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The Enemy of MY Family
- Thread starter Verifyveritas76
- Start date
Been there and that reaction when I realized I had been defrauded my identity as an Israelite or a Hebrew as I came to learn that the Feasts of the Lord, the Shabbat and generally, all of His Instructions are my birthright. Different topic for a different day, but I say that to explain that anger is normal, but must be worked through. Most men in ministry operated in ignorance and did the best they could with what they were taught. It is amazing to realize how very much we are deceived by the enemy.
And yet how exciting! To be raising the next generation without those centuries-old blinders... with clear vision of the Truth!
Oh, what these kids are capable of.....
"But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." 11 Cor. 3:18
Oh, what these kids are capable of.....
"But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." 11 Cor. 3:18
I stumbled across a very similar point just a day or two ago.
The third Commandment is to not take the name of the Lord in vain. Is not making a rash vow, which one cannot or should not keep without full knowledge, especially when that is hidden from them, exactly this? Zechariah 8:17 says God hates when we swear falsely. Maybe because it is breaking the 3rd Commandment.
Leviticus 5:4 is the crucial verse for understanding how we ought to deal with monogamy-only vows. God has ALREADY given us a way to deal with them. Namely, repentance of our foolishness and ignorance, and receiving His forgiveness.
But end point: to make such a vow is a sin. It is one thing to have full knowledge of polygyny as a Biblical option and to choose, with God's leading, to give it up. As it is to choose celibacy. It is another to be defrauded into making such a vow in ignorance... not just ignorance, but with the truth purposefully kept from us. And you know what the Bible says about those who lead others to sin.
So it isn't just that we have been defrauded. It's that we have been led in to sin. >:<
VV76, delete this if it leads the thread too far astray, or if it's too far off by itself, but just a quick one on Lev 5:4 (h/t to EternalDreamer for getting me to focus on this over the weekend)....
The foolish vow thing is part of a set of actions that would permanently defile someone if there were not a remedy, and that remedy is confession and forgiveness. The implication seems to be pretty clear to me (seems, pretty, to me - a triple qualification) that the confession and forgiveness neutralizes the effect of the sin; in the case of vows, it would absolve the hasty/foolish/rash vower of the obligation to keep the vow (or else it doesn't really 'fix' the situation).
Somebody's going to spiritualize away the forgiveness part with something like "you can be forgiven for what you did and still have to pay the penalty". I would ask that person to come back later after doing a word study on the concept of "forgiveness" and considering how we may have screwed up that word in our modern culture.
In any event, if I were discussing the monogamous vows we assumed were legit when we were younger and whether they are binding on us once we realize they are not legit from a biblical perspective, this is the passage I'd start with. The decision to trust one's church leaders and parents and cultural thought leaders on the legitimacy of appropriate vows for instituting a marriage, instead of somehow deciding to do a massive research project on God's standards on the hunch that maybe you're being misled, could appropriately be described as a rash or foolish vow, for which God has provided a remedy so long as one takes appropriate steps of confession and repentance upon discovery. Makes sense to me.
That's the Contemporary English Version. If someone wants to roll out a different translation, go for it and we can have that discussion, but I chose this one for its direct language. (Note though, that I think other translations that read "foolish promise" or "rash promise" are more what we're talking about with marriage vows.)
The foolish vow thing is part of a set of actions that would permanently defile someone if there were not a remedy, and that remedy is confession and forgiveness. The implication seems to be pretty clear to me (seems, pretty, to me - a triple qualification) that the confession and forgiveness neutralizes the effect of the sin; in the case of vows, it would absolve the hasty/foolish/rash vower of the obligation to keep the vow (or else it doesn't really 'fix' the situation).
Somebody's going to spiritualize away the forgiveness part with something like "you can be forgiven for what you did and still have to pay the penalty". I would ask that person to come back later after doing a word study on the concept of "forgiveness" and considering how we may have screwed up that word in our modern culture.
In any event, if I were discussing the monogamous vows we assumed were legit when we were younger and whether they are binding on us once we realize they are not legit from a biblical perspective, this is the passage I'd start with. The decision to trust one's church leaders and parents and cultural thought leaders on the legitimacy of appropriate vows for instituting a marriage, instead of somehow deciding to do a massive research project on God's standards on the hunch that maybe you're being misled, could appropriately be described as a rash or foolish vow, for which God has provided a remedy so long as one takes appropriate steps of confession and repentance upon discovery. Makes sense to me.
Rashly or thoughtlessly seems to be the best translation. Its the thoughtlessness, even if the vows were to do a good thing, that is the problem. So if you vowed to do a good thing, I don't think this means you should necessarily now not do it; unless upon further thought you found it unwise. (presuming you're right about the forgiveness thing).
The question is, how much thought is required to make it not thoughtless?
The question is, how much thought is required to make it not thoughtless?
Thoughtlessly is perfect; rash is second. Hasty overemphasizes the speed; foolish is a moral judgment. But thoughtless exactly communicates the idea of 'acting without thinking' (which is typically too quickly, and often foolish, but that's not the foundational issue).
I'm speaking as someone thinking about how this applies to marriage vows. I'm no Hebrew scholar, and would defer to Ish or anyone else that is qualified to turn this in a different direction, but until that happens, the sense of what happens when a young man makes an unexamined promise on the basis of faulty information from trusted advisers is that he's 'acting without examining and thinking for himself'. And Leviticus says that's a sin.
And yes, the fact that it applies to vows to do good as well as bad gives one pause for thought. If 'acting without thinking' for good or evil is a sin, then we should all be taking a hard look at what other areas there might be in which we are assuming things to be true that ain't necessarily so....
I'm speaking as someone thinking about how this applies to marriage vows. I'm no Hebrew scholar, and would defer to Ish or anyone else that is qualified to turn this in a different direction, but until that happens, the sense of what happens when a young man makes an unexamined promise on the basis of faulty information from trusted advisers is that he's 'acting without examining and thinking for himself'. And Leviticus says that's a sin.
And yes, the fact that it applies to vows to do good as well as bad gives one pause for thought. If 'acting without thinking' for good or evil is a sin, then we should all be taking a hard look at what other areas there might be in which we are assuming things to be true that ain't necessarily so....
I mean we have two perfect examples of this being carried out: with David and Abigail/Nabaal and with Joseph's brothers.
David vows to kill all of Nabaal's family, but Abigail apologizes and convinces him to forgive/undo his own vow. In fact he praises her for convincing him not to go through with a vow that would have made him a murderer. One could argue that a vow to monogamy when God has desired to entrust one of His other daughters to you is a vow to be cruel. How blessed are we that God has put wisdom through the Holy Spirit or people in to our lives, like Abigail, to show us our need to repent of our foolish vows!
I dont think anyone could argue that Jepthah's vow was anything but rash... the daughters of Israel even commemorated the event with mourning! If only he had known Leviticus well enough to know God's already-prescribed solution! And his innocent daughter would still have been alive.
David vows to kill all of Nabaal's family, but Abigail apologizes and convinces him to forgive/undo his own vow. In fact he praises her for convincing him not to go through with a vow that would have made him a murderer. One could argue that a vow to monogamy when God has desired to entrust one of His other daughters to you is a vow to be cruel. How blessed are we that God has put wisdom through the Holy Spirit or people in to our lives, like Abigail, to show us our need to repent of our foolish vows!
I dont think anyone could argue that Jepthah's vow was anything but rash... the daughters of Israel even commemorated the event with mourning! If only he had known Leviticus well enough to know God's already-prescribed solution! And his innocent daughter would still have been alive.
And yeah I mean, again, back to VV76's original point...if we had this full knowledge beforehand and were making vows of monogamy out of choice and wisdom, a sense of leading...that is totally different. But I dont think any of us are in that position...
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The word that keeps coming to mind for me is disenfranchised.
Another one similar is abdicate. Both result in separation from something you’re entitled to, the difference is that the first is done to you regardless of your rights and the other is something you choose to do where you knowingly give up your rights.
Another one similar is abdicate. Both result in separation from something you’re entitled to, the difference is that the first is done to you regardless of your rights and the other is something you choose to do where you knowingly give up your rights.
Sooo...... abdisenfranchisedicated?
It rolls of the tongue really nice on about the eighth repeat.
Nope, not even close. Maybe I’ll get it down next week.
Shoot, remember Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious?
You could, but I think if you are being so overtly legal in your marriage you are already defeated. If your wife loves you she will not hold you to a vow that is based on a fraud. If you love your wife you are not going to even consider voiding the marriage simply because she is human and can not keep her side perfectly. Heaven forbid! You need to work out your relationship with grace, love and forgiveness for each other. You want to be on the same team and help each other to be successful.
To be perfectly honest I can not even remember exactly what vows we spoke when we got married. Traditional ones I assume. But all along we have always wanted to have a marriage that glorifies God. You do not have that by doing the minimum of keeping your vows. You do that by having a relationship that reflects the living relationship of Christ and the church. We have always wanted and based our marriage on what is taught in the Bible. With this understanding, I think it is easier to transition when one has a new understandng of what God's will is, and what God expects from marriage, etc. It is not really about what we said 35 years ago. It is about what the Bible says today. If we are both following the Lord and the teachings of the Bible then we go down the path together and face the challenges that we find together as we go.
Someone just got outed!!!
"Monogamy Only" is a lie from Satan brother. One that causes real heartache, pain and damage to people, families and society.
I thank God every day that he honored me by letting me know his truth.
I know right! This is how I feel, too. We are part of God's mission.
I am not so great. Why did he pick me to be a part of this? But he did. I am humbled and honored. I pray that I am worthy and faithful to his truth.