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Read This First

I have moved the discussion on the timing of the crucifixion and resurrection to its own thread here.

I think this subsequent discussion perfectly illustrates why Biblical Families has just chosen to run with the Apostles Creed and focus on ministry rather than debating what the statement of faith should be! It's very obvious that if we were to discuss this in earnest, it would take an enormous amount of time and emotional energy. I completely understand why various posters say we should define our faith solely from scripture - but we may all interpret scripture differently. To do this, we'd have to decide which scriptures to use, and how to present them, and would get into long debates over what they really meant... It's just not worth our time.
FollowingHim said:
Someone can no doubt find reason to debate it on some detail, or could argue that it should be worded differently, but refer back to point 1. This is used specifically to avoid debates, not start them.
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Just as I predicted, various small details of the wording have been questioned. Firstly whether "catholic" is an accurate word to use, now whether "the third day he rose from the dead" is precisely accurate wording... But the fact such objections are so minor, and only really about wording choices, just goes to prove the original point - the Apostles Creed is a summary of the relevant scripture, it's basically about right, and nobody really has any strong objections to it.

Regarding the Creed's wording regarding the resurrection day, if the crucifixion were on a Wednesday and the resurrection on Saturday, then the resurrection was on "the third day following the crucifixion" (Thursday being the first day following), so the wording doesn't contradict this and can still be used to describe it. What the days actually were is a fascinating topic and worthy of serious discussion (feel free to do so here). But at the most basic level the creed's wording can be read as consistent with most views on this matter, and does not contradict scripture.

So the creed is sufficient, and we can just move on to more important matters.

@IshChayil, regarding whether the creed should or should not be repeated in this thread, that's up to @andrew as it's his post. Various opinions on the matter have now been stated, and he has seen them, he can decide whether or not to edit his post, I don't see any need for us to discuss it further.
 
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ב"ה
FollowingHim said:
So the creed is sufficient, and we can just move on to more important matters.
@IshChayil, regarding whether the creed should or should not be repeated in this thread, that's up to @andrew as it's his post. Various opinions on the matter have now been stated, and he has seen them, he can decide whether or not to edit his post, I don't see any need for us to discuss it further.
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Brother, what I'm trying to say is that the creed is not useful here in the Messianic section; in the Messianic section I feel this is an important matter; for me, every time I come to the Messianic / Hebrew roots forum if I notice that "read me first" it irks me thinking of how it'll drive away some and all the Messianics I've been close to over the years I know would be irked. The only issue is not about wording, it's about tradition namely this is someone else's being imposed on us and there is along history of that... hence the irking.
Does that make sense?

The cross-posting is redundant anyway and does not does not serve the goal of unity here.

As I said @andrew agreed we don't need it and that it's "a bit in your face". Since you are now the Admin and I have not gotten traction on this, for whatever reason (I'm assuming he's mega busy) it hasn't gotten done, would you please follow up with Andrew next time you communicate with him for the permission to nuke that post or replace it with a bible verse. since he seems quite busy now?

I appreciate your careful handling of this Sam and attempts to be fair (the snarky one-sided video in favor of extra-biblical creeds not-withstanding we all are entitled our opinions) :)
Thank you

**edit ***
As I wrote before, if it's just supposed to be a reminder of the creed and bib families doctrinal statement, how about just a link to those places then?
Or the verse from Romans I mentioned which handily deals with any Law vs. Blood salvation questions. thanks
 
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rockfox said:
Ya, I missed the distinction that you objected to it being mentioned in this post.
But then again, why the Apostles creed would alienate anyone is beyond me; whether listed here or anywhere else.
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Read what we wrote brother then it will no longer be beyond you...
 
IshChayil said:
How about a bible verse as a creed Romans 10:9 ?
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Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Makes me wonder why there is even a separate category here, if the verse above states plainly what is needed to be saved. Why not a category for Mormons, or Catholics, or any of the other divisions of Christ, sorry Messiah.

Messianic Jews (CHOSEN)/Hebrew Roots Gentiles (LESS CHOSEN), and your day to day Christian Gentiles (LOSERS), is kinda "a bit in your face" to me.

Hope I get the @ZecAustin award. :cool:

Seriously, why is there even a separate category, aren't we all CHRISTIAN brothers trying to participate in the idea of biblical families as a whole? Aren't there other forums that discuss these topics?

Maybe a better solution is to take the categories out and each person put their creed, or METHOD OF WORSHIP in their individual profile.
 
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@Cap, categories exist to organise types of conversation. This is a place to discuss Torah related matters, if someone's browsing the forum and wants to find those discussions they can look here, if they want to find something else they could look elsewhere. We could eliminate all forum categories and have a single gigantic mess, or we could organise things. Organisation is not discrimination. If I give my child their own bedroom I'm not discriminating against them and confining them to that room, I'm blessing them with an organised space for certain activities so they don't have to sleep in the lounge.

Just so you know, @IshChayil and I are not really arguing, we're two brothers both working on achieving unity between all believers on the forum, and attacking this issue from two different angles simultaneously. He'd like to remove or reduce reference to a creed to avoid the risk of offence, while I'd like to ensure people take no offence to it even if it is mentioned. We're trying to achieve the same thing, and our approaches, although different, are not fundamentally in conflict. We're a body with many different members, all doing different things but working towards the same goal.

And because we are a diverse body who wish to discuss many different things, a bit of organisation is very helpful.
 
@Cap
also there were some historic issues in the past where Torah keepers and those who don't feel the need to keep torah due to grace interpretations were getting a little at each others' throats. Being that over half the site's users are Torah Keepers (I've been told), this haven was made for us to discuss Torah, as long as we didn't make any claims here of a superior theology to non-torah keepers.
This forum is a place where we can discuss torah without having someone judge us as weaker brothers/sisters, and for us to not condemn brothers and sisters who see it differently in the other areas.

I just want to take down the "not welcome" sign that is the "read this first" to our haven; I know it wasn't intended that way, but I also know some surely see it that way as the creed is just a tradition but one that's not ours and not half of Christians' worldwide...

peace
 
IshChayil said:
...as long as we didn't make any claims here of a superior theology to non-torah keepers...
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This is the environment I am use to when it comes to this matter and I thank you very much for acknowledging it, even though I am sure it is not directly from you.

I welcome the opportunity to discuss Torah/Law/Old Testament things. And what better way than to learn from those who spend their days trying to understand it. From my point of view, to understand Grace, one must understand the Law to realize how valuable the Gift God gave to us all.

I am all for organization, hope ya'll work it out.
 
Cap said:
This is the environment I am use to when it comes to this matter and I thank you very much for acknowledging it, even though I am sure it is not directly from you.

I welcome the opportunity to discuss Torah/Law/Old Testament things. And what better way than to learn from those who spend their days trying to understand it. From my point of view, to understand Grace, one must understand the Law to realize how valuable the Gift God gave to us all.

I am all for organization, hope ya'll work it out.
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Regarding grace vs Law there is not an eternal split between the two as illustrated by the lovely Proverbs detailing the "eshet-chayil" (woman of valor),
"תורת חסד על לשונה" (the Torah of grace is on her tongue). Lovely when we get to the place where we see the Law as grace, a beautiful expression of Love... and not at odds with it (grace).
 
IshChayil said:
Regarding grace vs Law there is not an eternal split between the two as illustrated by the lovely Proverbs detailing the "eshet-chayil" (woman of valor),
"תורת חסד על לשונה" (the Torah of grace is on her tongue). Lovely when we get to the place where we see the Law as grace, a beautiful expression of Love... and not at odds with it (grace).
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Yes I agree, when God's eternal Law is truly understood, the expression of Love from our Creator will be everything and all things. Order out of Chaos.
 
IshChayil said:
Regarding grace vs Law there is not an eternal split between the two as illustrated by the lovely Proverbs detailing the "eshet-chayil" (woman of valor),
"תורת חסד על לשונה" (the Torah of grace is on her tongue). Lovely when we get to the place where we see the Law as grace, a beautiful expression of Love... and not at odds with it (grace).
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The Torah has been a great expression of grace to me as I've started adopting it. I was never comfortable in the Protestant attitude of "It's all about a relationship, brother! You just have to love him more each day!" That's bullshit and it doesn't work. I tried it.
 
ZecAustin said:
. I was never comfortable in the Protestant attitude of "It's all about a relationship, brother! You just have to love him more each day!" That's bullshit and it doesn't work. I tried it.
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It's pretty obvious the way you interact here that this is true for you.
 
Great conversation.

I see both sides here.

"Why would a creed bother you? It's just a summary. We live in a society constantly offended by words and deeds."

On the other hand,

"Creeds like this have been used to segregate and make some superior, and others inferior. It's loaded with historical implications."

My first intuition is to say, "Just get over it."

But when a reasonable alternative like a Bible verse(s) or links is offered, I would say to err on the side of least offense and correct the issue.

It's not my post, and I'm not an admin, so just my 2 pennies.
 
@IshChayil - I’m sorry for my ignorance here but I think you’re saying that it might be good for us to follow Old Testament/Torah law. If I’m getting that right, can you provide link to article showing rough outline of the thought process & verses for that so I can be less ignorant? Thanks! —JAG
 
JustAGuy said:
@IshChayil - I’m sorry for my ignorance here but I think you’re saying that it might be good for us to follow Old Testament/Torah law. If I’m getting that right, can you provide link to article showing rough outline of the thought process & verses for that so I can be less ignorant? Thanks! —JAG
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A neat little book on the subject can be found on Amazon:

Messianic Treatise
 
se·man·tics
/səˈman(t)iks/
noun
  1. the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning. There are a number of branches and subbranches of semantics, including formal semantics, which studies the logical aspects of meaning, such as sense, reference, implication, and logical form, lexical semantics, which studies word meanings and word relations, and conceptual semantics, which studies the cognitive structure of meaning
I simply mean sometimes individuals get caught up in details that are not so important. @FollowingHim the apostles creed is fine as a statement of faith. It is a broad spectrum and good for fellow believers in Christ. The fine details are great but open forums aren't always the best place for them.
 
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