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So... I told my pastor that I believe a man having more than one wife is not a sin

Asforme&myhouse said:
He said i was reading the scriptures, that I referred to, with a presupposition that polygyny is ok.
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It's frustrating to see "logic" like this. There is so much wrong with it. First, the same could be said about his reading of scriptures with the presumption that polygyny is rejected. Most of us were originally taught on the presumption that polygyny is rejected and the most basic of translations can support that frame. But get under the skin... we know the score. Second, and I think is the Big One, is that so many people, especially in the U.S., have gotten used to having/wanting a law to "allow" them to do something that they forget that any law's purpose is only to require or prohibit something. Laws were not supposed to "allow" anything. Gaahh!
Sorry. </rant>

Asforme&myhouse said:
We can stay as long as I don't mention what I believe about marriage to anyone else, if I do we will be thrown out.
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Interesting. If that day does come, and if it does it will be His will, on the way out, maybe suggest he kick everyone else out who also is doing something wrong. Or not. Your call when the time comes. For some reason I sound grumpy today...

EDIT: Grammar!
 
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Asforme&myhouse said:
He holds to the American understanding of adultery, divorce and remarriage. He is not interested in looking at the law to see God's definition of adultery, because, "we are not under law, we are under grace".
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The American understanding of adultery is stricter than the biblical one, in that it applies to both men and women and thereby forbids polygamy. So in effect, what he is saying is:
"We are not under law, we're under grace, which means that we're actually under an even stricter law now that forbids polygamy".
So many people think this way, and just can't see how they are completely contradicting themselves. "Grace" has become divorced from its actual definition and simply thrown around to justify whatever the speaker wants to believe.
 
Asforme&myhouse, I commend you for both having the conversation and having respect for your elders in the church. I would encourage further discussion with your pastor, but respectfully insist that the conversation stick to the Bible. Approach this in prayer. Be sure you are honest with yourself about what the Bible says. What I mean is don't stretch scripture to endorse polygyny - there is enough that endorses it already on its own. I love a good debate about what might have been, but that is not the right road here, imho. Through your good example and prayerful, well thought out approach, may you help him become a Berean.

By the way, Dr. Luck's work is amazing. He approaches this in a way that speaks to me. Tom Shipley is another one for whom I have that same respect.
 
Since I'm in the situation of being the pastor-teacher, I can tell you from first-hand experience that this is a subject where established principles for hermeneutics get set aside and emotions take over (on both sides of the issue). Even where people struggle to find sound biblical support for their position, they abandon what can be clearly seen in God's word and instead hold onto the established religious traditions. I must say here, I come from that background of believing the established religious traditions but it was genuine questions from a new Christian, reading and learning from the Bible for the first time, that prompted me to look more closely at this issue and to see exactly what God has said. Since I teach that we must stick to what God has said (the historical, literal-grammatical method of interpretation), and not speculate, I was challenged by my own methodology and the things I constantly remind others of, to believe God's word. It took a while and lots of questions being asked by a new Christian, but God has been most patient and granted me the grace to change. It is the power and authority of the word of God that changes people's hearts; the gospel calls sinners to salvation and then sanctifies those God saves. If I might offer one piece of advise above all others; don't try to argue anyone into believing your understanding of the Bible (including the man God has placed as pastor-teacher in the church you meet with). Rely on the power and authority of God's word, enabled in the hearts of His people by the Holy Spirit, and God will fulfil His promise to conform His redeemed to the image of His Son (Rom. 8:29). Take all the time God gives you and have your confidence in Him to effect His purposes through His word in the lives of His people. God doesn't fail. Blessings and best wishes to you all.
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
, "we are not under law, we are under grace".
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Except somehow there's a law against polygyny. I get so mad at guys like this. Everything is flipped upside down. There is no Law when we are talking about the things God forbids like divorce and remarriage but there are iron clad laws when we're talking about things He endorses. And then they wonder why they can't affect the culture, their children (when they have any) won't stay in the church and their divorce rate is the same as the world's.

It is only by God's grace that He hasn't blighted us off the face of the earth. I just read tonight in Samuel where Saul sought God's Will and He wouldn't respond so Saul went to see a witch. That's where we are in the west. God won't answer us anymore because we don't listen anyway and so we enthusiastically chase falsehood and idolatry.

Incidentally, this will get out to the board and elders soon and you most likely will be asked to leave no matter what. Shake the dust from your feet and move on.
 
I believe the only reason I haven't been kicked out yet is because I was respectful in presenting it and he thinks he might be able to convince me otherwise.
 
frederick said:
. It is the power and authority of the word of God that changes people's hearts; the gospel calls sinners to salvation and then sanctifies those God saves. If I might offer one piece of advise above all others; don't try to argue anyone into believing your understanding of the Bible (including the man God has placed as pastor-teacher in the church you meet with). Rely on the power and authority of God's word, enabled in the hearts of His people by the Holy Spirit, and God will fulfil His promise to conform His redeemed to the image of His Son (Rom. 8:29).
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This is very good advice, and a good perspective to keep.
Hubby got into the subject of polygyny years ago with his brother, who was certain it was wrong. He moved away, and we had little contact, but one day on the phone he shared that his studies had brought him to our understanding, that polygyny is acceptable and lawful Biblically.

It is nice to enjoy fellowship with others who share our views, but planting seeds of growth and change in others, means we can hope for closer fellowship with them in the future.
 
Okay, let me get this straight.

You haven't taken a second wife, or even brought one with you, yet you are in danger of being kicked out for a scriptural belief ? Would he kick out Abraham and Jacob? How does he think we got the twelve tribes? Does he despise Joseph? No polygamy, no savior of Egypt.

What is he afraid of? Does he think suddenly 10 male members will walk in with 3 wives each next week? Most men are scared to marry one wife as it is!

Would he kick you out if you told him you voted for Bernie Sanders?
 
He thinks it is "false teaching" and he wants to protect the flock. My words, not his, but i know him well enough to know where it's going. I know it sounds ridiculous, i mean we throw people out of the church for habitual unrepentant sin, not for studying the scriptures. I have to admit, I thought he would study it out and come back with something at least a little bit convincing, or change his mind, not just put up the wall. He has known me long enough that he knows that I am not blown about by every wind of doctrine. I have spent almost a year studying this before becoming completely convinced. It's not like I just flew off the handle one day and showed up with three wives. I came respectfully with something i have been studying and the walls went up.
 
Mojo said:
You haven't taken a second wife, or even brought one with you, yet you are in danger of being kicked out for a scriptural belief ?
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Asforme&myhouse said:
I know it sounds ridiculous, i mean we throw people out of the church for habitual unrepentant sin, not for studying the scriptures.
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That's what the church does. I was kicked out of mine for simply believing this and stating I could not recant it without being shown why it is wrong from scripture. It's completely wrong, it's completely ridiculous - but Christians have been so heavily indoctrinated with "lies inherited from our forefathers" that this is how it goes. They kick you out to protect the rest of the congregation from your heresy so you don't lead anyone else astray, due biblical process be damned.
 
It's difficult being challenged by something that is counter-cultural, and especially something as counter-cultural as polygyny. It can take many months to get one's head around what is actually written in God's word and not what one thinks is written. Continue presenting the truth because that will expose the error. Mind you, Jesus did that with the scribes and Pharisees and they murdered Him for it..... . Just saying.
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
Patriarchs: God permitted it, but it wasn't his ideal... And it caused all kinds of problems...

Women with multiple partners: He holds to the American understanding of adultery, divorce and remarriage. He is not interested in looking at the law to see God's definition of adultery, because, "we are not under law, we are under grace".

I didn't go full tilt, i wanted to be respectful in the way I approached him on this matter. I believe that is biblical.
1 Timothy 5:1
Do not rebuke an older man, but exhort him as a father, younger men as brothers,
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Just thought about these verses. Maybe your pastor should volunteer his services since...he is under Grace!

9For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth ofthe ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that threshethin hope should be partaker of his hope.
11If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
12If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
13Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
14Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospelshould live of the gospel.
 
Mojo said:
Just thought about these verses. Maybe your pastor should volunteer his services since...he is under Grace!

9For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth ofthe ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that threshethin hope should be partaker of his hope.
11If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
12If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
13Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
14Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospelshould live of the gospel.
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Just to be clear, I'm not trying to be disrespectful to your pastor or any other pastor. I just get frustrated when men who claim to honor the "whole counsel of God" pick and choose when to use the law (men can't lie with men) but then ignore other parts that they don't like.
 
Yes i agree. They just pick and choose what things want to believe... Like applying the rule of first mention, except when it isn't convenient.
 
Hi,

I never bring up any controversial subject in a group setting unless it has gotten to the point where truth must be defended. That goes for any subject. Not that it helps, but I try to do it from the "You might want to consider" concept while reminding the group that God's word is most important. Opinions are just that. Church doctrine comes about as man's idea of what scripture taught, but is sometimes modified over the generations. Some doctrines are based on a bad translation.

There was a while when I wondered if "Ask Me About Polygyny" was written on my forehead. Of several instances the one that stands out the most was in the hospital in Nashville. I am standing at the foot of my Dad's hospital bed. Mom was there as well as three nurses and my wife. Dad couldn't talk and Mom was in the beginnings of Alzheimer's. The conversation had been about Dad's progress. One of the nurses looked at me and asked, "What do you think about polygamy?". I quickly told her it was scriptural and fine. She was satisfied and left the room. Never saw her there again.

The worst I have ever seen was a little church in North Carolina where I suggested that Gomer didn't run away. Scripture says nothing about that. My wife and I had studied it out that week. We really hadn't noticed it before. So we suggested that God directed Hosea to take as wife a friend of Gomer's. It all works when you consider the two houses of Israel. An older gentleman across the room got so mad he started spitting trying to talk. He literally couldn't form words after that. That was a learning experience to me that any one could get that upset over an idea. Of course no one could prove that Gomer ran away, but they preferred the lie to what scripture said there. Who knows maybe years later someone who had been there was helped by that?

Personally I don't usually tell the preacher anything. There is no scriptural precedent that the preacher is some sort of go between between man and Christ or man and the church. The position of Elders come closer to that, but usually they don't know any more than anyone else. There are always exceptions of course. Eventually after enough helpful comments in Bible class one of them might approach you. I answer anything they ask, but I still have yet to meet any who were interested in what the scripture said. Their main goal was to protect the status quo and church doctrine. Breaking the status quo can upset grandma, split the church and ruin a nice paying job for the preacher.

Sure wish I had known about the Greek behind 1 Corinthians 7:2 more than a couple years ago.

Tim
 
ke4ke said:
The worst I have ever seen was a little church in North Carolina where I suggested that Gomer didn't run away. Scripture says nothing about that. My wife and I had studied it out that week. We really hadn't noticed it before. So we suggested that God directed Hosea to take as wife a friend of Gomer's. It all works when you consider the two houses of Israel. An older gentleman across the room got so mad he started spitting trying to talk. He literally couldn't form words after that. That was a learning experience to me that any one could get that upset over an idea. Of course no one could prove that Gomer ran away, but they preferred the lie to what scripture said there. Who knows maybe years later someone who had been there was helped by that?
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Now that is fascinating (Hosea 3:1 and context). We're always told Gomer ran away, but you're right that scripture never says that at all. It really does suggest that he might be marrying her friend, why else would the word "friend" be even mentioned? A second wife would fit the prophetic narrative very neatly. Although we're not told who the wife's "friend" was, she may have been friends with someone other than Gomer, that may even refer to a male friend she would go and commit adultery with because we are also told she would be an adulteress. We've got a tiny reference that could be read in multiple ways, the possibilities are endless. Lots to ponder.
 
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