2 Timothy 2:15
[15] Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Because we are attempting to rightly divide the word. I think the semantics are important...
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Read This First
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2 Timothy 2:15
[15] Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Because we are attempting to rightly divide the word. I think the semantics are important...
I agree that having accurate knowledge and being able to present it correctly is very important. May I also add:
Galatians 5:22-23
22But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!
When individuals argue or hotly debated a topic the above qualities can get lost. I am not saying there isn't a time and place but I do think somethings are better left alone and the fruit of the spirit needs to take center stage.
That's all I really have to say on the subject.
Blessings and Shalom
Galatians 5:22-23
22But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!
When individuals argue or hotly debated a topic the above qualities can get lost. I am not saying there isn't a time and place but I do think somethings are better left alone and the fruit of the spirit needs to take center stage.
That's all I really have to say on the subject.
Blessings and Shalom
For torah keepers, i.e. those who espouse the views of the form "Messianic Jews/ Hebrew Roots Gentiles", there is no conflict between Law or movement of the holy spirit. Just as the psalmist who wrote psalm 119 extolling the beauty and liberty of the Law in almost every verse in that longest of bible chapters, also wrote "L-rd do not take your holy spirit from me".
The spirit is not a new thing and the Law is not passed away; they are not at odds they are in beautiful harmony.
Sorry I'm slow responding, I've been quite busy lately and haven't had the time to read/post over here.
I'm not going to make the case for the Law as I believe many of my Hebrew Roots brothers have done a much better case than I could.
Short summary for this area (Messianic Jews / Hebrew Roots Gentiles): the majority of Messianic Jews believe that only those born Jewish have to keep the Torah, even after we accept Yeshua as the Messiah.
We do however, accept non-Jews who enjoy Messianic services and want to keep the Law as well and we pretty much treat them like Jews when they've been keeping the Law long enough.
Hebrew Roots folks believe that everyone should be keeping the Torah, doesn't matter if you're born Jew or Gentile.
As such, Messianics and Hebrew Roots are natural allies since we both love the Law.
There's tons of good youtube content on this as the Hebrew Roots movement has really exploded; it's my feeling that they have dwarfed the Messianic movement since we generally are limited to our own ethnicity and those with whom we've intermarried.
Some decent reads:
Messianic Jewish Manifesto - Dr. David Stern
Post-Missionary Messianic Judaism - Rabbi Dr. Kinzer
Our Hands are Stained with Blood - Dr. Michael Brown
The first 2 are calls to a lasting Messianic Judaism. The last one is a wake up call to how badly the church has treated its Jewish members and those who werent members throughout the centuries. Read it if you want to understand
why this "read this first" post is kind of offensive.
For Hebrew Roots: HaYesod: A Discipleship series - is supposed to be good. I went to a First Fruits of Zion conference a few decades back and ended up studying up on my Greek grammar because I found it extremely boring, yet everyone I know who has
attended their stuff or read their materials says they are solid. It's my believe that the First Fruits of Zion guys were really the first cross-over group from Messianic Judaism which founded the modern Hebrew Roots movement as First Fruits believes
Gentiles should keep torah.
That should keep you busy for a while
I’m messianic and I don’t find this offensive at all.
I would add only that there is a third and very small group that see Torah as an option for the non-Israelite but not required. There is an Acts 15 exception, although even that heavily implies that Torah would still be at least taught. It's funny that many Hebrew roots types who will often vehemently reject the Jewish forms of Torah keeping are far more adamant than our Jewish brothers that everyone must keep Torah.For torah keepers, i.e. those who espouse the views of the form "Messianic Jews/ Hebrew Roots Gentiles", there is no conflict between Law or movement of the holy spirit. Just as the psalmist who wrote psalm 119 extolling the beauty and liberty of the Law in almost every verse in that longest of bible chapters, also wrote "L-rd do not take your holy spirit from me".
The spirit is not a new thing and the Law is not passed away; they are not at odds they are in beautiful harmony.
Sorry I'm slow responding, I've been quite busy lately and haven't had the time to read/post over here.
I'm not going to make the case for the Law as I believe many of my Hebrew Roots brothers have done a much better case than I could.
Short summary for this area (Messianic Jews / Hebrew Roots Gentiles): the majority of Messianic Jews believe that only those born Jewish have to keep the Torah, even after we accept Yeshua as the Messiah.
We do however, accept non-Jews who enjoy Messianic services and want to keep the Law as well and we pretty much treat them like Jews when they've been keeping the Law long enough.
Hebrew Roots folks believe that everyone should be keeping the Torah, doesn't matter if you're born Jew or Gentile.
As such, Messianics and Hebrew Roots are natural allies since we both love the Law.
There's tons of good youtube content on this as the Hebrew Roots movement has really exploded; it's my feeling that they have dwarfed the Messianic movement since we generally are limited to our own ethnicity and those with whom we've intermarried.
Some decent reads:
Messianic Jewish Manifesto - Dr. David Stern
Post-Missionary Messianic Judaism - Rabbi Dr. Kinzer
Our Hands are Stained with Blood - Dr. Michael Brown
The first 2 are calls to a lasting Messianic Judaism. The last one is a wake up call to how badly the church has treated its Jewish members and those who werent members throughout the centuries. Read it if you want to understand
why this "read this first" post is kind of offensive.
For Hebrew Roots: HaYesod: A Discipleship series - is supposed to be good. I went to a First Fruits of Zion conference a few decades back and ended up studying up on my Greek grammar because I found it extremely boring, yet everyone I know who has
attended their stuff or read their materials says they are solid. It's my believe that the First Fruits of Zion guys were really the first cross-over group from Messianic Judaism which founded the modern Hebrew Roots movement as First Fruits believes
Gentiles should keep torah.
That should keep you busy for a while
@IshChayil thanks for the pointers to get me started as well as @rustysdove11 @ZecAustin for additional input. I’m totally clueless so will take few weeks/months but will check back in. Thanks again.
Nice summary @IshChayil. If I may suggest, I think much of Michael Brown's stuff is excellent. For those of you interested in this topic, you may want to start with him. He's, for the most part, measured and reasonable. He's also easy to read. Check out some of his videos too.
Is your background the church or Judaism before becoming Messianic?
I've been encouraged to come here to the 'messianic ghetto' and contribute, as if reading His Word, as actually Written, might be acceptable here, when (as Yahushua warned, it would seem - Matthew 13:21) such seed planted elsewhere on the site might still find stony ground.
Admittedly, after "reading this first," I have to agree, I almost decided not to bother. A creed that can't even get His real Name right doesn't sound like a rallying point to those who know 'His mama never, not ONCE, ever called Him, 'jesus'; but to proclaim a 'universal' - but whoring, pagan 'church' - that changed His Sabbaths, set-apart ('holy') feasts, and renamed His sacrifice after a fake fertility goddess celebrated with bunnies and eggs, is just too much. There is a reason the Whore Church was - and STILL IS! - in exile. And it is many things, but 'universal' isn't one of them. Except under duress.
And, BTW - the word "gentile" means pagan. (The Hebrew word goyim is better rendered as 'nations,' at least once they are no longer pagan.) That's what most of us who have "come out of her" no longer are.
I can't help but think Shaul (Paul) would've bristled at being told he couldn't share a message of the True Risen Meshiach except in certain parts of town. Oh, wait...
Still, many here know I try, each and every Sabbath, and on other radio shows and podcasts in between, to teach His 'torah' (instruction, which is far more than 'law') as Written. Our Savior warned that would be offensive to many, if not most.
This week the parsha (Vaetchanan, Deuteronomy 3:23-7:11) includes not only the 'Ten Commandments' (actually, ten debarim, or words, sayings) but what He called the "most important commandment" in Scripture. (Deuteronomy 6:4+) What struck me this week was just how apropos His admonition in Matthew 24:12 was in light of how both of His 'whoring wives' - Aholah and Aholabah - have done such yeoman's work at "adding to" and "subtracting from" His Word as Written.
Those ten commandments are now trashed in 'AmeriKa-with-a-K' almost as badly as the ten prohibitions in the Bill of Rights.
And even those who never saw it before are finally having to admit that "lawlessness abounds". This is how I connect those dots, this week:
hebrewnationonline.com
Admittedly, after "reading this first," I have to agree, I almost decided not to bother. A creed that can't even get His real Name right doesn't sound like a rallying point to those who know 'His mama never, not ONCE, ever called Him, 'jesus'; but to proclaim a 'universal' - but whoring, pagan 'church' - that changed His Sabbaths, set-apart ('holy') feasts, and renamed His sacrifice after a fake fertility goddess celebrated with bunnies and eggs, is just too much. There is a reason the Whore Church was - and STILL IS! - in exile. And it is many things, but 'universal' isn't one of them. Except under duress.
And, BTW - the word "gentile" means pagan. (The Hebrew word goyim is better rendered as 'nations,' at least once they are no longer pagan.) That's what most of us who have "come out of her" no longer are.
I can't help but think Shaul (Paul) would've bristled at being told he couldn't share a message of the True Risen Meshiach except in certain parts of town. Oh, wait...
Still, many here know I try, each and every Sabbath, and on other radio shows and podcasts in between, to teach His 'torah' (instruction, which is far more than 'law') as Written. Our Savior warned that would be offensive to many, if not most.
This week the parsha (Vaetchanan, Deuteronomy 3:23-7:11) includes not only the 'Ten Commandments' (actually, ten debarim, or words, sayings) but what He called the "most important commandment" in Scripture. (Deuteronomy 6:4+) What struck me this week was just how apropos His admonition in Matthew 24:12 was in light of how both of His 'whoring wives' - Aholah and Aholabah - have done such yeoman's work at "adding to" and "subtracting from" His Word as Written.
Those ten commandments are now trashed in 'AmeriKa-with-a-K' almost as badly as the ten prohibitions in the Bill of Rights.
And even those who never saw it before are finally having to admit that "lawlessness abounds". This is how I connect those dots, this week:
Mark Call – Parsha “Vaetchanan” teaching from Shabbat Shalom Mesa
Join Mark Call of Shabbat Shalom Mesa fellowship for a two-part study of parsha “Vaetchanan,” (Deuteronomy 3:23 – 7:11) and which includes not only the ‘reprise’ of th…
hebrewnationonline.com
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What is Semantics? Origin of Word 'Semantics' - Literary English
The word semantics (noun) and semantic (adjective) are derived from Greek word sēmantikos (which means significant).
literaryenglish.com
The Word semantics (noun) and semantic (adjective) are derived from Greek word sēmantikos (which means significant).
Word studies and semantics are vital to scripture study, as you cannot understand what was written without understanding what the word meant to the one who used it.
Gentile (/ˈdʒɛnˌtaɪl/) is a word that usually means "someone who is not a Jew".[1] Other groups that claim Israelite heritage, notably Mormons, sometimes use the term gentile to describe outsiders.[2][3] More rarely, the term is generally used as a synonym for heathen or pagan.[3] In some translations of the Quran, gentile is used to translate an Arabic word that refers to non-Jews and/or people not versed in or not able to read scripture.[4]
The English word gentile derives from the Latin word gentilis, meaning "of or belonging to the same people or nation" (from Latin gēns 'clan, tribe, people, family'). Archaic and specialist uses of the word gentile in English (particularly in linguists) still carry this meaning of "relating to a people or nation."[3]
The development of the word to principally mean "non-Jew" in English is entwined with the history of Bible translations from Hebrew and Greek into Latin and English. Its meaning has also been shaped by Rabbinical Jewish thought and Christian theology[5] which, from the 1st century, have often set a binary distinction between "Jew" and "non-Jew."
I believe that the second paragraph above was the intended meaning of those who translated the scripture and used Gentiles in place of the Greek Ethnos. Rather then identifying those in the nations coming to faith as strangers unrelated to those called Jews, they were in fact RECOGNIZING THEM as the Lost sheep of the House of Israel.
Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Romans 9:23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Verse 25 and 26 there are quoting Hosea.
Paul said there that these Gentiles were fulfilling prophesies to and about Israel.
But this is no surprise. Jacob/Israel prophesied that Ephraim's seed would become a multitude of Goy. The word goy can not nean non-Israelite as an exclusive meaning. Context matters! The equivalent of Goy in Greek was Ethnos, and both of those words were translated Gentiles in some places.
You cannot go from Goy, which was used in the most positive sense possible speaking of Righteous Israel, translate that to Ethnos, translate that to Gentiles....and now just say it means Pagans.
That is how the meaning gets lost in translation.
Now a word that originally recognized the Gentiles as Israeltes, is believed by most Christians to mean the opposite.
Ironic eh?
Which is why I contend the focus should be on the ORIGINAL word used in Scripture. (In Hebrew, again, generally "goyim".)
Sometimes, it's rendered as "nations". Sometimes 'gentiles' (and sometimes that's actually not too bad, 'cause there is a pagan connotation; other times it's misleading.) But the key is to confirm - IN CONTEXT - what the original word is.
PS> SOMETIMES, I've observed that when an orthodox Jew uses either the term "goy" (singular) or "gentile" - they really do mean gentile. And pagan, too. Sometimes that's even correct.
Honestly Jolene, it has been 3 years ago and short of going back and reading every single reply I am unsure what I was specifically replying to. I may have misunderstood the meaning of Semantics... I posted the definition I found... This is what I was going by.From the link.What is Semantics? Origin of Word 'Semantics' - Literary English
The word semantics (noun) and semantic (adjective) are derived from Greek word sēmantikos (which means significant).
The Word semantics (noun) and semantic (adjective) are derived from Greek word sēmantikos (which means significant).
Word studies and semantics are vital to scripture study, as you cannot understand what was written without understanding what the word meant to the one who used it.
Gentile (/ˈdʒɛnˌtaɪl/) is a word that usually means "someone who is not a Jew".[1] Other groups that claim Israelite heritage, notably Mormons, sometimes use the term gentile to describe outsiders.[2][3] More rarely, the term is generally used as a synonym for heathen or pagan.[3] In some translations of the Quran, gentile is used to translate an Arabic word that refers to non-Jews and/or people not versed in or not able to read scripture.[4]
The English word gentile derives from the Latin word gentilis, meaning "of or belonging to the same people or nation" (from Latin gēns 'clan, tribe, people, family'). Archaic and specialist uses of the word gentile in English (particularly in linguists) still carry this meaning of "relating to a people or nation."[3]
The development of the word to principally mean "non-Jew" in English is entwined with the history of Bible translations from Hebrew and Greek into Latin and English. Its meaning has also been shaped by Rabbinical Jewish thought and Christian theology[5] which, from the 1st century, have often set a binary distinction between "Jew" and "non-Jew."
I believe that the second paragraph above was the intended meaning of those who translated the scripture and used Gentiles in place of the Greek Ethnos. Rather then identifying those in the nations coming to faith as strangers unrelated to those called Jews, they were in fact RECOGNIZING THEM as the Lost sheep of the House of Israel.
Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Romans 9:23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Verse 25 and 26 there are quoting Hosea.
Paul said there that these Gentiles were fulfilling prophesies to and about Israel.
But this is no surprise. Jacob/Israel prophesied that Ephraim's seed would become a multitude of Goy. The word goy can not nean non-Israelite as an exclusive meaning. Context matters! The equivalent of Goy in Greek was Ethnos, and both of those words were translated Gentiles in some places.
You cannot go from Goy, which was used in the most positive sense possible speaking of Righteous Israel, translate that to Ethnos, translate that to Gentiles....and now just say it means Pagans.
That is how the meaning gets lost in translation.
Now a word that originally recognized the Gentiles as Israeltes, is believed by most Christians to mean the opposite.
Ironic eh?
se·man·tics
/səˈman(t)iks/
the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning. There are a number of branches and subbranches of semantics, including formal semantics, which studies the logical aspects of meaning, such as sense, reference, implication, and logical form, lexical semantics, which studies word meanings and word relations, and conceptual semantics, which studies the cognitive structure of meaning.
the meaning of a word, phrase, sentence, or text.
plural noun: semantics
"such quibbling over semantics may seem petty stuff.
I do agree that the meaning of words is absolutely important. In the past three years since I wrote that I have come to a greater understanding of just that. I however my original position on the matter at least what I read in my reply remains.
We can get caught up in the fine tuning of the words and each person will believe their understanding is correct. Or we can agree that we don't know everything, love eachother and move on in grace. There are very few things I will engage in a full on argument over. It just isn't my thing. For what it's worth I am Torah pursuant. I have learned that in the original Hebrew scriptures there are words that don't equate to the word and meaning in English. Therefore YES, I AGREE THE MEANING IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND.
I really appreciate this! I really don't like conflict as much as I like to hear the reasons someone has for holding a particular view.
I would use Torah affirming describing our position. There is really no other standard of morality.
This was my whole point. I didn't know the meaning of the word semantics until I looked it up a few years ago. I thought it best to know the definition before using it. The importance in scripture study was readily apparent.
I didn't mean to at pick a disagreement with you over an old post, I just pulled some quotes as I read it over, including yours.
No worries at all, I have grown over the past few .... 4.5 years that I have been on BibFam. In part because of things I have read but mostly because I love Adonai and seek His will in my life. I don't know it all, none of us do. But if we walk in grace and at least for myself attempt to leave the fragrance of the Holy One where ever I go. Well, then He will hopefully be experienced by those who seek Him.I really appreciate this! I really don't like conflict as much as I like to hear the reasons someone has for holding a particular view.
I would use Torah affirming describing our position. There is really no other standard of morality.
This was my whole point. I didn't know the meaning of the word semantics until I looked it up a few years ago. I thought it best to know the definition before using it. The importance in scripture study was readily apparent.
I didn't mean to at pick a disagreement with you over an old post, I just pulled some quotes as I read it over, including yours.
I love this. Very similar to a line a respected teacher I know uses.... '...BE the fragrance of Messiah...'