. Not to mention that the vast Eastern Orthodox church never uses this creed at all so even though we have a nicely worded hand.me.down from the Roman Catholic church, the church which they split from never uses it making it hardly "Catholic" at all.

I don't see how it's edifying in any way to repeat the creed in the Messianic / H.R. section if it's already somewhere else on this site.
 
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My personal “creed” is this:

The Bible is my sole authority for faith and the practice of that faith.

I will never fully accomplish this but it is my goal.
 
Ya, I missed the distinction that you objected to it being mentioned in this post.

But then again, why the Apostles creed would alienate anyone is beyond me; whether listed here or anywhere else.
 
Just my two cents: no creed exists that is free of having unscriptural agenda. Why couldn't Christians just have the creed: the Divine Word of God, 1st, 2nd, 3rd and Always? Because most Christians want to bring in their own sacred cows, written and otherwise. The 'Apostles' Creed is one of the more benign creeds, but even it has more than one non-biblical propaganda inherent in its wording. Luther confronted the one about how there was no biblical basis for "descended into Hell" (I was glad to see that you didn't have that in here), but what remains is an untruth about being raised on the third day, which is language purposefully designed to support the (capital C) Catholic-created canard of Sunday being the new Sabbath, which was buttressed by a supposed death of Christ on (Good?) Friday. [Eugene Callaway's book, The Harmony of the Last Week (https://smile.amazon.com/gp/offer-l...0?ie=UTF8&condition=new&qid=1543047820&sr=1-1), uses Scripture and the various types of Sabbaths to explain a Wednesday afternoon to Saturday morning timeline, in opposition to the revised Friday afternoon to Sunday morning timeline.]
 
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