Meat Sexual Duties & Children

[Verifyveritas76]

I NEVER said ANYTHING about putting away the first wife!

The verse isn’t talking about divorce. Its talking about putting away. In this putting away context the man is still typically providing everything but sex, usually because of adultery, though it could also be because she requested a break in sexual relations (though that was unusual).

When a man is taking another (attractive) wife to have someone he can enjoy sex with, the usual consequence is a de facto “putting away” of his first (unattractive) wife. You can be married in name only, but if she hasn’t done something to break covenant (like sexual adultery) and you are depriving her of her marital rights, then you have dealt treacherously with the wife of your youth.

You may have meant your remarks differently, but this is what I understood you were saying.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

I am sorry but I am going to have to get really condescending to you on this one, and I'm not trying to, but you are WAAAYYY off base on I Cor 7:2. It is the same mistake our anti-poly friends make when approaching verse 2. The following links should help:
From greekbible.com I Cor 7:1: Περὶ δὲ ὧν ἐγράψατε, καλὸν ἀνθρώπῳ γυναικὸς μὴ ἅπτεσθαι:
https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/7-1.htm
https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/greek/680.html

It is good not to be fastened to a woman. Many translations use the lesser form of the word ἅπτεσθαι, to mean "not to touch" a woman, but the more accurate translation, which best fits the context, is "to not marry".

I’m gonna say that knowing the culture and customs, this interpretation is way off base. I was talking with a Orthodox Jewish lady the other day and she remarked that even mothers and fathers don’t touch their children of the opposite sex. Mothers cant touch their sons after they are 3 and older. Fathers don’t touch their daughters even to give hugs (at least in their group). Men and women who aren’t theirs do not touch, ever! Even to shake hands! That’s a huge taboo. It has nothing to do with being fastened to a woman, but touching a woman thats not yours.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

The verse isn’t talking about divorce. Its talking about putting away. In this putting away context the man is still typically providing everything but sex, usually because of adultery, though it could also be because she requested a break in sexual relations (though that was unusual).

When a man is taking another (attractive) wife to have someone he can enjoy sex with, the usual consequence is a de facto “putting away” of his first (unattractive) wife. You can be married in name only, but if she hasn’t done something to break covenant (like sexual adultery) and you are depriving her of her marital rights, then you have dealt treacherously with the wife of your youth.

You may have meant your remarks differently, but this is what I understood you were saying.

I most certainly did not mean for my remarks to be interpreted that way at all! I was responding to this notion that a man should not have any standards for his wife! I understood that to mean that she can let herself go, and he should just sit back, and appreciate the newer, bigger wife, the way she is. I OTOH believe that he should speak up and be honest about how he feels, if in fact that displeases him. I never said anything about depriving his first wife of sex. That would clearly go against Scripture! I specifically stated that there are different ways that men deal with it, and some ways are better than others, but clearly to deny your first wife those marital duties, is not something any of us stand for!

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

I’m gonna say that knowing the culture and customs, this interpretation is way off base. I was talking with a Orthodox Jewish lady the other day and she remarked that even mothers and fathers don’t touch their children of the opposite sex. Mothers cant touch their sons after they are 3 and older. Fathers don’t touch their daughters even to give hugs (at least in their group). Men and women who aren’t theirs do not touch, ever! Even to shake hands! That’s a huge taboo. It has nothing to do with being fastened to a woman, but touching a woman thats not yours.

Well, I guess your argument would be with Strong's then, not me. Would you then also conclude that the passage in Proverbs 5, is more than a recommendation, given the context in which it was written?

 

[FollowingHim]

The most important scriptural principle to remember here is contentment. We must be content with what we have. We must be thankful for what God has given us. This is an overarching principle that covers all aspects of life - 1 Timothy 6:6, Proverbs 14:30, Philippians 4:11, just to name a few. Contentment is a basic, fundamental character trait that we must learn.

Proverbs 5:18 applies this principle to marriage - be content with your wife, rejoice in her, enjoy her. And if you are content with her, and find ways to enjoy her, then you will not be tempted to infidelity. On the other hand, if you do NOT find contentment with her, you will be greatly tempted by other women. This can be dealt with positively, by marrying someone else, but can alternatively lead to sin. It is therefore dangerous to direct your sexual fantasies towards a hypothetical second woman, because it could cause you to jump into bed with the wrong one too rapidly (even the best men are susceptible to sexual temptation). Direct your sexual fantasies back to your wife, and you will then be able to calmly and carefully consider a second marriage with less risk of jumping into it to satisfy unsatisfied lust.

I have known Sarah for over 15 years, most of which we have been married. Over that time, her weight has fluctuated greatly for various reasons, including health ones - I can sympathise with your wife having thyroid problems. The entire time, I have found her very attractive. Do I have preferences in her weight? Yes, because I want her to be healthy. But I am fundamentally attracted to her, as a person. Her personality causes me to be attracted to her body. In fact, I was attracted to her personality before I was attracted to her physically. It is the fact that she is Sarah that makes her attractive to me. Physical form is just the icing on the cake (and I like the icing too, but the cake tastes great even if the icing is imperfect).

You need to learn to enjoy what you have. While overweight, she'll have awesome breasts. While slim, she'll have an awesome waist. Overweight there's padding over the bones (cushioning in intimacy), slim she's easy to carry. There's something to enjoy in every situation.

Obviously, health is important. @Daniel DeLuca, the point others are making is that you are looking at the superficial final symptom of poor health (obesity), and trying to attack that symptom (with drugs). Others are suggesting that a more holistic view of health would be far more beneficial - hence suggestions about removing sugar from your diets etc. These are positive, loving suggestions from people who have been where you are and have worked through it. They are trying to help you learn from their experiences, and their mistakes. Everything is being said in love - but you are struggling to perceive it that way for emotional reasons. The more you struggle to perceive it, the more strongly people speak, culminating in hyperbole like "do you want to kill her" being used to emphasise an opinion that what you are doing is unhealthy. Such statements are simply an attempt to get you to listen to what is being said. They are not an accusation of actual evil intent.

Calm down. If you need to leave the conversation to do that, then leave the conversation until you're calm.

Maybe pull off your wife's clothes and find some detail that you can really, really rejoice in for a while...

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Well, I guess your argument would be with Strong's then, not me. Would you then also conclude that the passage in Proverbs 5, is more than a recommendation, given the context in which it was written?

From your posted link

Thayer's Definition

1. to fasten one's self to, adhere to, cling to
   1. to touch
   2. of carnal intercourse with a women or cohabitation
   3. of levitical practice of having no fellowship with heathen practices. Things not to be touched appear to be both women and certain kinds of food, so celibacy and abstinence of certain kinds of food and drink are recommended.
   4. to touch, assail anyone

Kinda looks like “to fasten ones self to” means to touch primarily. If it does mean sex, why are you worried about how attractive your wife is to you. Seems like she’s helping you out.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

The most important scriptural principle to remember here is contentment. We must be content with what we have. We must be thankful for what God has given us. This is an overarching principle that covers all aspects of life - 1 Timothy 6:6, Proverbs 14:30, Philippians 4:11, just to name a few. Contentment is a basic, fundamental character trait that we must learn.

Proverbs 5:18 applies this principle to marriage - be content with your wife, rejoice in her, enjoy her. And if you are content with her, and find ways to enjoy her, then you will not be tempted to infidelity. On the other hand, if you do NOT find contentment with her, you will be greatly tempted by other women. This can be dealt with positively, by marrying someone else, but can alternatively lead to sin. It is therefore dangerous to direct your sexual fantasies towards a hypothetical second woman, because it could cause you to jump into bed with the wrong one too rapidly (even the best men are susceptible to sexual temptation). Direct your sexual fantasies back to your wife, and you will then be able to calmly and carefully consider a second marriage with less risk of jumping into it to satisfy unsatisfied lust.

I have known Sarah for over 15 years, most of which we have been married. Over that time, her weight has fluctuated greatly for various reasons, including health ones - I can sympathise with your wife having thyroid problems. The entire time, I have found her very attractive. Do I have preferences in her weight? Yes, because I want her to be healthy. But I am fundamentally attracted to her, as a person. Her personality causes me to be attracted to her body. In fact, I was attracted to her personality before I was attracted to her physically. It is the fact that she is Sarah that makes her attractive to me. Physical form is just the icing on the cake (and I like the icing too, but the cake tastes great even if the icing is imperfect).

You need to learn to enjoy what you have. While overweight, she'll have awesome breasts. While slim, she'll have an awesome waist. Overweight there's padding over the bones (cushioning in intimacy), slim she's easy to carry. There's something to enjoy in every situation.

Obviously, health is important. @Daniel DeLuca, the point others are making is that you are looking at the superficial final symptom of poor health (obesity), and trying to attack that symptom (with drugs). Others are suggesting that a more holistic view of health would be far more beneficial - hence suggestions about removing sugar from your diets etc. These are positive, loving suggestions from people who have been where you are and have worked through it. They are trying to help you learn from their experiences, and their mistakes. Everything is being said in love - but you are struggling to perceive it that way for emotional reasons. The more you struggle to perceive it, the more strongly people speak, culminating in hyperbole like "do you want to kill her" being used to emphasise an opinion that what you are doing is unhealthy. Such statements are simply an attempt to get you to listen to what is being said. They are not an accusation of actual evil intent.

Calm down. If you need to leave the conversation to do that, then leave the conversation until you're calm.

Maybe pull off your wife's clothes and find some detail that you can really, really rejoice in for a while...

I totally envy your way with words.

 

[FollowingHim]

I totally envy your way with words.

Then you need to learn to be content with your own.

 

[Maverick]

No dog in this fight, but...

RainyLondonFog- I know no women at all who are a "once a month woman" and only jump their man when they feel like it.

I know that this happens to people. I know someone very personally who experienced this for many...many years with the wife not even pursuing relations. The husband knew not to ask but once a month, otherwise it was as if it was a huge drag(even the monthly requests were scoffed at). This person I speak of loves Christ above all else and his family to. It happens. This guy actually got married in obedience to the scripture and then basically got cut off but for once a month for well over a decade.

What the husband did was get back into the gym got lean put on muscle and started living his life as a lion only needing Christ. He continued to love his wife and family, provide for them remained kind and gentle. But a lion. He had a bit of a mid-live revival. He has mentioned never feeling more free in his life and praises God every day.

As of to date, things have recently gotten much better for him. I think he mentioned to his wife that he wants to live biblical poly. He said something to the fact that they are now like newlyweds. I think he meant that as a figure of speech though as they have been married for many years now.

Having said that, I am glad that this is a foreign concept for you and the men who never have to experience what the person I speak of has experienced.

God bless you all!

Maverick

 

[RainyLondonFog]

Then you need to learn to be content with your own.

Bwahahahaha!

 

[RainyLondonFog]

No dog in this fight, but...

RainyLondonFog- I know no women at all who are a "once a month woman" and only jump their man when they feel like it.

I know that this happens to people. I know someone very personally who experienced this for many...many years with the wife not even pursuing relations. The husband knew not to ask but once a month, otherwise it was as if it was a huge drag(even the monthly requests were scoffed at). This person I speak of loves Christ above all else and his family to. It happens. This guy actually got married in obedience to the scripture and then basically got cut off but for once a month for well over a decade.

What the husband did was get back into the gym got lean put on muscle and started living his life as a lion only needing Christ. He continued to love his wife and family, provide for them remained kind and gentle. But a lion. He had a bit of a mid-live revival. He has mentioned never feeling more free in his life and praises God every day.

As of to date, things have recently gotten much better for him. I think he mentioned to his wife that he wants to live biblical poly. He said something to the fact that they are now like newlyweds. I think he meant that as a figure of speech though as they have been married for many years now.

Having said that, I am glad that this is a foreign concept for you and the men who never have to experience what the person I speak of has experienced.

God bless you all!

Maverick

I am happy to hear that things are better for them.

 

[steve]

Holy Flying Catfish, Batman!!!!!


I finally have had a chance to read all of this (loading my truck, not all of us live on a computer) and wow!
My wives can be dramatic, but even combined they cannot hold a candle to you!

It was sarcasm.
It was hyperbole.

But seriously, when my health hit bottom my wife and I purposed to do everything within our power to become healthy. It just doesn’t seem sane to me that someone would be so blasé about it.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

The most important scriptural principle to remember here is contentment. We must be content with what we have. We must be thankful for what God has given us. This is an overarching principle that covers all aspects of life - 1 Timothy 6:6, Proverbs 14:30, Philippians 4:11, just to name a few. Contentment is a basic, fundamental character trait that we must learn.

Proverbs 5:18 applies this principle to marriage - be content with your wife, rejoice in her, enjoy her. And if you are content with her, and find ways to enjoy her, then you will not be tempted to infidelity. On the other hand, if you do NOT find contentment with her, you will be greatly tempted by other women. This can be dealt with positively, by marrying someone else, but can alternatively lead to sin. It is therefore dangerous to direct your sexual fantasies towards a hypothetical second woman, because it could cause you to jump into bed with the wrong one too rapidly (even the best men are susceptible to sexual temptation). Direct your sexual fantasies back to your wife, and you will then be able to calmly and carefully consider a second marriage with less risk of jumping into it to satisfy unsatisfied lust.

I have known Sarah for over 15 years, most of which we have been married. Over that time, her weight has fluctuated greatly for various reasons, including health ones - I can sympathise with your wife having thyroid problems. The entire time, I have found her very attractive. Do I have preferences in her weight? Yes, because I want her to be healthy. But I am fundamentally attracted to her, as a person. Her personality causes me to be attracted to her body. In fact, I was attracted to her personality before I was attracted to her physically. It is the fact that she is Sarah that makes her attractive to me. Physical form is just the icing on the cake (and I like the icing too, but the cake tastes great even if the icing is imperfect).

You need to learn to enjoy what you have. While overweight, she'll have awesome breasts. While slim, she'll have an awesome waist. Overweight there's padding over the bones (cushioning in intimacy), slim she's easy to carry. There's something to enjoy in every situation.

Obviously, health is important. @Daniel DeLuca, the point others are making is that you are looking at the superficial final symptom of poor health (obesity), and trying to attack that symptom (with drugs). Others are suggesting that a more holistic view of health would be far more beneficial - hence suggestions about removing sugar from your diets etc. These are positive, loving suggestions from people who have been where you are and have worked through it. They are trying to help you learn from their experiences, and their mistakes. Everything is being said in love - but you are struggling to perceive it that way for emotional reasons. The more you struggle to perceive it, the more strongly people speak, culminating in hyperbole like "do you want to kill her" being used to emphasise an opinion that what you are doing is unhealthy. Such statements are simply an attempt to get you to listen to what is being said. They are not an accusation of actual evil intent.

Calm down. If you need to leave the conversation to do that, then leave the conversation until you're calm.

Maybe pull off your wife's clothes and find some detail that you can really, really rejoice in for a while...

WHAT!!!!! I Tim 6 and Phil 4:11 are about MATERIAL possessions, and I don't know what translation you are using to conclude Prov 14:30 is about contentment! I am happy for you if you can find someone appealing with whatever weight they have, but I see no mandate in Scripture for that, whatsoever. Using Prov 5:18, is indefensible. It would be like saying, why would you want this alluring seductive adulteress woman over here, when you can enjoy the cow that you already have? How does that make any sense?

Using the term "tempted" implies that having another wife would be sinful, which you ought to know, is not true at all! If I had a fantasy about my wife being slim, I would have no trouble whatsoever directing those fantasies towards her. She is getting there, so we shall see.

I don't mind any suggestion that I treat a problem holistically, not that we haven't tried that already, but I do mind when someone tries to insinuate that I am trying to kill her. I have given @steve a chance to respond to that. I don't know what happened to him, but you guys ought to reconsider your presumptions about me overreacting, considering his silence. If he was using hyperbole, why doesn't he say so himself?

I have already pointed out that I find no appeal whatsoever in cellulite. If that works for you guys, GREAT! You ought to have no problem whatsoever finding as many sister wives as your heart desires! For me, having two wives that let themselves go and have no concern whatsoever about their weight problem, is not any more appealing than having one wife that does so. It's like double trouble. No thanks. At least the one wife that I do have, cares enough about her weight problem to do something about it. Let me know when that holistic approach works for you guys. I won't be holding my breath!

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

OK Thanks @steve ! Remember what James has to say about the tongue!

Seeing as this is a public forum, I want to ensure that people who read this, don't come off concluding that I am some sort of monster. I just find it absurd that I had to take so much flack from you guys, simply for making sure people understand that I would never intentionally do anything to hurt my wife.

 

[FollowingHim]

It would be like saying, why would you want this alluring seductive adulteress woman over here, when you can enjoy the cow that you already have?

You have a wife who is depressed and sometimes suicidal about her weight. You choose to reinforce this by calling her a cow. No wonder she's depressed. No wonder she eats sugar as a coping strategy. No wonder she's obese. This is a downward spiral, and you're perpetuating it with every criticism you make of her. "I hate how I look, let's eat some chocolate, I hate myself more, let's eat more chocolate". You have to CHANGE her direction, not push her faster!

And no wonder she won't accept polygamy! The biggest insecurity women talk about is the fear that he will find the other wife more attractive than them. Here, you're just saying outright that whoever you marry you'll be doing so because you find them more attractive than her. You're confirming the very worst fear of any woman - and confirming in her mind that she must maintain her objection to polygamy in order to retain any hope of having your affections.

If you maintain this attitude, your first wife will never accept you taking a second wife.

If you marry a second wife anyway, while keeping this attitude, your first wife will almost certainly leave.

Your attitude needs to completely change before you can ever be a successful plural husband. And, because God is wise and actually cares about women, not wanting them to be placed in a bad marriage, I expect he will maintain your wife's objection and put various other practical difficulties in your path to ensure you don't get a second wife until and unless you are actually ready for this.

Hard truths, but you need to hear them. Whether you choose to listen or not is up to you.


If you started complimenting your wife, finding the positives in her appearance, stopping criticising, I can guarantee that this whole spiral would cease and then change direction.


Everyone else - this is a perfect illustration of how not to speak about your wife, if you're trying to become a polygamist, or even if you just want to have a happy home and an enjoyable sex life.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

You have a wife who is depressed and sometimes suicidal about her weight. You choose to reinforce this by calling her a cow. No wonder she's depressed. No wonder she eats sugar as a coping strategy. No wonder she's obese. This is a downward spiral, and you're perpetuating it with every criticism you make of her. "I hate how I look, let's eat some chocolate, I hate myself more, let's eat more chocolate". You have to CHANGE her direction, not push her faster!

And no wonder she won't accept polygamy! The biggest insecurity women talk about is the fear that he will find the other wife more attractive than them. Here, you're just saying outright that whoever you marry you'll be doing so because you find them more attractive than her. You're confirming the very worst fear of any woman - and confirming that she must maintain her objection to polygamy in order to retain any hope of having your affections.

If you maintain this attitude, your first wife will never accept you taking a second wife.

If you marry a second wife anyway, while keeping this attitude, your first wife will almost certainly leave.

Your attitude needs to completely change before you can ever be a successful plural husband. And, because God is wise and actually cares about women, not wanting them to be placed in a bad marriage, I expect he will maintain your wife's objection and put various other practical difficulties in your path to ensure you don't get a second wife until and unless you are actually ready for this.

Hard truths, but you need to hear them. Whether you choose to listen or not is up to you.


If you started complimenting your wife, finding the positives in her appearance, stopping criticising, I can guarantee that this whole spiral would cease and then change direction.


Everyone else - this is a perfect illustration of how not to speak about your wife, if you're trying to become a polygamist, or even if you just want to have a happy home and an enjoyable sex life.

I am talking about the wife of the son of Solomon, whom that passage was written to. How is it you want me to calm down and then you go off and COMPLETELY misrepresent what I was saying? If you followed this conversation, you would see others on here trying to argue that the wife of his youth could have been rather large, which is completely nonsensical! How you turn this into me insulting my wife, is beyond the pale!

 

[FollowingHim]

I am talking about the wife of the son of Solomon, whom that passage was written to. How is it you want me to calm down and then go off and misrepresent what I was saying?

I'm talking about the attitude you are displaying towards your wife, don't get pedantic about one little quote.

Both of my last posts you have ignored by picking on the relevance of individual quotes. First you debated verses like Proverbs 14:30 - I could respond to that but it's not worth it, the parallelism is very clear in the verse if you were in a mood to listen but there's no point explaining that as it is a sideline. Now you're saying I misunderstood your quote - but again it is very clear that you are speaking about your own wife as unattractive, and other women as more attractive, debating whether you'd apply the precise word "cow" to your wife is again a way of avoiding listening to the overall message.

The overall point is that you need to:

• Be content with your wife. And
  
• Build her up with positive encouragement, not drag her down through criticism.

You choose whether to listen to the wise advice offered by myself and others, or find excuses to ignore it by getting angry over details.

Do you want your wife to lose weight, be happy, give you better sex, and accept polygamy? Or not? Up to you.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

I'm talking about the attitude you are displaying towards your wife, don't get pedantic about one little quote.

Both of my last posts you have ignored by picking on the relevance of individual quotes. First you debated verses like Proverbs 14:30 - I could respond to that but it's not worth it, the parallelism is very clear in the verse if you were in a mood to listen but there's no point explaining that as it is a sideline. Now you're saying I misunderstood your quote - but again it is very clear that you are speaking about your own wife as unattractive, and other women as more attractive, debating whether you'd apply the precise word "cow" to your wife is again a way of avoiding listening to the overall message.

The overall point is that you need to:

• Be content with your wife. And
  
• Build her up with positive encouragement, not drag her down through criticism.

You choose whether to listen to the wise advice offered by myself and others, or find excuses to ignore it by getting angry over details.

Do you want your wife to lose weight, be happy, give you better sex, and accept polygamy? Or not? Up to you.

NO! I am not talking about my wife at all here! I am pointing out the misuse of Prov 5:18. That is ALL! If you want to explain which translation you used for Prov 14:30, I am willing to listen. I'll do even better. I'll look it up at scripture4all.org, when I get a chance to do so.

You have no idea how I treat my wife! Whenever I tell her that she is beautiful, she almost always responds with, "No! I am ugly, fat and stupid." That is her thyroid speaking sir. It has nothing to do with me or how I have treated her. My wife is losing weight. She thanked me for being up front and honest with her about her desire to use money from my income, to pay for yet another weight loss program, which each and every attempt she has made, was of her own volition, without one criticism from me about her weight or appearance. I give my wife better sex, and when she reaches the target weight, she will likewise be giving me better sex. I also have learned some things we discussed in another forum, that I believe is working and will eventually bring her around to accepting polygamy; a technique which @eye4them introduced, and I am seeing positive results, so I am fine there.

 

[FollowingHim]

Proverbs 14:30
KJV: A sound heart is the life of the flesh: but envy the rottenness of the bones.
ESV: A tranquil heart gives life to the flesh, but envy makes the bones rot.
NASB: A tranquil heart is life to the body, But passion is rottenness to the bones.

A tranquil heart is a contented heart.
The interpretation "tranquil" is fair because this is a poetic parallelism. The second part of the statement has either the same or the opposite meaning to the first part, like most poetry in scripture. The heart has the opposite state to envy - ie it is not envious or upset, but rather peaceful, tranquil, contented.

But it's not about this one verse. My point was building on the fact that contentedness is a common theme throughout scripture. I cited a few verses that are related to this general theme, only by way of illustration - I thought that the concept of contentedness and satisfaction with what God has given us just goes without saying and didn't need a full scriptural exposition, it's basic milk I was accepting as obvious and then discussing from. If I need to actually prove this point from scripture I'd take a different and more comprehensive approach than throwing out a few related citations.

 

[FollowingHim]

NO! I am not talking about my wife at all here!
...
You have no idea how I treat my wife! Whenever I tell her that she is beautiful, she almost always responds with, "No! I am ugly, fat and stupid." That is her thyroid speaking sir. It has nothing to do with me or how I have treated her. My wife is losing weight. She thanked me for being up front and honest with her about her desire to use money from my income, to pay for yet another weight loss program, which each and every attempt she has made, was of her own volition, without one criticism from me about her weight or appearance.

I am pleased to hear this.

Here however, behind her back (I assume she is not reading this?) you are telling us that you find her unattractive. This is negative talk that she would find extremely painful to read if she does come across it. Also, if this is truly your attitude, she cannot fail to see it, even if you use other words to her. I believe you will find valid points in my recent posts, if you took the time to sift through them and consider whether some parts are applicable, at least in part, rather than rejecting them out-of-hand.

The best piece of advice my wife and I were given pre-marriage, was to not talk negatively about each other behind each other's backs. To be positive and affirming even when the other was not there.