It might be a bummer if the police got curious.
And they do think of those things.
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Shared vs separate bank accounts?
- Thread starter Sam Speaks
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And they do think of those things.
This is the context of my response.
The woman who has cohabitated with the husband the longest, married, or otherwise is the legal first wife; this is usually the case because of common law. I think it's safe to assume she will receive the majority of the marital assets, as opposed to a new wife.
Interesting. Though I think marriage is risky for everyone for different reasons, men have more opportunities to earn money and earn more money. He may lose half of his assets in case of divorce, but he has the potential to continue earning and building more. A wife who has stayed at home for the past 20–30 years doesn't have that luxury. Yes, she may receive half of the marital assets, but her potential to earn money and support herself in the long term is extremely diminished at that point.
Well, the more wives he has, the harder i'll be to catch!@theleastofthese if you buy and make the payments on a life insurance policy on your husband, nobody could take it away from you. Pray that he wouldn’t die under mysterious circumstances, of course!
That's a good idea, but it doesn't cover expenses in cases of separation or divorce, which is something that is less interesting to talk about.
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We have been told, at least here in Arizona, that common law marriage really is not legal in the same sense. That it doesn't convert to being legal after any certain number of years.
My husband and I chose not to make the state a third party in our marriage 27 years ago. My sisterwife's family, when they found out told her "Then he CAN marry you legally!" ...and she said they didn't want that. Then the question was "Well, what kind of security do you have?"
That is kind of a silly question coming from people who were legally married.....AND legally divorced! What good was their imagined security of the legal process? The security she has is the same that I do....being with a man who would never want EITHER of us to leave!
A legal trust requires trust, any marriage also requires trust. All parties must be honest.
Agreeing to certain worst case scenario plans may cause you to end up there....or it may help you stay clear of that. When you can see a happy future with someone.. ...you worry less about the plan.
Who’s money is it to manage, that God has entrusted it to.
A: the husband.
Ensure your marrying a Godly man, and be a great wife and you have nothing to worry about.
I will never divorce my wives ever, unless they commit adultery. Won’t happen
I have to admit, I'm a little surprised by the lack of logic vs. love in this discussion. Love isn't even required scripturally for marriage to begin with.
I agree that primarily focusing on the negative is not beneficial; however, I feel these are important discussions (among many other things) to have before entering a lifelong commitment. Some of you say my preference is due to a lack of trust, but running from these discussions and hiding behind the premise of fairytale love stories is what screams lack of trust and forethought to me.
Though divorce and separations are discouraged biblically, there are still instances in scripture where they are discussed. Divorce happens, deaths happen, and separations happen. I'm sure some of you have lived through those things yourselves and even wish you'd planned something differently, just as we all have with many things in life. This is just one less thing i'll have to worry about.
As far as I know, there's nothing in scripture stating that a single woman can't have these talks and agreements before marriage. Just because some of you chose not to, that doesn't mean your marriage will last longer, just as discussing them beforehand doesn't suddenly curse a future marriage.
If you feel so assured that nothing bad will happen because you will be together forever no matter what, then transfer all of your funds and assets to your wives. After all, she's not going anywhere, and neither are you...
I agree that primarily focusing on the negative is not beneficial; however, I feel these are important discussions (among many other things) to have before entering a lifelong commitment. Some of you say my preference is due to a lack of trust, but running from these discussions and hiding behind the premise of fairytale love stories is what screams lack of trust and forethought to me.
Though divorce and separations are discouraged biblically, there are still instances in scripture where they are discussed. Divorce happens, deaths happen, and separations happen. I'm sure some of you have lived through those things yourselves and even wish you'd planned something differently, just as we all have with many things in life. This is just one less thing i'll have to worry about.
As far as I know, there's nothing in scripture stating that a single woman can't have these talks and agreements before marriage. Just because some of you chose not to, that doesn't mean your marriage will last longer, just as discussing them beforehand doesn't suddenly curse a future marriage.
If you feel so assured that nothing bad will happen because you will be together forever no matter what, then transfer all of your funds and assets to your wives. After all, she's not going anywhere, and neither are you...
Of course. But the new wife may be entitled to some. Let's assume a married man takes on a second wife, who decides to run away a few years later - but takes him to court for some of his assets. And the court determines she deserves 1/5th of his property. His property happens to be one house, which he lives in with his first wife and children. How can he pay her out 1/5th of his property? Only by selling the family home.
Which is what I meant by he had "Everything" to risk. Mathematically, he might only have a portion of his assets at risk. But practically, the life of his entire family could be completely upended by a failed second marriage - he could lose his home, and if his first wife was pissed off that they were all kicked out on the street because of his insistence on sleeping with that other woman (she'll likely look at it in the worst possible light at this point), he might lose her and the children also. Maybe he'll have some cash left, but in practical terms he could lose everything.
On the flipside, in the West, especially if she has children, she'll easily get on some form of government welfare scheme, and will likely have no problem whatsoever being supported for the long term (provided her expectations of luxury are not too high). He will likely find it more difficult to access such funds and will find less is available.
Honestly @theleastofthese, you have a very one-sided attitude. You only see the positives for the man and the negatives for the wife. You have zero appreciation for the serious cost and risk it is to a man to take on a second wife. To be blunt, because I think you should probably hear it from somebody, nobody sensible will even try to catch you if you have this attitude. You do not sound ready to commit, you sound poised to flee at the first sign of trouble. A woman with this attitude is a serious liability to a man, especially as a second wife. She may very easily get sex from a foolish man, even a string of foolish men, but will not get commitment from a wise one.Well, the more wives he has, the harder i'll be to catch!
If you're still reading - I did say that out of love, so you can learn. Do try to put yourself in a man's shoes and think more about this.
We are not naive. Divorce happens. But you don't plan for divorce, you plan to be married until you die. You do everything you can to achieve that goal. Burn every bridge so you have to push forward to it. If the worst happens, you'll deal with it then. But planning for it makes it far more likely. Plan for success, not failure - and if you're worried that failure might occur, work out how to succeed instead.
No, it doesn’t have to. I’ve been married to the wife of my youth for 32 years. Short of her committing adultery, I will NEVER divorce her EVER. Same with my second.
Unscriptural. Husband is to run household, not shirk those responsibilities and pass the buck to wives.
I agree that he could lose a lot, but as I stated before, he has the ability to rebuild, which is something a woman does not have. We can't deny that men and women are different, and men are built to work harder, thus benefiting them in the rebuilding phase.
Well, he won't be a single mother, so why would he need them? Once again, this goes back to him having the ability to rebuild without having to constantly care for children. Disclaimer: I don't think this is a good idea at all! Just speaking in hypotheticals.
I disagree; I see the negatives that divorce causes for everyone, not only financially but emotionally and spiritually, and don't even get me started on the damage that I think separating children from their father does. I just think that due to men and women being different, their struggles are different, and i'm merely pointing them out.
You're not the first to say this, and i'm sure you won't be the last. I'll just find someone who is open to having honest communication and doesn't flee at the very thought of things not working out how they see fit.
I'm not seeking sex or short-term commitment at all or engaging in such things; I've literally saved myself for marriage my entire life because I place so much value on it; I will not leave my husband once I find the right man; the right man for me just happens to be someone who doesn't get his pants in a bunch over discussing the negatives.
As far as taking a risk on me being a second wife, my desire and goals are to contribute to my future husband's household far more than I take from it and attempting to live my life the way I have up until this point only supports those claims. You know nothing about my liability or commitment as a second or third wife other than an opinion i've expressed regarding one topic.
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If he chooses to let his wife manage the finances, it could easily become scriptural, could it not?
He could be a single father. I’ve known at least two fathers who’s wives ran out on them leaving him with the kids permanently.
Definitely, it's just not the norm. Courts typically side with the mothers.
@theleastofthese, @steve had a good idea. Instead of investing money into a separate escape hatch bank account, talk to him about contributing those funds into a life insurance policy with you as the beneficiary. This is what I plan to do with my second soon, as well as will her some assets. Talk with your potential husband about this before marrying and he should be willing to do some of these things. He’s not going to want to leave you empty handed.
I agree, i'm all ears to better ideas, I just don't see how this protects the second or third wife in case of divorce or separation, for whatever reason this could happen.
There's a tremendous amount of both logic and love in this discussion from my perspective.
It absolutely is. I don't know who told you otherwise.
Ephesians 5:25-33
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
I think most everyone here would agree they are important discussions to have before entering a lifelong commitment.
I don't think anybody is "running from these discussions" as we're discussing them with a stranger. I had these kinds of discussions with my wife prior to marrying her. But I can guarantee if she insisted on having her own savings account that I was required to contribute to or that she was contributing to. I would have absolutely known for a fact that her loyalty was not 100% focused on me. That she did not trust me to care for her and provide for her needs. This is self evident because she would be reducing from the family's success and financial health in order to reserve enough capital for her to meet her needs if I kicked her out.
If she didn't trust my vow to care for her and love her until death, she would insist on such a financial setup. If she trusted my vow was true she would never insist on something like that. This is purely logical.
By demanding that financial capital be tied up in her safety net, she would be demonstrating she in fact did not trust me and was willing to harm me and my household to assuage her fears of abandonment. If CatieF had an attitude or worldview like that when we were courting I would have said, "Thanks but no thanks! If you're not with me 100% and focusing everything on our future together, then you're not asking for a husband, you're asking for something I will not be a part of."
Divorce is forbidden except in the case of sexual impurity. Period.
Yes, bad things happen. And out of love we are trying to encourage you to realize that holding the attitude of fear like that is going to communicate to a good man that you're not capable of fully submitting to his headship and truly committing to him. If you were fully committed there would not be a need for a fallback position that took away from the financial success of the family as a whole. Those funds could be invested in the success of the family instead of a hypothetical bad scenario.
Of course discussing them beforehand does not suddenly curse a future marriage. But there's a resounding answer from men at large that if a single woman holds that as a deal breaker point, it's a major red flag. You're of course free to do as you wish.
There could be a miscommunication, it doesn't seem like you're saying discussion of these things is important but instead it seems like you are insisting that you having that separate and ongoing reallocation of funds to give you a soft cushion for when things fail is essential for your feelings of security and therefore is something you would insist upon. If that's not what you're saying, please let us know. It could be we are all speaking at cross purposes here and all misunderstanding one another.
Several reasons why that is unwise and not allowed in a biblical marriage:
1. Women initiate 80+% of divorces. So statistically speaking this would be exceedingly unwise and myopic.
2. Abdication of the man's authority and responsibility to provide for his wives and children would be abhorrent to any real man, and especially one who conforms to God's design and instructions. According to scripture the assets are entrusted to the husband to manage for God. The wives do not have this responsibility, nor does the husband have scriptural authority to abdicate this responsibility.
You may find such a man. It was interesting to me how many men objected to Jenny's list of questions back when I posted them. To me it made sense to find out how he expected to raise his kids, and all those other things. We are looking at a lifetime commitment! Would a man take a job and sign a long term contract without doing some research??
It may be worth taking in the reactions of these men though, as they are proven husbands.
Men and women look at this differently. My primary concerns before marriage were more about his morals, and then lifestyle choices. I knew as he was responsible finances were his responsibility.
I think what we are seeing in this discussion is that a man is looking for someone that admires him and his abilities. Too many questions cause him to feel she doubts him. This causes him to see her as a risk to leave.....and this kind of conversation amplifies that feeling.
She may be looking for reassurance and trying to feel him out based on his responses to her questions.....while the very fact that she's asking them is pushing him away.
I had to learn that asking my husband "Why don't you......." when he's working on something is saying to him "you're doing that wrong."....and here I thought I was being helpful offering a suggestion!
So maybe stalking men here or elsewhere....reading their opinions....and talking to people that know them would be better than asking them these things.
I'm not trying to avoid the conversation. I'm giving my honest answer to it - it's just not the sort of answer you're expecting.
In summary: If you plan to fail, you'll probably fail. If you plan to succeed, you'll probably succeed.
Which means that rather than asking "How can I provide security for myself if this marriage falls apart", you'd be far better asking "How can I ensure this marriage does not fall apart".
Nick has also made an excellent point that if you are putting money aside in a savings account outside the family, just in case, you are taking away resources that could be used to boost the family. Money in a savings account is essentially useless to you until such a time as you choose to spend it - and that money could be being used for some good purpose. It's a financial burden to the family, whoever is the one technically earning the money that goes into it. The opposite way to use that money would be to invest it in an asset that is used by the family - a tool, a car, a house (depending how much money we're talking about). Now it's actually doing good work for both you and everyone else, improving the family situation. And, although this wasn't the plan, in the unlikely event that the marriage does fall apart (unlikely now because you're planning for success rather than thinking about failure), you might still end up with that asset yourself - if it's the car that was bought for you to use, you might end up finding yourself driving away in it. The more resources the family has while you're there, the more you may leave with in such a situation. But that should never be the plan, because the very act of planning it makes it much more likely.
Thank you Samuel, you as always are a gentle juxtaposition to my harshness.
I just want to add that my heart in this matter is not to chastise or gripe, but rather to hopefully redirect the energy being focused into the fear of loss towards something much more praiseworthy.
Whatsoever things are good, praiseworthy, think on those things. Count the cost and set forth to build a tower. Whatsoever thing you do, do it to the Glory of God.
I understand the fear you’re talking about. I wrestled with God and resisted Him for too long about polygyny because I don’t want to risk what I have. There is more risk in my accepting another woman into my household than gain for me. While I can certainly see benefits. The risks it seems to me will outweigh the benefits. But He has directed my path in this, and I’m submitted to His will. That means I may suffer loss if I don’t choose wisely. But when I do, that woman will know she is mine, and I will wash her in my words, I will iron out wrinkles, and mend flaws.
So for your sake I pray you will choose wisely and give your ALL, every fiber of your being to seeing the good of your husband, his other wives if he has any, and his children. Because that is His example that He has set. We as believers are not to hold anything back in case it doesn’t work out with God. We are to act with self sacrifice towards His other betrothed brides, and seek the good of those who love Him. Our focus is not to be on what we can do to protect ourselves, but on how we can serve Him. Likewise ye wives be in subjection to your husbands. In the same way you’re submitted to Jesus, be submitted to your husband. Not holding back in fear of failure, but giving your all.
So vet that man, seek wisdom from others who know his character. Observe. Offer your help in serving his mission in life. Work with him while observing his real life character when he fails. See how he responds to success. Do all this before making a lifelong commitment. Then when you know him and his family well enough. Please trust him enough to give all of yourself. Don’t ask to keep an easy way out. Demonstrate to him that you are all in until the last tic of the clock. A woman with that kind of commitment is a treasure worth fighting for.
I just want to add that my heart in this matter is not to chastise or gripe, but rather to hopefully redirect the energy being focused into the fear of loss towards something much more praiseworthy.
Whatsoever things are good, praiseworthy, think on those things. Count the cost and set forth to build a tower. Whatsoever thing you do, do it to the Glory of God.
I understand the fear you’re talking about. I wrestled with God and resisted Him for too long about polygyny because I don’t want to risk what I have. There is more risk in my accepting another woman into my household than gain for me. While I can certainly see benefits. The risks it seems to me will outweigh the benefits. But He has directed my path in this, and I’m submitted to His will. That means I may suffer loss if I don’t choose wisely. But when I do, that woman will know she is mine, and I will wash her in my words, I will iron out wrinkles, and mend flaws.
So for your sake I pray you will choose wisely and give your ALL, every fiber of your being to seeing the good of your husband, his other wives if he has any, and his children. Because that is His example that He has set. We as believers are not to hold anything back in case it doesn’t work out with God. We are to act with self sacrifice towards His other betrothed brides, and seek the good of those who love Him. Our focus is not to be on what we can do to protect ourselves, but on how we can serve Him. Likewise ye wives be in subjection to your husbands. In the same way you’re submitted to Jesus, be submitted to your husband. Not holding back in fear of failure, but giving your all.
So vet that man, seek wisdom from others who know his character. Observe. Offer your help in serving his mission in life. Work with him while observing his real life character when he fails. See how he responds to success. Do all this before making a lifelong commitment. Then when you know him and his family well enough. Please trust him enough to give all of yourself. Don’t ask to keep an easy way out. Demonstrate to him that you are all in until the last tic of the clock. A woman with that kind of commitment is a treasure worth fighting for.
I’m torn in this conversation because I see, and think that I understand, both sides of it.
The reality is that, for whatever reason, too many of these relationships have gone south.
There is a saying about partnerships in businesses, (it is also said of marriages) if you don’t use a lawyer when setting one up, you will certainly need one when shutting it down. In my first partnership in a cabinet shop, I had neither. And it cost me big time. So I am kind of a “prepare for the worst and pray for the best” kind of guy, even though I’m presently not taking my own advice.
So here is a couple of different scenarios and how I see them working out.
First, if a woman has assets, they should be protected. The family should not absorb them and leave her bereft of them if things go south. That would, in my opinion, be an abuse of the relationship.
The more common scenario is that a woman comes into the family with more debt than assets. She probably has to keep working in order to service her debt. In this case I can see her putting aside some savings each month. If she keeps her own, supervised, accounts, it may go easier for all if things go south.
This is all that I have time for right now, but we haven’t addressed the possibility of a pregnancy that could saddle a family with 18 years of financial drainage.
The reality is that, for whatever reason, too many of these relationships have gone south.
There is a saying about partnerships in businesses, (it is also said of marriages) if you don’t use a lawyer when setting one up, you will certainly need one when shutting it down. In my first partnership in a cabinet shop, I had neither. And it cost me big time. So I am kind of a “prepare for the worst and pray for the best” kind of guy, even though I’m presently not taking my own advice.
So here is a couple of different scenarios and how I see them working out.
First, if a woman has assets, they should be protected. The family should not absorb them and leave her bereft of them if things go south. That would, in my opinion, be an abuse of the relationship.
The more common scenario is that a woman comes into the family with more debt than assets. She probably has to keep working in order to service her debt. In this case I can see her putting aside some savings each month. If she keeps her own, supervised, accounts, it may go easier for all if things go south.
This is all that I have time for right now, but we haven’t addressed the possibility of a pregnancy that could saddle a family with 18 years of financial drainage.