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Support Second wife left… asking me to be alone in her « time »

I'm sorry. I thought I was just answering a question. I am still trying to learn how to use this site. Didn't realize I was doing anything wrong. Again, I apologize.
No worries. You certainly began by answering a question, but it was starting to veer in a different direction, and I was nipping it in the bud before that happened. Just to explain where I was coming from, the debate about when marriage begins / what is marriage, between those who say sex = marriage and those who say marriage is a covenant, is an oft-repeated argument here which inevitably runs into many pages of the same people saying the same things over again and never agreeing. If you read old threads you'll soon come across much about it (use the search button, top right, if you are interested). I did not want this thread flooded with debate in this way, as many previous threads have been done, so asked to keep focussed on the original topic.
 
No worries. You certainly began by answering a question, but it was starting to veer in a different direction, and I was nipping it in the bud before that happened. Just to explain where I was coming from, the debate about when marriage begins / what is marriage, between those who say sex = marriage and those who say marriage is a covenant, is an oft-repeated argument here which inevitably runs into many pages of the same people saying the same things over again and never agreeing. If you read old threads you'll soon come across much about it (use the search button, top right, if you are interested). I did not want this thread flooded with debate in this way, as many previous threads have been done, so asked to keep focussed on the original topic.
Oh - O.K., THANX
 
Rahab was a harlot, Ruth was a widow. Widows are free to remarry. Harlots are free to marry. What is important is that anyone - man, woman or child repent of their sins in order to be acceptable to God. We are rarely told whether this transition takes place. There was nothing whatever wrong with Rahab being in David's lineage, or of Ruth's. Not really sure what that has to do with the argument.
No argument. There are those who believe sex equals marriage and Rahab had been having sex. Salmon didn't sin in taking Rahab as his wife.
 
This is why I believe it’s very important for a man to vet a woman’s past and think long and hard about marrying a woman with a promiscuous past.

She may very well be married. Did she make a marriage like promise to other men? Even unintentionally? Most women would say something like I’m yours forever, or I commit to you forever, even if they did not consider it to be a marriage commitment.

Are you prepared to have her get a written divorce from her “ex” to cover yourself so you’re not committing adultery?

Is the promiscuous behavior recent? It would be advised to stay away from her. Did it happen before or after her accepting Christ? This is an important factor. If it happened after becoming saved, why didn’t her behavior change? Is she truly repentant of this wickedness, or is it just something that she casually did in her past, with no real thought of the consequences of her actions?

These things must be considered by a man prior to rushing a woman in, unless you want problems.

She can be forgiven of her sin and be wife material. She may make a great wife. A man should consider these things before offering marriage.
Ok sooo. I’ve read trough and trough.

To answer some questions AND get appropriate answers, I can trust in you all (me included) to comment in the best interest of others.

So let’s stake some of my understandings, and please consider them in your answers:

- Yes I believe that one flesh (sex) is marriage, my sw believes it too. (Genesis 29:25-28)
- I do not consider that it is exclusively vaginal penetrative sex because it would mean people can have oral, whatever without being engaged which is aberrant. I consider Genesis 2:25 as a key point. Being naked and intimate.
- I consider fornication to be all illegal unions: incest, bestiality, male homosexuality, menses sex, prostitution. (Lev 18:6-23)
- I consider adultery to be a women in covenant or bethroted being intimate with another man than hers (Proverbs 30:20) or, a man repudiating his wive that didn’t commit fornication (Matt 5:32, Malachy 2:14-16)
- I consider that having a virgin or divorcee is legal to have as a wife. (Lev 21:7-14, Deut 24:1-4)

So now for the other facts.

- she had other men in her life before coming to Christ with which she was intimate. (As myself had before too). Then she was with her ex, they exchanged some vows I think, then she left 4 years later, she repented, got baptized, died to herself, and we attached ourselves to one another, gotten intimate, but still is a virgin.
- then all this happened, she returned to her ex place out in her point of view by necessity (bad choice in my own opinion).

Which begs the question.
- Was she in adultery and I too being together? I don’t think so. It is true that her ex didn’t repudiate her. She parted. But then, was baptized.

Other facts:

- I believe she will be an adulterer if she gets intimate with any other man unless I repudiate her, but in my view, the only motive for doing that is fornication, so I am seeking reconciliation instead.

- We did not marry « legally » it’s forbidden in our country.

- I consider myself married even if she is a virgin still. (I am at re-examining that part honestly)

So it’s pretty complex.

I think a wive can part from her husband (1 Cor 7:10-11) but need to stay alone.
 
she had other men in her life before coming to Christ with which she was intimate. (As myself had before too). Then she was with her ex, they exchanged some vows I think, then she left 4 years later, she repented, got baptized, died to herself, and we attached ourselves to one another, gotten intimate, but still is a virgin.
I have no idea what you're talking about here. She has been intimate with multiple men, including one she was with for 4 years, then yourself - but somehow is still a "virgin"? What do you mean by "virgin"?

I am going to run with the assumption that by "gotten intimate" you mean that you have done something that you would, in your broad definition above ("being naked and intimate"), class as sex, which is why you refer to her as your wife.
Was she in adultery and I too being together? I don’t think so. It is true that her ex didn’t repudiate her. She parted. But then, was baptized.
I think you were in grave error having this relationship in the first place. When we come to Christ He forgives us for the sins in our past. However, baptism is not divorce. She already had a man, who she had been with for four years, and he did not want her to leave him. He fully believed she was his, and had a verbal commitment of some sort from her. She was married. And this was not a sin. There is nothing wrong with being married. So there was nothing to forgive her for, and her baptism makes no difference. She was married before her baptism and was still married afterwards.

In fact, the Bible explicitly instructs a woman with an unbelieving husband to NOT leave him, but stay with him, in the hope that he may be won to Christ through her Godly example. Given that we are also advised not to marry unbelievers, the only reason a woman would have an unbelieving husband is if they both married as unbelievers, then she was baptised into Christ. That explicitly shows that her baptism does not cancel the marriage - rather, she is instructed to remain married to him.

You, much as you do not want to believe it because it's obviously very wrong, are an adulterer.

Now, had some years passed between her previous relationships and yours, and the men she had been with prior to becoming a Christian no longer had any contact with her, then I would agree with you. No man would be claiming her, and she would be washed clean from the past in the blood of the Lamb.

But when a man IS claiming her, then it is sin to take her from him.

What you have fallen for is a common temptation that Satan uses to bring down many good Christian men - "white knighting". Satan whispers to us things like "he's a terrible man, you'd be far better for her, you need to rescue her from him". In this way he has snared many pastors into sin, as a pastor is particularly vulnerable since he is often in a position of counselling people. It happens in monogamous settings quite frequently - some time ago I was actually counselling a man who claimed his wife had committed adultery with a pastor of a well-known megachurch. But it is even more effective a temptation for men who believe in polygamy, as they are obviously always available so able to be tempted by this at any time. The early Mormon church has many examples of this in the various "marriages" of Joseph Smith and other early church leaders to the wives of other men. And I can think of an example in people I know personally.

Consider again what she shared herself about how this relationship began:
A few months ago, being deeply unhappy in my earthly and spiritual life, as well as in my relationship with a man, I asked God if God still loved me. I was in a relationship for almost 4 years. Me, wanting to return to Christ, to his commandments and his laws and the other wanting to live as he saw fit. This created many conflicts, which led to many sins.

I didn't think my life was about to change. A brother, met 4 years previously - ChoosingGod had offered to live with him, among his family for a while in order to find rest and regain my relationship with Christ.

After the visit of the Holy Spirit, I made an act of repentance, a fast and put my life back in order before leaving for him.
I had to make a very difficult choice; leave my house, my animals, my “spouse”.
...
In the meantime, I was baptized by ChoosingGod on October 24, 2023.
I continued to text my
ex 《spouse》, having become a new creature through the waters of baptism, I had chosen not to remarry this person.
I was waiting for a response from God, so that he would reveal to me the state of his heart before starting a new relationship with him. (I won't explain all the details of this relationship) all I can say is that God revealed his heart to me quickly and I understood that he was not the man for me.

And so, there followed a lot of angry messages from him, he had become mean following my decision. Basically, I was supposed to stay at ChoosingGod for 1 to 2 months.
...
Some time has passed since the end of October. I've been living at @ChoosingGod for 6 months already. At the end of November we confess our feelings towards each other. At the beginning of December, his wife was informed. At the end of December his children were put into perfume. Since then, things have evolved, but not always positively. There were several clashes between me and his wife and a little with his children.
She was married - she even calls him her spouse. You suggested that she leave her husband and come to live with you - temporarily, as a holiday. While at your home you personally baptised her, you taught her that that meant she was no longer married and could choose to remarry him or not, you then persuaded her to marry yourself instead. This angered her husband because he felt deceived and betrayed.

You enticed a married woman away from her husband, and committed adultery with her. But you clothed your behaviour in enough religious language that you could persuade yourself that it was not adultery, and was actually marriage.

It has fallen apart because it was sinful. Whether or not she realises it, she is now actually doing what God would have her do - repenting from her sin by going back to her husband and reconciling with him.

Do not stand in God's way. Stop fooling yourself that you are in the right. You have made a grave error. Let her repent from her sin, let her go back to her husband, and pray that she retains her faith in God through this disaster. While you confess your sin and beg God for forgiveness.
 
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I appreciate that you are a victim here too to some degree @ChoosingGod, in that Satan tricked you into honestly believing that God wanted you to take this woman as your wife, and that baptism would make her available for you to do so. You should have been able to see through his lies, and realised that this could not be the voice of God. But nobody is perfect, we can all be deceived by the devil. I can appreciate your perspective in this and the immense emotional difficulty that this puts you under.

Sometimes rebuke is necessary, as per 2 Timothy 4:2. I know it will hurt to hear what I wrote above. Yet "Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful. (Proverbs 27:6)". Satan's whispers that you are in the right are the "kisses of an enemy". Today it is necessary to accept loving rebuke.

I apologise that I did not read your story properly earlier, so failed to issue this rebuke at a time when you may have been able to reverse course while less damage had been done.
 
but I do not think at my age, that God will supply another, and virgin that is, aIso…
This idea that repentance equals virginity isn’t Biblical.
It seems that quite a few people accept it, but it’s just wrong and is a gateway to sin.
 
This thread has been an interesting lesson in the viewers reacting to bits and pieces of the story without knowing the real story.
We flew Assumption Airlines based on the details that we were given and gave advice that shouldn’t have been given.

A cautionary tale, for sure.
The standard should be to get both sides of the story before making judgments, but we are not afforded that opportunity when someone comes here with their problem.
 
We are told that in baptism, we are dead.
And we are linked to any other person in mariage unless they die. Unless that is truth, then we are all adulterers because if we take a woman that already had sex, that man is responsible for her.

In her text, the word translated « spouse » is in fact « conjoint » or legally speaking someone we live with, weither married of not. The use of quote in her text denotes that she does believe he was not her husband.

I clearly understand your rebuke, and thank you for it. I cannot help but think that God lead me this way trough many prayers and answers. I know for a fact He would not direct me in repetition, to take her as my wife if it was adultery. Being myself unsure about if that was the right thing to do (taking her) I asked God several times if it was ok and got specific and clear answers.

When I say she is a virgin, is that she never had a man to « know » her, no one went into her. That is what I meant.

I will carefully pray and think about what you wrote. I never coveted this woman while she was with him, God is witness. I tried to make her reconcile with him numerous times, to no avail. She left.

I understand that it is highly controversial in itself.
 
When I say she is a virgin, is that she never had a man to « know » her, no one went into her.
Do I understand you correctly in that she lived with a man for four years without vaginal penetration but yet happily and willingly had sex with you?
And you referred to him as her ex?
I’m trying to make sense out of this.
 
And it’s even more complicated, because the ex in question had a wife and two children and they separated. (I don’t know the terms)
Even her was committed at some point and left those men. So she was adulterer I think, up to her baptism.

I will post another thread for this specific question. Thank you all.
 
Do I understand you correctly in that she lived with a man for four years without vaginal penetration but yet happily and willingly had sex with you?
And you referred to him as her ex?
I’m trying to make sense out of this.
Yes to all that.
 
So she was adulterer I think, up to her baptism.
Please make this make sense in light of the claim that she hadn’t had vaginal sex.
 
Please make this make sense in light of the claim that she hadn’t had vaginal sex.

Simply because it cannot be exclusively penetrative vaginal sex. Oral sex, hands, any other sexual activity is intimate sexual acts that engage one another.

Please see my post above. (4th comment of the fourth page)
 
What leads you to believe that she wasn’t going that far with him?
 
What leads you to believe that she wasn’t going that far with him?
I just know it because in intimacy, she had great difficulties, and well, I’ve been there with her physically, and I could feel it, both physically and psychologically. She also went with me for some testing and she declared it to the nurses so and I trust her on that. Furthermore the «ex » in question testified that it was true in his part too.
 
You are basically proving out Samuel’s definition of the situation.
 
It is evident from your statements that they were attempting to be married
 
You’re being naive if you don’t believe she was naked with another man, whether that be vaginal, anal, oral, or use of hands.
 
You’re being naive if you don’t believe she was naked with another man, whether that be vaginal, anal, oral, or use of hands.
I am not saying this. She was naked with other men.
That is the whole point.
But after her conversion, she was exclusive to me.
 
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